Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

It makes it very difficult to follow you. What were we arguing about?

I understand that but I'm not sure why it doesn't work. If anybody has any ideas let me know. We were arguing about the Brits I think.

Which was a collection of rival, often warring city states who united only in the face of Persian oppression. But anyway, Cyprus has its own flag.

Ancient Greece was, correct. I'm not sure how that is relevant. They didn't use today's Greek flag anyway. Cyprus does have its own flag, which was my flag of choice for a long time on this forum. But I also like the Greek flag, so I'm now using this for a while as a Greek Cypriot. This is my personal choice.

Cypriots in the north are not necessarily of Turkish origin, some converted to Islam in the face of Ottoman oppression. These and all who consider themselves Cypriots in the north should be allowed, invited, encouraged to work with us to open the world's eyes.

I agree. The problem is, if they support Turkish intransigence, it doesn't make much difference. I also agree, they should be encouraged to work with us. I believe they are being encouraged. The problem is there just isn't enough of them. Maybe this will change in the future, but there isn't much sign of that so I won't hold my breath.

And the world's... when you fly it's flag. They don't understand the subtleties.

Forgive me, The Cypriot, but that is nonsense. There are Greek flags all over Cyprus, does this mean it is government policy to unite Cyprus with Greece? Of course not. It is my constitutional right to be able to fly the Greek flag, as a member of the Greek Cypriot community. There are Turkish flags everywhere in the north, including that huge flag on Pentadaktilos. They remove their flags and quit calling northern Cyprus Turkish, and I may remove mine. It works both ways. If you are right and the world does assume what you say, then the world is too ignorant to contribute anything to Cyprus, and should be educated, or else just leave the solution to the Cypriots.

This isn't the same. There was no argument. He was black.

My point though is that there is no argument for me either, I am Greek Cypriot. The way he would oppose you is the way I'm doing now.

It isn't denied. It's you who deny, ignore or play down all the island's other heritages, like you did for the Maronites, heritages that together make us all Cypriots.

I'm not ignoring anybody's heritage The Cypriot. I support the Republic of Cyprus and all its diversity. The Turks deny it, by changing place names in the north, and trying to establish a Turkish state, removing its indigenous population. I focus on Cyprus' Greek heritage, because that is the predominant one and because I'm a Greek Cypriot. A Maronite Cypriot would undoubtedly focus more on his community. It is just natural.

Oh, and I just found out what was going wrong with the quotes.

[Oracle]

Your problems with comprehension seem rather selective, 'The Cypriot' ....

Whilst you talk of building bridges with Turkey (a noun you avoid), you seem more than happy to burn them, regarding Greece.

[Simon]

Your problems with comprehension seem rather selective, 'The Cypriot' ....

Whilst you talk of building bridges with Turkey (a noun you avoid), you seem more than happy to burn them, regarding Greece.

The problem with Greek Cypriots is that they seem to have a self-destruct button. I understand many hate the junta, but why despise what is our closest ally, which we share so much with. It is not a choice between Cyprus or Greece, so I don't understand why some think it is.

[The Cypriot]

Your problems with comprehension seem rather selective, 'The Cypriot' ....

Whilst you talk of building bridges with Turkey (a noun you avoid), you seem more than happy to burn them, regarding Greece.

You got me all wrong, O. I certainly wouldn't want Cyprus to burn bridges with any of the EU family of nations, including our closest sister Greece.

By the way, the bridges I want to build are with Cypriots in the north. I avoided the noun 'Turkey' because I wasn't actually referring to 'Turkey'. You're too quick at jumping to conclusions, O.

[The Cypriot]

Ancient Greece was, correct. I'm not sure how that is relevant. They didn't use today's Greek flag anyway. Cyprus does have its own flag, which was my flag of choice for a long time on this forum. But I also like the Greek flag, so I'm now using this for a while as a Greek Cypriot. This is my personal choice.

I have no problem with the flag of modern Greece aesthetically. I respect your choice but I don't think displaying it everywhere does Cyprus any favours. It makes outsiders think the Cyprus problem is simply a Greek/Turk thing, rather than one of continued foreign occupation.

The problem is, if they support Turkish intransigence, it doesn't make much difference. I also agree, they should be encouraged to work with us. I believe they are being encouraged. The problem is there just isn't enough of them. Maybe this will change in the future, but there isn't much sign of that so I won't hold my breath.

We can only hope more will come to their senses if we encourage them to do so.

There are Turkish flags everywhere in the north, including that huge flag on Pentadaktilos. They remove their flags and quit calling northern Cyprus Turkish, and I may remove mine. It works both ways.

Valis don nu su me da mora? (You put your mind with the kids?). Remember the Aesop fable? The argument between the wind and the sun over who could remove the man's coat? The angry wind blew and blew to remove it but the man only clenched the coat tigher. When the sun shone, the wind scoffed. How could just shining wrestle the man from his coat? But the man took it off eventually. It was the warmth that did it.

If you are right and the world does assume what you say, then the world is too ignorant to contribute anything to Cyprus, and should be educated, or else just leave the solution to the Cypriots.

You know the world is too ignorant. The solution should be left to Cypriots.

My point though is that there is no argument for me either, I am Greek Cypriot. The way he would oppose you is the way I'm doing now.

Now we're going round in circle. I'm not going to retype all my old posts. But I'll say this: if you are a part of the majority in Cyprus, why qualify ourselves...? To get back to the Brits, they don't have to qualify themselves as Anglo-Saxon-Brits, to differentiate themselves from the newer arrivals. They are Brits, and if minorities wish to qualify themselves as Black-Brits, Asian-Brits or Cypriot-Brits, that's up to them. If Cypriots in the north want to qualify themselves as newer arrivals, as Turkish Cypriots, that's up to them; but that makes them a minority. And as you know, they don't like to be considered a minority. Maybe we'd all be better off if we were just Cypriots.

I'm not ignoring anybody's heritage The Cypriot. I support the Republic of Cyprus and all its diversity. The Turks deny it, by changing place names in the north, and trying to establish a Turkish state, removing its indigenous population. I focus on Cyprus' Greek heritage, because that is the predominant one and because I'm a Greek Cypriot. A Maronite Cypriot would undoubtedly focus more on his community. It is just natural.

The worth of any democracy is determined by how well it treats its minorities. We majority Cypriots should focus on all Cypriots who suffer from foreign oppression, including those in the north, suffering under the oppression caused by Turkey's army and who need our help, who need a hand of friendship to pull them free.

[Simon]

I have no problem with the flag of modern Greece aesthetically. I respect your choice but I don't think displaying it everywhere does Cyprus any favours. It makes outsiders think the Cyprus problem is simply a Greek/Turk thing, rather than one of continued foreign occupation.

I think outsiders know full well that this is about continued Turkish occupation. This is why we have UN Resolutions and repeated calls elsewhere for Turkey to remove its troops. There is nothing wrong with Greek Cypriots displaying the flag of Greece as long as they respect the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.

The Cypriot wrote:

We can only hope more will come to their senses if we encourage them to do so.

We can hope, and if they don't come to their senses, other options will have to eventually be considered.

Valis don nu su me da mora? (You put your mind with the kids?). Remember the Aesop fable? The argument between the wind and the sun over who could remove the man's coat? The angry wind blew and blew to remove it but the man only clenched the coat tigher. When the sun shone, the wind scoffed. How could just shining wrestle the man from his coat? But the man took it off eventually. It was the warmth that did it.

Are you calling the Turkish Cypriots children? I understand compromise. If me having a Greek flag offends them, then they should remove their Turkish flags. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. As far as I'm concerned, I only ever see Greek Cypriots making the compromises. A BBF was a compromise for us. If the flag doesn't bother them, then where is the problem? We should focus on more important issues which they are concerned with.

The Cypriot wrote:

You know the world is too ignorant. The solution should be left to Cypriots.

Agreed, but it was you who brought the world up.

The Cypriot wrote:

Now we're going round in circle. I'm not going to retype all my old posts. But I'll say this: if you are a part of the majority in Cyprus, why qualify ourselves...? To get back to the Brits, they don't have to qualify themselves as Anglo-Saxon-Brits, to differentiate themselves from the newer arrivals. They are Brits, and if minorities wish to qualify themselves as Black-Brits, Asian-Brits or Cypriot-Brits, that's up to them. If Cypriots in the north want to qualify themselves as newer arrivals, as Turkish Cypriots, that's up to them; but that makes them a minority. And as you know, they don't like to be considered a minority. Maybe we'd all be better off if we were just Cypriots.

But Britain has a completely different history from Cyprus. Therefore, the mindset of the British is bound to be different. However, I do not believe what you say is valid in any event. Because the majority of the British are English. They don't use the term 'anglo-saxon' but they DO call themselves English, to differentiate themselves from other Britons, i.e. Scottish, Welsh etc. The term England is derived from 'Angles' from the Germanic tribe of the anglo-saxons. So you see, your comparison is not valid. However, I have no problem with people identifying as simply Cypriot. What I do have a problem with is when people try to deny that the majority of Cypriots are culturally and ethnically Greek, because we clearly are. This does not mean that we cannot unite with the TCs, far from it. We should embrace all our differences, because it is what makes Cyprus and enriches it. But denying or ignoring our heritage, to attempt an artificial national unity will just lead to resentment and failure. It must be a union based on transparency and honesty, which will lead to trust.

The Cypriot wrote:

The worth of any democracy is determined by how well it treats its minorities. We majority Cypriots should focus on all Cypriots who suffer from foreign oppression, including those in the north, suffering under the oppression caused by Turkey's army and who need our help, who need a hand of friendship to pull them free.

Our government does treat its minorities well. I do not represent all of Cyprus' minorities personally, but only myself, and if a specific question regarding the minorities arised, I would support them. If by referring to those in the north, you mean the TCs, again I think you misunderstand their mindset. Apart from a small minority, they see Turkey as their saviour, not their oppressor. Why do you think they want partition? I'm not sure what TCs you talk to, but you seem to have the wrong impression. Remember also, that the majority of the "TRNC" are Turkish settlers. So the north is more Turkish than ever and any new solution must satisfy them also. They certainly do not see Turkey as an oppressor.

[wyoming cowboy]

What the Tc's dont seem to be able to wrap their arms around is that one man one vote means democracy. Their is a majority ethnic group and a minority. In a democracy the minority cannot have the right to oppress the majority, therefore a minority cannot have an equal voice as the majority in a democracy. When they agreed in 1960 for a republic democracy and given veto power they thought they could control the majority in all aspects of running the country

[DT.]

SImon go into your profile and personal information options and press "always allow BBCode"

[The Cypriot]

There is nothing wrong with Greek Cypriots displaying the flag of Greece as long as they respect the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus.

Cyprus's ancient connections with the Arcadians, Myceneans, Byzantines etc. (which you collectively term "Greek") has nothing to do with the flag of modern Greece. Perhaps we ought to find an alternative, more accurate, symbol to illustrate this connection, if this connection continues to be so important to us.

There is nothing to differentiate those flyers of the flag of modern Greece who respect the island's sovereignty – and those flyers of the flag of modern Greece who don't; and who think Cyprus is Greek and should unite with modern Greece.

The same is true of the flag of Turkey. If I saw a Cypriot in the north flying the flag of Turkey, I'd conclude he was a believer in Taksim, and sided with the invader. If he said, "You've got me all wrong. I am merely exercising my rights under the 1960 constitution and I respect the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus," I'd say, "pese bu jindo blevron!" (pull the other one).

Simon, are you Greek? And by that I mean, are you from Greece rather than Cyprus? I ask because of a comment GR made about you being married to a Cypriot.

Are you calling the Turkish Cypriots children?

Anyone who can't let go of their mother is still a child.

As far as I'm concerned, I only ever see Greek Cypriots making the compromises. A BBF was a compromise for us.

I agree with you on this.

The Cypriot wrote:

You know the world is too ignorant. The solution should be left to Cypriots.

Agreed, but it was you who brought the world up.

Now who's being naive? The solution must be decided by Cypriots, but it will take the world to impose it.

But Britain has a completely different history from Cyprus.

Cyprus is indeed unique.

What I do have a problem with is when people try to deny that the majority of Cypriots are culturally and ethnically Greek, because we clearly are.

I have a problem with people who deny Cypriots have a culture and heritage all their own that is unique. Because we clearly have. And ethnicity too. But I am not going to repeat all my previous posts.

But denying or ignoring our heritage, to attempt an artificial national unity

It is you who is denying and ignoring the rich blend of cultures that makes Cyprus unique and focuses on one (or actually half a dozen, which you collectively call "Greek").

The nation state is an articial construct. Borders throughout Europe are arbitrary. Look at France and Germany, where there are French speakers in Germany and vice versa. Cyprus, at least, has the advantage of being an island.

It must be a union based on transparency and honesty, which will lead to trust.

Agreed.

Our government does treat its minorities well. I do not represent all of Cyprus' minorities personally, but only myself, and if a specific question regarding the minorities arised, I would support them.

That's good.

If by referring to those in the north, you mean the TCs,

Not all of them are Turkish in origin, some if not most are Cypriots who relinquished their faith during the arduous years of Ottoman rule. TC is therefore not necessarily accurate a term.

again I think you misunderstand their mindset. Apart from a small minority, they see Turkey as their saviour, not their oppressor. Why do you think they want partition? I'm not sure what TCs you talk to, but you seem to have the wrong impression.

Many TCs who think they are Turkish in origin have the wrong impression. That may be why they want partition. Many of the TCs I talk to see themselves as Cypriots.

Remember also, that the majority of the "TRNC" are Turkish settlers. So the north is more Turkish than ever and any new solution must satisfy them also. They certainly do not see Turkey as an oppressor.

With this I don't disagree.

[Piratis]

The Cypriot,

Cypriots are as Greek as any other Greek. You talked about analogous examples earlier on. What more analogous in the case of Cyprus than the other Greek islands. Take Crete or Rhodes for example. How much do they differ from Cyprus? They even had more or less the same rulers, and they also had Turkish/Muslim minorities on them due to the fact they have also been under Ottoman rule.

If Cypriots were allowed their self-determination then today Cyprus would be part of the Greek state like most other Greek islands, similar to how Rhodes united with Greece in 1947.

If you disagree with me, then please tell me why Cretans or Rhodians are Greeks and Cypriots are not. I will wait for your detailed explanation.

Moving forward, lets examine if it is for our interest to change our identity to something else, e.i. "just Cypriot", and if this can help us. Personally I don't see how this can help in any way. Turkey cares to serve her own geopolitical interests, and how we call ourselves will not change this even the slightest.

When it comes to the TCs, it will again make no difference if they are an ethnic (Turkish) minority , or a linguistic (Turkish speaking) and religious(Muslim) minority. Either way they will continue to collaborate with Turkey in order to get a lot more than what belongs to an 18% minority, on our expense.

So we can gain absolutely nothing from doing such thing. On the contrary we have a lot to lose:

It is the Turks and the British who started the propaganda that supposedly Cypriots are not Greeks, to use this as an excuse for denying to Cypriots their right to unite their island with Greece. If we now accept their lame allegations we would be justifying the actions they took to oppress the Cypriot revolution and deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

Also, we would alienate the rest of Greeks even more, and help the Turks to isolate us even further.

So there is no reason to change who we are, because doing so can only help the Turks and not us.