Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

I think we Cypriots have done quite enough for her.

Cyprus and Greece should never stop helping each other where possible to do so.

There was no such thing as the Turkish nation when the Ottomans invaded Cyprus just as there was no such thing as the Greek nation when the Arcadians colonised Cyprus, followed by all the others. It is an exercise in semantics. Some of them and some of us, identify with these modern nations, after the event. I'm pointing this out in the hope that some will see that the prefixes differentiating Cypriots of Sunni Muslim and orthodox Christian extraction are actually misnomers.

There was such thing as a Greek nation in a broad sense, just not a unified one, and there certainly was a Greek identity.

[Piratis]

The Cypriot,

Cypriots are as Greek as any other Greek.

Hi Pirati. I welcome the opportunity to joust with you. Last time I looked we Cypriots had our own seat at the EU. That makes us different. And would you want to give up that seat, and it's associated veto right, to become another Greek backwater?

I would prefer to have my whole island, like Cretans do, rather than a seat in EU. Besides, Greece gets 24MEPs, so Cypriots could still very easily be elected in this position.

You talked about analogous examples earlier on. What more analogous in the case of Cyprus than the other Greek islands. Take Crete or Rhodes for example. How much do they differ from Cyprus?

They are part of modern mainland Greece. Cyprus is not. Cyprus has its own seat at the EU, with associated veto rights on Turkey's accession.

We would have veto rights as part of Greece as well.

They even had more or less the same rulers, and they also had Turkish/Muslim minorities on them due to the fact they have also been under Ottoman rule.

I don't disagree.

If Cypriots were allowed their self-determination then today Cyprus would be part of the Greek state like most other Greek islands, similar to how Rhodes united with Greece in 1947.

But I don't believe that's what you want for Cypriots in 2009. Or do you?

What I want for Cypriots is to be allowed to decide democratically whatever they want for their own island. If the majority of Cypriots still want to unite Cyprus with Greece, would you side with the foreign imperialists in order to deny to Cypriots their rights? And do you excuse the imperialists for denying this right to us before the establishment of the RoC?

If you disagree with me, then please tell me why Cretans or Rhodians are Greeks and Cypriots are not. I will wait for your detailed explanation.

You don't need a detailed explanation. Cretans and Rhodians, whether they like it or not, are part of modern Greece. Cypriots, whether they like it or not, are not.

The Imperialists could deny to Cypriots their right to unite with Greece, but no, they can not deny to us to be Greeks.

Moving forward, lets examine if it is for our interest to change our identity

Who said anything about changing? Acknowledging our true identity is what I'm talking about. Maybe Cretans and Rhodians don't have that opportunity, as we do, as they've been subsumed by modern Greece.

Our true identity is Greek. Our language, our religion, our culture and everything. There is less difference between Cypriots and Athenians than there is between Londoners and Liverpudlians, or between North and South USA, or between West and East Turkey. And when you compare Cyprus with some other Greek island the differences are even fewer.

Cretans and Rhodians are very glad to be secure in the Greek State, and they wouldn't change this for any pseudo independence.

to something else, e.i. "just Cypriot", and if this can help us. Personally I don't see how this can help in any way. Turkey cares to serve her own geopolitical interests, and how we call ourselves will not change this even the slightest.

Perhaps you're right. I realise Turkey has its own geopolitical interests, as has modern Greece. I think our cause is best served by trying to find ways to work together with all Cypriots, for our island's interest.

[/quote]

Sorry to brake your bubble but what you say can't happen. Turkey promises to their Turkish minority gains on the expense of everybody else, and the TCs are not going to give up (voluntarily) any gains on our expense just so they can serve the interests of the island as a whole.

When it comes to the TCs, it will again make no difference if they are an ethnic (Turkish) minority , or a linguistic (Turkish speaking) and religious(Muslim) minority. Either way they will continue to collaborate with Turkey in order to get a lot more than what belongs to an 18% minority, on our expense.

You may be right. But we must try. I have met a number of Cypriots from the north who think as Cypriots - as I do, as I wish you did.

I am more Cypriot than you will ever be, real one, like Cyprioits have been for 1000s of years. Not some "Cypriot" identity that was imposed on us by foreigners less than 50 years ago. So don't lecture me on this.

And if you found TCs who are willing to give up the privileges and land granted to them on our expense, then tell me how many they are? 5? 6?

So we can gain absolutely nothing from doing such thing. On the contrary we have a lot to lose:

I disagree, Pirati.

It is the Turks and the British who started the propaganda that supposedly Cypriots are not Greeks, to use this as an excuse for denying to Cypriots their right to unite their island with Greece.

But is that what you want, Pirati? In 2009, and with Cyprus safely in the EU? Union with Greece?

I answered your question already. But you avoid answering mine.

If we now accept their lame allegations we would be justifying the actions they took to oppress the Cypriot revolution and deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

As Cypriots, with our own seat at the EU and UN, we have more chance of self-determination than if we were a backwater of modern Greece.

I disagree. Compare Cyprus with Crete and tell me who has more control over their own islands. Us or the Cretans?

Also, we would alienate the rest of Greeks even more, and help the Turks to isolate us even further.

I don't think we would alienate Greeks. I think they'd respect us, admire us, envy us even, for being able to stand on our own two feet. (Especially the Cretans and the Rhodians). I've met many Greeks and they love Cyprus's unique culture, our food, the way we speak. The Turks can't isolate us now. We're in the EU, we have enosis with the whole of Europe. On our terms.

How is respect,admiration, envy and liking our food make any difference? You keep talking about EU, and you forget that without Greece Cyprus would never enter the EU. Do you think they blackmailed the whole EU telling them that without Cyprus there would be no EU expansion because they like our food?

So, in conclusion,

1) you admitted that by denying our Greek identity Turkey will not change its policy

2) you admitted that TCs will not change either, although you have some unrealistic dream that magically they will give up the gains provided to them by Turkey on our expense and they will instead care for the interests of Cyprus as a whole. You are welcome to have dreams, but in debates such as this you have to say logical arguments and support them with facts, dreams don't count.

So from 1 and 2 we conclude that we have nothing to gain from giving up our Greek identity.

I have also shown to you that:

3) By giving up our Greek identity we can only alienate our closest ally. Without Greece we wouldn't be in EU that you keep talking about, but even within EU, the only other country that cares about Cyprus is in fact Greece. The rest don't give a fuck, and some, like UK, are even against us.

So your position that changing our identity to "just Cypriots" will be helpful in some way is baseless and totally wrong.

So there is no reason to change who we are, because doing so can only help the Turks and not us.

We would not be helping the Turks, and by Turks I mean people from Turkey. We would be helping ourselves. And I'm not taking about changing who we are. We are who we are. We are Cypriots.

We are who we are, and we are Cypriot, and Greek and European. If you don't want to change who we are then why are you trying to tell to people what they are or what they should be?

The title of this thread is "How much have we changed from last century?" and you and some others argue that we should supposedly have changed. But no, we are the same people, we were here before 1960, and we were also here long before 1571. Foreigners can rule us and deny to us our freedom and self-determination, but they can not change who we are.

[Oracle]

I would prefer to have my whole island, like Cretans do, rather than a seat in EU. Besides, Greece gets 24MEPs, so Cypriots could still very easily be elected in this position.

That's a good point Piratis.

The EU seat is not in lieu of a whole, unified, free Cyprus. Rather, it was meant to be a means to that end .... not instead of!

[Viewpoint]

The Cypriot,

Cypriots are as Greek as any other Greek.

Hi Pirati. I welcome the opportunity to joust with you. Last time I looked we Cypriots had our own seat at the EU. That makes us different. And would you want to give up that seat, and it's associated veto right, to become another Greek backwater?

I would prefer to have my whole island, like Cretans do, rather than a seat in EU. Besides, Greece gets 24MEPs, so Cypriots could still very easily be elected in this position.

You talked about analogous examples earlier on. What more analogous in the case of Cyprus than the other Greek islands. Take Crete or Rhodes for example. How much do they differ from Cyprus?

They are part of modern mainland Greece. Cyprus is not. Cyprus has its own seat at the EU, with associated veto rights on Turkey's accession.

We would have veto rights as part of Greece as well.

They even had more or less the same rulers, and they also had Turkish/Muslim minorities on them due to the fact they have also been under Ottoman rule.

I don't disagree.

If Cypriots were allowed their self-determination then today Cyprus would be part of the Greek state like most other Greek islands, similar to how Rhodes united with Greece in 1947.

But I don't believe that's what you want for Cypriots in 2009. Or do you?

What I want for Cypriots is to be allowed to decide democratically whatever they want for their own island. If the majority of Cypriots still want to unite Cyprus with Greece, would you side with the foreign imperialists in order to deny to Cypriots their rights? And do you excuse the imperialists for denying this right to us before the establishment of the RoC?

If you disagree with me, then please tell me why Cretans or Rhodians are Greeks and Cypriots are not. I will wait for your detailed explanation.

You don't need a detailed explanation. Cretans and Rhodians, whether they like it or not, are part of modern Greece. Cypriots, whether they like it or not, are not.

The Imperialists could deny to Cypriots their right to unite with Greece, but no, they can not deny to us to be Greeks.

Moving forward, lets examine if it is for our interest to change our identity

Who said anything about changing? Acknowledging our true identity is what I'm talking about. Maybe Cretans and Rhodians don't have that opportunity, as we do, as they've been subsumed by modern Greece.

Our true identity is Greek. Our language, our religion, our culture and everything. There is less difference between Cypriots and Athenians than there is between Londoners and Liverpudlians, or between North and South USA, or between West and East Turkey. And when you compare Cyprus with some other Greek island the differences are even fewer.

Cretans and Rhodians are very glad to be secure in the Greek State, and they wouldn't change this for any pseudo independence.

to something else, e.i. "just Cypriot", and if this can help us. Personally I don't see how this can help in any way. Turkey cares to serve her own geopolitical interests, and how we call ourselves will not change this even the slightest.

Perhaps you're right. I realise Turkey has its own geopolitical interests, as has modern Greece. I think our cause is best served by trying to find ways to work together with all Cypriots, for our island's interest.

Sorry to brake your bubble but what you say can't happen. Turkey promises to their Turkish minority gains on the expense of everybody else, and the TCs are not going to give up (voluntarily) any gains on our expense just so they can serve the interests of the island as a whole.

When it comes to the TCs, it will again make no difference if they are an ethnic (Turkish) minority , or a linguistic (Turkish speaking) and religious(Muslim) minority. Either way they will continue to collaborate with Turkey in order to get a lot more than what belongs to an 18% minority, on our expense.

You may be right. But we must try. I have met a number of Cypriots from the north who think as Cypriots - as I do, as I wish you did.

I am more Cypriot than you will ever be, real one, like Cyprioits have been for 1000s of years. Not some "Cypriot" identity that was imposed on us by foreigners less than 50 years ago. So don't lecture me on this.

And if you found TCs who are willing to give up the privileges and land granted to them on our expense, then tell me how many they are? 5? 6?

So we can gain absolutely nothing from doing such thing. On the contrary we have a lot to lose:

I disagree, Pirati.

It is the Turks and the British who started the propaganda that supposedly Cypriots are not Greeks, to use this as an excuse for denying to Cypriots their right to unite their island with Greece.

But is that what you want, Pirati? In 2009, and with Cyprus safely in the EU? Union with Greece?

I answered your question already. But you avoid answering mine.

If we now accept their lame allegations we would be justifying the actions they took to oppress the Cypriot revolution and deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

As Cypriots, with our own seat at the EU and UN, we have more chance of self-determination than if we were a backwater of modern Greece.

I disagree. Compare Cyprus with Crete and tell me who has more control over their own islands. Us or the Cretans?

Also, we would alienate the rest of Greeks even more, and help the Turks to isolate us even further.

I don't think we would alienate Greeks. I think they'd respect us, admire us, envy us even, for being able to stand on our own two feet. (Especially the Cretans and the Rhodians). I've met many Greeks and they love Cyprus's unique culture, our food, the way we speak. The Turks can't isolate us now. We're in the EU, we have enosis with the whole of Europe. On our terms.

How is respect,admiration, envy and liking our food make any difference? You keep talking about EU, and you forget that without Greece Cyprus would never enter the EU. Do you think they blackmailed the whole EU telling them that without Cyprus there would be no EU expansion because they like our food?

So, in conclusion,

1) you admitted that by denying our Greek identity Turkey will not change its policy

2) you admitted that TCs will not change either, although you have some unrealistic dream that magically they will give up the gains provided to them by Turkey on our expense and they will instead care for the interests of Cyprus as a whole. You are welcome to have dreams, but in debates such as this you have to say logical arguments and support them with facts, dreams don't count.

So from 1 and 2 we conclude that we have nothing to gain from giving up our Greek identity.

I have also shown to you that:

3) By giving up our Greek identity we can only alienate our closest ally. Without Greece we wouldn't be in EU that you keep talking about, but even within EU, the only other country that cares about Cyprus is in fact Greece. The rest don't give a fuck, and some, like UK, are even against us.

So your position that changing our identity to "just Cypriots" will be helpful in some way is baseless and totally wrong.

So there is no reason to change who we are, because doing so can only help the Turks and not us.

We would not be helping the Turks, and by Turks I mean people from Turkey. We would be helping ourselves. And I'm not taking about changing who we are. We are who we are. We are Cypriots.

We are who we are, and we are Cypriot, and Greek and European. If you don't want to change who we are then why are you trying to tell to people what they are or what they should be?

The title of this thread is "How much have we changed from last century?" and you and some others argue that we should supposedly have changed. But no, we are the same people, we were here before 1960, and we were also here long before 1571. Foreigners can rule us and deny to us our freedom and self-determination, but they can not change who we are.[/quote]

This post reeks of enosis, are you still a supporter of this death wish?

[YFred]

VP, Piratis has no blood in his body, he has enosis running through his veins. There is a few others too.

[bill cobbett]

These matters of Enosis or Toksim can easily be resolved by getting the RoG and the RoT to add a couple of sentences to their constitutions and to any new Cy constitution banning them.

Next.

[YFred]

Oh yeh, but will it stop Piratis asking for it? Can they include that in the constitution too?

[The Cypriot]

I would prefer to have my whole island, like Cretans do, rather than a seat in EU. Besides, Greece gets 24MEPs, so Cypriots could still very easily be elected in this position.

So you admit you want enosis.

What I want for Cypriots is to be allowed to decide democratically whatever they want for their own island. If the majority of Cypriots still want to unite Cyprus with Greece, would you side with the foreign imperialists in order to deny to Cypriots their rights?

Would you side with treacherous extremist Greek nationalists to depose the president if the majority of Cypriots want independence but you want to impose union with Greece?

And do you excuse the imperialists for denying this right to us before the establishment of the RoC?

Do you excuse the Junta for what they did in 1974?

The Imperialists could deny to Cypriots their right to unite with Greece, but no, they can not deny to us to be Greeks.

Us? Who is us? EOKA B or EOKA C?

Cretans and Rhodians are very glad to be secure in the Greek State, and they wouldn't change this for any pseudo independence.

Well go and move there where you'll be safe, Pirati. But don't tell them you supported the Junta and what they did to Cyprus, 'cos the Cretans would slice your bollocks off.

I am more Cypriot than you will ever be,

You don't know the meaning of the word.

Not some "Cypriot" identity that was imposed on us by foreigners less than 50 years ago. So don't lecture me on this.

Lecture you? You're beyond redemption.

It is the Turks and the British who started the propaganda that supposedly Cypriots are not Greeks, to use this as an excuse for denying to Cypriots their right to unite their island with Greece.

Go live on Crete. It's united with Greece. You'll be safe there.

If we now accept their lame allegations we would be justifying the actions they took to oppress the Cypriot revolution and deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

What is this? 1955? 1974? Or 2009?

Compare Cyprus with Crete and tell me who has more control over their own islands. Us or the Cretans?

Pirati, we can't turn the clock back to 1955, kill all the Britsh, throw the Muslims into the sea and turn Cyprus into Crete. Stop living in the past and focus on the future.

You keep talking about EU, and you forget that without Greece Cyprus would never enter the EU. Do you think they blackmailed the whole EU telling them that without Cyprus there would be no EU expansion because they like our food?

No, because of guilt, Pirati. To undo the wrongs of 1974.

[bill cobbett]

Oh yeh, but will it stop Piratis asking for it? Can they include that in the constitution too?

Well, the Republic of Ireland inserted a clause in to its constitution a few years ago dropping any claims on Northern Ireland.

[Simon]

Why should Piratis move to Crete The Cypriot?

He is entitled to his democratic view like any other and doesn't need to go anywhere. I thought you hated intolerance?