Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

There's no point belittling the Khoirokhitians just to score points.

All the latest findings point to these people being one and the same (GR! even supplied the haplotype ) as the ones which continued to travel a bit further north and founded the parallel communities on the mainland. The Khoirokhitians may even have come back down from the "Slavic" regions having left offshoots on the mainland. There would have been many interactions, boating to and fro) between this one main group, until most of the habitable Med. islands were discovered by scouting.

[DTA]

i still dont get why the almighty choirokitian civilization empire gets so much attention here....sure it was advanced for the time but really???? you belittle Hellenic civilization and all its grandeur and rich historical significance with constant reference to choirokitia?

Im from there and i literally couldnt give 2 shits about a small village of neolithic black people.

Wow you are a complete racist

[Klik]

Dorians were a Greek tribe. competing Greek city-states of Athens and Sparta always went to war against each other but that doesnt mean they werent Greek city states. Go back to your youtube to learn history you silly twit.

Study this map and pay attention where the Dorians came from to invade Greeks...

Those are all the same people. They would have arisen from that broad sweeping arrow of ONE haplotype you presented earlier!

Here is a link to a another forum with information on Y DNA Haplogroups, which I pass on as is, without responsibility and without guarantee as to relaibility. All I can say is that the the very ancient occupants of what is now Greece, pre Myceanaens, and the Cypriots of that time, appear to be from the same gene pool but the Myceneans and Dorains were not.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25163

in particular
quote
Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).#
unquote

Cyprus remains high in J2 not R1. That suggest the Myceaneans and later Greek Tribes did not have a great genetic impact on the Cypriot poplation

There are some other intersting comments on this site about genetics.

I guess that's really the "underdog" of all speculations

Pelasgians were Greeks as much as the Dorians and Myceaneans and Minoans... Pelasgians also migrated to northern Italy and then were called the "Etruscans" The term Pelasgian is messed up, but the same applied to the Hellene which meant not Christian during the Byzantine even if the person was a Hellene in actuality...

Trojans were Greek as well.
There's no doubt that there were some indigenous men on mainland Greece before the majority arrived from the western Steppes, but only a time machine can help you with that.

As for an ancient Greek invasion, that is all crap because simply Greece in ancient times was multiracist... All those different races united under one 'banner' and were called the Hellenes. They together formed their language, together built their cities and monuments and together did everything.

It's like saying who is more American between the English, Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch, French who went there to create the USA but some 5000 years after Hellas was created...

Basically the Pelasgians = Ionians

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE% ... E%BF%CE%AF

Everything is here but you need to translate it from Greek (Herodotus quotes on Pelasgians)

[Get Real!]

Im from there and i literally couldnt give 2 shits about a small village of neolithic black people.

In your case you should first lookup “ignorance and stupidity” and then come back to this…

The Committee inscribed the site on the World Heritage List on the basis of criteria (ii), (iii) and (iv):

Criterion (ii): In the prehistoric period, Cyprus played a key role in the transmission of culture from the Near East to the European world.

Criterion (iii): Choirokhoitia is an exceptionally well preserved archaeological site that has provided, and will continue to provide, scientific data of great importance relating to the spread of civilization from Asia to the Mediterranean world.

Criterion (iv): Both the excavated remains and the untouched part of Choirokhoitia demonstrate clearly the origins of protourban settlement in the Mediterranean region and beyond.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/848

[Oracle]

Ancient Greeks

Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).#
unquote

Cyprus remains high in J2 not R1. That suggest the Myceaneans and later Greek Tribes did not have a great genetic impact on the Cypriot poplation

Klik has unified the loose ends brilliantly, for us.

If you make a dendrogram of a significant number of markers instead of randomly picking ONE, and making a sweeping statement, you'll find that all these tribes were highly related and not just because of the low population levels of the time.

Besides, your comparisons demonstrate that a number of related, near-kin, tribes joined forces (in the mainland) before the ~ 6th Century BCE when the Hellenic Nation had its commonly accepted creation. By then, Cyprus was indisputably Hellenic too.

[AEKTZIS]

i still dont get why the almighty choirokitian civilization empire gets so much attention here....sure it was advanced for the time but really???? you belittle Hellenic civilization and all its grandeur and rich historical significance with constant reference to choirokitia?

Im from there and i literally couldnt give 2 shits about a small village of neolithic black people.

Wow you are a complete racist

how is that racist?

[AEKTZIS]

There's no point belittling the Khoirokhitians just to score points.

It is EXACTLY what you are doing with the Ancient Greeks!!!!!

Hypocrisy much????

[Oracle]

There's no point belittling the Khoirokhitians just to score points.

It is EXACTLY what you are doing with the Ancient Greeks!!!!!

Hypocrisy much????

Sorry, I don't see how. From what I gather, they were of the same people which colonised the mainland and other Greek islands.

Here's a sister settlement (<7000BCE>) from the mainland, near present day Volos:


http://www.greeklandscapes.com/image-slides/sesklo/

[supporttheunderdog]

I guess that's really the "underdog" of all speculations

Pelasgians were Greeks as much as the Dorians and Myceaneans and Minoans... Pelasgians also migrated to northern Italy and then were called the "Etruscans" The term Pelasgian is messed up, but the same applied to the Hellene which meant not Christian during the Byzantine even if the person was a Hellene in actuality...

Trojans were Greek as well.
There's no doubt that there were some indigenous men on mainland Greece before the majority arrived from the western Steppes, but only a time machine can help you with that.

As for an ancient Greek invasion, that is all crap because simply Greece in ancient times was multiracist... All those different races united under one 'banner' and were called the Hellenes. They together formed their language, together built their cities and monuments and together did everything.

It's like saying who is more American between the English, Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch, French who went there to create the USA but some 5000 years after Hellas was created...

Basically the Pelasgians = Ionians

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE% ... E%BF%CE%AF

Everything is here but you need to translate it from Greek (Herodotus quotes on Pelasgians)

Is this the same but in English?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

On the Trojans seee the following

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_language

These all sugegsts that it could be streching it a bit to call either the Pelasagians or the Tojansd/Wilusisn/Hittes from Troy as Greeks as they did not speak greek, as we think it was spoken by the four major Hellebistic tribes, the Achean/Mycenean, the Inonia, ther Doric and the Aeolinais: further the evidence that the Etruscans were Pelasgians appears week as liguitically their language is not obvioulsy Peagsian.

[ZoC]

the only thing more excruciating than a greek going on and on and on about the glories of ancient greece, is a cypriot doing it.