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[insan]

There r more than enough, factual evidence in the below article that shows Macedonians had never been Hellenes or pseudo-Greeks.

Why Macedonia and the Macedonians had Never been Greek?

1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.

2. Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian conquest, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria.

3. Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Philip II's son took the Macedonian armies even further and conquered the Persian Empire, making Macedonia the largest and most powerful nation in the world for centuries to come. In his army next to the Macedonians, he utilized also troops from the Balkan nations that his father Philip II conquered - Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The Greeks in the Macedonian army however were commanded by Macedonians, their contribution in the conquest was insignificant and miniscule, and modern historiography calls them nothing but Macedonian "hostages" who would ensure a good behavior of their friends and families back in Greece (Peter Green, Urlich Wilcken, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, A.B. Bosworth). Aware that the Greeks despised the Macedonians, Alexander left massive Macedonian occupation troops in their country before heading for the conquest of Persia, although he knew that he would need as many as possible Macedonians for the dangerous campaign ahead. He however rid himself of the Greeks in his army the first chance he got, after burning the Persian capital Persepolis, and learning that the last Greek state Sparta was defeated by the Macedonian troops he left to watch rebellious Greece.

4. Despite all, the Greeks never stopped fighting the Macedonians. While Alexander was conquering Persia with his 25-30,000 Macedonians, more then 50,000 Greeks actually fought on the side of the Persians against the Macedonians (Curtius). The Macedonians slaughtered 18,000 of them in the first battle and sent 2,000 to forced labor in Macedonia (Arrian). After Alexander died the Macedonian general Pithon massacred 23,000 more in a single battle when the Greeks revolted in Bactria (Diodorus). In Greece, when the news of Alexander the Great's death became known, the Greeks united once again and threw out the Macedonians out of their country in the Lamian War (Diodorus). But the Macedonian army returned with massive reinforcements, defeated the Greeks both on land and sea, and re-occupied Greece, putting a bloody end of the Lamian War (Diodorus).

5. The Greeks nevertheless continued raising rebellion after rebellion against the Macedonians to free Greece from the foreign occupation. All successors of Alexander the Great fought them, and the Macedonian king Antigonus II Gonatas fought three Greek uprising who unified against the "barbarous Macedonians" (Diodorus, Plutarch, Justin). Finally in 197 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V was defeated by the joint force of Romans and Greeks, and Macedonia lost Greece after almost 150 years of occupation. When the Romans proclaimed that Greece is free, such an enormous burst of enthusiasm exploded among the Greeks that the Roman general who made the announcement was almost killed by the mass of people that flocked to shake his hand and congratulate him for diving the Macedonians out (Livy, Polybius).

6. After the defeat of the Macedonian king Perseus in 168 BC, and the end of the Macedonian rebellion in 148 BC, Macedonia, Greece, and Carthage became part of the Roman Empire. In 395 AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Greece became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire.

7. Slavs invaded the whole of Balkans in the 6th century, including Macedonia and the whole of Greece, all the way down to the Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians clearly mentioned that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians" and to subdue the independent Slavic tribes in the Peloponnesus in Greece, the Byzantine emperors who were Macedonians, belonging to the Macedonian Dynasty, had to sent "Macedonians and Thracians" against them. Thus the Macedonians and Slavs have been living side by side ever since the 6th century. Over period of centuries these Slavic people mixed into the Macedonians in Macedonia, and with the Greeks in Greece, and laid the foundations for the modern Macedonian and Greek nations. Historical records continue to mention the Macedonians until the fall of the Byzantine Empire. It must be stressed that there is NO record of invasion of Greeks into Macedonia.

8. Turkey conquered the Balkans in the 14th century including Greece and Macedonia. With the help of the western powers, the Greeks freed themselves in the 1820's, but the Macedonians failed to gain freedom with their rebellions in 1870's and in 1903.

9. Independent European and Balkan statistics (except exaggerated Greek sources) from the late 19th and early 20th century show that the Greeks were a small minority of only 10%, living in the most southern parts of Macedonia, bordering Greece.

10. In 1913 Greece and her allies Serbia and Bulgaria, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Greece occupied the largest part, 51% of the whole territory, called Aegean Macedonia.

11. Even Greeks sources, including the king of Greece himself in 1912, confirm that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overwhelming majority of the population were NOT Greeks, confirming the fact that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times (Nikolaides, Spiros Melas Epopee).

12. But since 1913 Greece begun its assimilatory policies against the Macedonians, changing their family names to Greek names, renaming the cities, rivers, and mountains with Greek names, and forbidding the speaking of the Macedonian language.

13. In the mid 1920's Greeks from Asia Minor begun migrating into Aegean Macedonia for a first time ever, and soon the Macedonians found themselves among strangers in their native land, who most vigorously attacked everything that represents the Macedonian nationality and consciousness. In the 1930's the Macedonians were forced to drink castor oil for speaking Macedonian and had to pay financial penalty for every spoken word of Macedonian.

14. In 1991 the Republic of Macedonia, located north of Aegean Macedonia in Greece, became an independent country. The Republic of Macedonia was the part of Macedonia that Serbia occupied with the partition of 1913. In 1945 the Macedonians of the Republic drove away the fascist Albanian, Bulgarian, and German occupation forces and voted to join new federal Yugoslavia because it respected the Macedonian nationality. With the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the early 1990-1, the Macedonians voted independence in a referendum.

15. Afraid that now one part of Macedonia is independent, the Greeks launched a world-wide propaganda against the Macedonians claiming that "Macedonia has been Greek for 4000 years" (sometimes they say 3000 years, 2500, etc. It varies.). Ironically, despite the fact that the ancient Macedonians committed a real genocide against the ancient Greeks, the ancestors of today's Greeks, despite the fact the Macedonians in Greece are oppressed by them, and despite the fact that the Greeks moved in Aegean Macedonia as majority only 75 years ago.

16. While the Greeks only recently begun to launch the amazing claim that they are descendents of the ancient Macedonians (the people who murdered their own ancestors), it should be stressed that at least since the 18th century (DeTott) and including the 19th and 20th century, there are written records which show that the Macedonians claimed direct descendent from the ancient Macedonians in their struggle to free Macedonia from the Turks. That is centuries before Greece took Aegean Macedonia with its army and launched its propaganda.

17. Today, as we enter the 21st century, the Macedonians of Greece continue to be harassed and discriminated by the Greek government, 87 years since Greece took over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonian language is still not recognized, the Macedonian nationality is still denied, and the Macedonians are still forced to have Greek family names, because having a Macedonian name Greece considers illegal. Human Rights Watch (Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece), Amnesty International, and the European Community have the Greek oppression of the Macedonians well documented, found Greece guilty, and demanded that it recognize the Macedonian language and nation and end its oppression. Despite of it, the Macedonians continue to exist in Greece as majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia and as minority in the southern half, and peacefully continue to demand their human rights. Will Greece ever became a democracy?

18. The Greeks and the Macedonians also greatly defer in physical appearance. The Greeks have typically darker tan then the Macedonians who are fair skinned. Historian Arthur Waigell have stated that the same difference in complexion existed between the ancient Greeks and Macedonians, and the ancient Greek historian Plutarch wrote that Alexander the Great had a fair complexion, criticizing a certain Greek sculptor who had given him a darker tan. The fact that both the Greeks and Macedonians have kept their ancient names is proof that both have been aware of, and preserved their lineage since most ancient times. And finally the latest scientific genetic research conducted by the University in Madrid, Spain concluded that the Macedonians are direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians, while the Greeks are unrelated to European origins and to the "older" Mediterranean substratum to which Macedonians belong to.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Conci ... reeks.html

[Oracle]

Has this forum become infested with FYROM propaganda merchants

Stop posting blooming pseudo-information ... This is the Cyprus::Forum, and CREDIBLE EVIDENCE is sacrosanct ... Ask GR!

[insan]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ancie ... sites.html

Jactitations of pseudo-Greeks VS factual evidences of Macedonians.

[insan]

Greek Propagandist Websites
The case of http://truth.macedonia.gr



The following page aim at critically disproving in details the modern Greek claim that the ancient Macedonians were "Greeks". Unlike the Greek Propagandists Internet websites, we are not afraid to show the reader the opinion on the opposite site. Below are the 5 of the Greeks internet sites which have the same agenda to propagate that the Macedonians had always been Greeks, that Macedonia has always been part of Greece, that there is no Macedonian nation, etc.

Pan-Macedonian Network http://www.macedonia.com

Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic)http://www.abest.com/~angelos/macfaq.html

A Very Brief History of Macedonia http://www.abest.com/~angelos/history.html

The Truth About Macedonia http://truth.macedonia.gr/

Macedonian Heritage http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/

We have examined the allegations of the modern Greek websites, picked up the so-called site as it was in 1999 "The Truth About Macedonia http://truth.macedonia.gr/", and easily exposed its distortions to light. Our analysis and findings are presented below.



INTRODUCTION

The Greek propagandist website http://truth.macedonia.gr/ is stating that the Macedonians were "Greek":

1."The Macedonian sun symbol is Greek"

2."Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language"

3."Macedonians had Greek names"

4."The regions of ancient Macedonia had Greek names"

5."Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Greeks"

6."Macedonians took part in the Olympic games"

7."Macedonians celebrated the same festivals as the rest of the Greeks."

8."Macedonians worshiped the same Gods as the rest of the Greeks"

9."Macedonian architecture was similar to the Greek architecture"

10."The famous ancient Greek play writer Euripidis wrote and originally presented most of his plays in Pella, the capital of Macedonia. How was that possible if the audience spoke a different language?"

11."Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony, an institution which was open only to Greeks."

12."When Alexander arrived in Asia he visited the ancient Greek town of Troy (Troia), where he sacrificed to the Greek Gods to help him in his quest."

13."A part from the "Treaty of Alliance" between king Philip V of Macedonia and Hannibal."

14."Alexander's speech to his solders one year before his death"

15."The speech of Alexander I when he was admitted to the Olympic games"

16."What was the origin of ancient Macedonians?"

Additional alleged historical scholarship which according to http://truth.macedonia.gr/ states that the Macedonians were "Greek":

Modern Sources

1. John Pentland Mahaffy

2. Peter Green

3. Malcom Errington

4. Mortimer Chambers



Ancient Sources

1. Polybios

2. Herodotus

3. Thoukididis

4. Arrian

5. Plutarchos

6. Isokratis

7. Pausanias

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ancie ... sites.html

[Lit]

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropagandistWebsites.html

Jactitations of pseudo-Greeks VS factual evidences of Macedonians.

That FYROM blog is useless.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/78259

Here you go

As always it´s highly amusing to read another one of Risto Stefov´s articles.

Starting from the opening statement, one notes the factual distortion present. For an individual who allegedly doesn´t care about what Greeks may claim about themselves; he certainly seems to waste much time and energy intentionally distorting texts and manipulating history in his articles and books, and distributing his propaganda.

Right after his first bout of hypocrisy, Stefov continues by distorting his very own claims. While he intentionally misinforms us by claiming that he´s never supported some twisted direct descendance from the ancient ´Makednoi´ theory; he conveniently forgets about his article: "Evidence of the Existence of Macedonians Throughout the Ages" in which in his opening statement in the introduction is: "This document was prepared in response to Greek allegations that Macedonians do not exist and have ceased to exist since the so called "Slav invasions" of the fifth and sixth centuries AD.

The logical question of why would any individual who allegedly doesn´t, nor has ever supported the "continuity theory" ever waste time to gather and intentionally distort sources to prove that the modern day population of the FYROM has every right to title themselves and claim heredity from the Makednoi?

Stefov's opening statement which attempts to refute Greek allegations and the insinuation of providing proof that the Macedonians have existed, since Slavic invasions doesn´t do much for his case.

It is obvious that he is at the very least intentionally misinforming readers of his true objectives.

Stefov and his followers constantly insinuate that Greeks allegedly strive to present the FYROM population as Bulgarians (he should know the difference between Bulgars and Bulgarians) and Slavs.

While this is partially true, what Stefov intentionally neglects to mention is that Greeks are simply reproducing what his ancestors themselves had stated.

We could take for example the organization called BMARC (Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Committee) all members of which, today, are considered as fine FYROM patriots. It is this very organization, (their very own national heroes) which totally legitimize our reference to the true ethnicity which they detest.

In its 1896 statute BMARC states:

Art. 1. The goal of BMARC is to secure full political autonomy for the Macedonia and Adrianople regions.

Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas - printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.

So the question asked must be, which is the population FYROM national heroes aimed to raise the awareness in and title Bulgarian; if not the forefathers of the population that today attempt to usurp a history and heritage which they have no connection to?

Stefov also accuses Greeks of titling the population of FYROM as Slavonic.

But what defines a Slav?

Slavs are an ethnic group connected by language, customs, traditions, beliefs.

We know beyond doubt that the population of FYROM does speak a Slavic language. We also know from their own authors like Tanas Vrazhinovski and Vladimir Karadzoski that FYROM folklore is predominantly Slavonic.

Both authors give numerous examples of worship of Slavonic deities and place names directly related to these deity´s names. Customs as any Bulgarian or Serb may confirm are also highly similar, if not identical.

So identical that we may safely conclude that the population of FYROM is indeed Slavonic and the attempt to present the use of the ethnonym 'Slav' as some form of insult, simply indicates the extent of propaganda aimed at (not to an international audience), but as its main target group has the FYROM youth. In some futile attempt to teach the FYROM population to hate their true origins and believe that their only true destiny is indissolubly connected upon usurping a history and culture which is totally alien to them is unacceptable.

Yet another fallacy promoted by Stefov for his audience is the case in which Philip of Macedon didn´t unite as so many true historians have accepted (see Thomas R. Martin, Lewis Vance Cummings, Richard Gabriel, Alan Fildes, Joann Fletcher, Robin Lane Fox…etc) but conquered. If that isn´t enough, he also resorts to fallaciously extending Philip´s empire further North to incorporate the lands of FYROM and by doing so legitimize his claims.

While it is true that these lands have seen various conquerors and settlers, what Stefov neglects to mention, is that while the above may have partially influenced the locals with their own culture, they never did manage to alienate them from their own. Something we clearly see in the alleged descendants of the Makednoi. Stefov and his believers have totally failed to provide a single logical explanation as to how any since trace of cultural connection to those they claim descendance from is non-existent.

During the last years the main FYROM offensive in the name debate is centralized on the following logic: "since we can´t prove a connection to the ancients, we´ll centralize on disproving yours", which is exactly what we see Stefov doing today.

Unfortunately his attempts are caught either constantly celebrating ignorance or due to malicious intent, falsifying facts. Stefov claims that the name/term Greeks was ignored until after the Roman conquests which is when it was allegedly coined. Its puzzling how an alleged authority in history, who has published so many books about ancient history, could possibly ignore the reference of the eponym 'Graikos'found in Hesiod´s Catalogue of Women or the village 'Graia' noted in Homer´s Catalogue of ships or even the later reference to the Graeci in Aristotle´s Meteorological. This is yet another well known quasi-historical attempts to approach the issue which Stefov is renowned for. Had he tried to tackle the issue on its factual basis, he wouldn´t centralize on the Latinization which has been passed down to the majority of language but the term which classicists acknowledge as the proper denomination and that is that of Hellenes (even though they have been used interchangeably). But even uttering the term 'Hellenes' is simply unthinkable for Stefov; for he would then have to deal with Hesiod´s reference to a 'race of the Hellenes' (works and days), a race of Hellenes which would disprove the very basis of his theory of various city-states alien to each other, not forming a single body of people.



While it is conveniently true that Greece wasn´t used by Ancient Greek geographers to describe the region in question, we know of several of them that use the term 'Hellas' (Agatharchides, Pausanias and Strabo being some of the more well known examples). If we were to look towards Roman writers with Pliny the Elder´s Natural History being one of the finest examples, we´d find that throughout his entire work and especially books 3-5 which are geography related, the term 'Greece' is constantly used to define the region.

One really has to wonder why Stefov tries to alienate an entire people from their heritage with such void argumentation. So the term 'Rhomios'was used by the Greek population to define themselves, what does this actually prove?

While the term Rhomios may indeed be partly alien to their ancestors, one can´t neglect to note that it derives from the 'Constitution Antoniniana of Caracalla' which allowed all freemen of the Roman provinces to obtain Roman citizenship and that it is directly related to the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) which they were subjects. A term forged to represent their citizenship but also their Greek ancestry (see Andreas Osiander´s Before the State), hence why it (and not 'Rhomaios') was also used to strictly designate the subjects of Greek ancestry and them alone. It is also interesting to note the perception of some of the empire´s neighbors. Armenians, Russians, Georgians, Jews and even Ottomans titled the subjects 'Graikoi', Yunan, Yavani , or the authors Theodorus Studitus, Anna Komnene, George Gemistos Plethon, Michael Psellus and Theophanes Confessor all used the ethnonym Hellenes; terms directly linked to their ancestral roots which they recognized then, but today this author (Stefov) with some highly questionable arguments tries to refute the facts.

Stefov continues to unsuccessfully tackle the demographics of Greece. If under his logic the Slavic presence in the Balkans gives the Slavic population of FYROM some right to usurp a history; heritage and claim descendance from the ancient Makednoi (even through their very customs, traditions and folklore) prove them totally alien to it. Then how can someone even try and attempt to alienate the Vlachs from the Ancient Greeks?

While theories on their origin vary and one could argue their autochthonous origin, doesn´t their presence in the region which is dated prior to the time when the Slavs were nothing but mere invaders(Procopius) give them the right to claim ancestry?

Stefov makes reference to the total population of Greece upon its liberation while exaggerating and distorting possible population statistics. There is no accurate account of the possible ethnic makeup of the population, therefore any argument either for or against homogeneity would be ridiculous. One would notice that while Stefov doesn't make any reference of Greeks as being a part of the population, he adds Turks; which as it is well documented, were non-existent since in their vast majority had fled upon the rebellion and Slavs. Then again such claims by Stefov who has previously promoted the totally outdated and disregarded 'Fallmerayer theory´, anything seems possible.

Finally, there needs to be a mention of the Albanians. Since the only census which provides us with data is that of 1928 we must take that into consideration. In a 1928 census we find that the total amount of self-identified Albanian-speakers (and not ethnic Albanian origin) is approx. 19,000. A population of 19,000 in 1928 when Greece had liberated its lands and had a total population of some 6.2 million. Stefov claims that the Albanians were obviously the majority in the region in the early 1800´s; hence his reference to them and no reference to the Greeks. One must ask of what happened to the Albanians?

Well, we could take into account the statements of the Albano phone population itself, who in 1836 Christophoros Perraivos recorded their self-identification as purely Greek and were recognized as such by Alexandros Ypsilantes; who in his letter makes reference to their ancestors that fought in the battle of Marathon.

Finally, it must be noted that people like Risto Stefov, while providing an entertaining read, continue to distort Greek history (in a way similarly described above) and must not be taken seriously.

[Nikitas]

Insan,

Do you have any texts from this ancient Macedonina language so we can see what it looked like? Modern macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect with less differences from Bulgarian than Greek Cypriot has from Greek. Are you suggesting that ancient Macedonians spoke slavic?

If Philip was such a heavy duty Macedonian dude why did he have a name made up of two Greek words? Philos and Hippos, Philippos, the lover of horses, and why did he give his son a name also made up two Greek words? Why did all Macedonian generals have Greek names? And why did they never leave even ONE stamp on a coin in any other language than Greek? Surely they wanted the population to have an easy time at least with the coins used in every day exchanges?

Why did Alexander address his subjects urging them to adopt the Greek way of life? Why was Alexander obsessed (to psychotic extremes) with avenging the wrongs of the Persians against the Greeks? Persia did not touch Macedonian soil.

The so called conquest of Greece by Alexander is a nonsense. He called on Greek city states to join in a unified campaign. The Spartans did not join and they were not punished or attacked in any way.

Except for FYROM sources, do you have any other reliable source for your spoutings?

[Lit]

Insan,

Do you have any texts from this ancient Macedonina language so we can see what it looked like? Modern macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect with less differences from Bulgarian than Greek Cypriot has from Greek. Are you suggesting that ancient Macedonians spoke slavic?

His FYROM friends believe their ancient slavic language was written on the Rosetta stone. Insan actually believes the same thing.

The Rosetta Stone Hoax: Pseudomacedonism's Sharpest Tool

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/85942

The official website of the FYROM church:

http://www.mpc.org.mk/English/default.asp

Now click on the Rosetta Stone link on the right sidebar.

They clearly believe that the Rosetta stone contain their ancient slavic language.

[insan]

Insan,

Do you have any texts from this ancient Macedonina language so we can see what it looked like? Modern macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect with less differences from Bulgarian than Greek Cypriot has from Greek. Are you suggesting that ancient Macedonians spoke slavic?

If Philip was such a heavy duty Macedonian dude why did he have a name made up of two Greek words? Philos and Hippos, Philippos, the lover of horses, and why did he give his son a name also made up two Greek words? Why did all Macedonian generals have Greek names? And why did they never leave even ONE stamp on a coin in any other language than Greek? Surely they wanted the population to have an easy time at least with the coins used in every day exchanges?

Why did Alexander address his subjects urging them to adopt the Greek way of life? Why was Alexander obsessed (to psychotic extremes) with avenging the wrongs of the Persians against the Greeks? Persia did not touch Macedonian soil.

The so called conquest of Greece by Alexander is a nonsense. He called on Greek city states to join in a unified campaign. The Spartans did not join and they were not punished or attacked in any way.

Except for FYROM sources, do you have any other reliable source for your spoutings?

3) "Macedonians had Greek names"

GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians had Greek names All the ancient Macedonian names mentioned in history or found on tombs are Greek. All the kings of Ancient Macedonia had Greek names. Alexander's name is Greek. Philip's name is also Greek".

MACEDONIAN REPLY: The Macedonians did not have Greek names. It is acutely judging by the distinctiveness of the surviving Macedonian names and glosses, that many scholars proved that the Macedonians were not Greek. Today, people of different ethnic backgrounds carry same names like Peter, David, Daniel, etc. These names are universal just like the names of Alexander and Philip were, and therefore, these names are not a proof that the Macedonians were Greek, since these names are found in other non-Greek nations.
GREEK CLAIM: "Some more ancient Macedonian names can be found Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira, Hermias - Philosopher, Anaksarxos - Philosopher, Marsias - Writer, Zoilos - Writer, Leocharis - Sculptor, Lysippos - Sculptor, Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt, Calisthenis - Historian, Aristoboulos - Historian, Aristokritos - Actor, Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's, Nearchos - Navy commander, Callisthenis, Eumenis, Leonatos, Memmon"

MACEDONIAN REPLY: Here we find a clear distortion of history by the modern Greek propaganda. All these names that the Greek propaganda here would like to portray as "Macedonian names" are in fact names of the ethnic Greeks (not of Macedonians), which served in the train of Alexander the Great. Memnon was a Greek who even fought against Alexander, yet the Greek propaganda calls his name Macedonian? This is indeed absurd. Interesting (inadvertent) reversals in Hammond narrative:

"Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly. It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so." "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions (e.g. Nearchus a Cretan, Eumenes a citizen of Cardia, and Sitalces a member of the Odrysian royal family). Some of them, if they served in the King's Army, were given Macedonian citizenship, which apparently was in the gift of the king." N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141

Even Hammond states that the above names (that the Greek propaganda is presenting) were names of Greeks, who were foreigners in the Macedonian train. Therefore, the above statement coming from the Greek propaganda can not serve as a "proof" that the "Macedonians were Greek", since the above names were not Macedonian, but Greek.

Eugene Borza's "Makedonika" on the number of Greeks serving the Macedonian king together with the Macedonians: "Of the nearly 850 persons listed by Berve, 275 are either certainly or probably ethnic Greeks. Of this number, 126 persons are not associated with Alexander's train, and thus outside present concerns. Of the 149 which remain, 69-- nearly half-- are court figures not associated with administration. They include sophists, physicians, actors, athletes, musicians, jugglers, and other entertainers, and a variety of hangers-on. 89 names remain. Of these three are of uncertain ethnic origin. 24 Greeks serve the king in variety of administrative tasks: some are envoys, some are clerks, some financial officers, some act as king's agents in local places. They pop in and out of the historical record as Alexander sees the need to employ them. The remaining 53 Greeks serve specific military functions. Out of these 53 persons, 22 names are attached to a single unit (the allies from Orchomenos), who, by the way, are dismissed along with the other Greek allies in 330 B.C. (Only a few short years into the expedition). Fourteen other Greeks hold naval appointments, either as ship commanders in the Hydaspes fleet, or in conjunction with Nearchus' ocean voyage. Four Greeks are in charge of mercenary units, and 9 others have unspecified, low- level military assignments. Seven have duties that did not take them beyond Egypt. In summary, of the 149 known Greeks with official connections to the king, only 35 to 40 held positions of rank- some as officers, some as administrators, but only a handful in top positions." "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality."

[insan]

2) "Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language"

GREEK CLAIM: "Macedonians spoke a dialect of the Greek language All the monuments and inscriptions found in the Macedonia region are written in the Greek language. It is also crearly stated by the Latin historian Titus Livius: "Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language..." (T. Livius XXXI,29, 15) and the Greek historian Herodotos : "Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers..." (Herodotos, The histories 7.9.2)"
MACEDONIAN REPLY: The Macedonians did not speak a "dialect of Greek" but they had their own language. The above quote by Herodotus is misleading since Herodotus himself did not consider the Macedonians to be Greek.

"We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4)…" N.G.L. Hammond The Macedonian State p.141. Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here using his own words, he clearly excludes the Macedonians from the Greeks. "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" – Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96

Titus Livius (Livy) also didn’t consider the Macedonians to be Greek and the quote above is again misleading. Livy even wrote in details on the hatred that the Greeks had for the Macedonians, their name and race: "Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS." [Livy's book XXXI.44]

Now that we established that neither Herodotus nor Livy considered the Macedonians to be Greeks, we can reveal the facts that the Macedonians did not speak a "dialect of Greek", but they had their own distinctive language:

Alexander the Great speaks in front of the Macedonians of his army: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case," he said. "Please state whether you will use your native language before them."

Philotas: "Besides the Macedonians, there are many present [Greeks and Persians] who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the [Greek] language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you."

Then the king said: "Do you see how offensive Philotas find even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember he as contemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language". Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander" [p.138]

This is Alexander himself talking about "our way of life" and "our language" "Macedonians are going to judge your case", not about some "dialect of Greek". There is no need for any explanation.


http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ancie ... sites.html

[DT.]

Insan, I am sure in those days there were plenty of Persians and Goths called Phillipos

Please tell me what you just posted is a joke.