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Cyprus must be liberated

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:52 pm

Get Real! wrote:
CopperLine wrote:It is lucky that this is a joke thread in which Get Real, Simon et. al are just taking the piss out of themselves or else many contributors on this thread could be charged with conspiracy.

You think that I'm joking ? All of those of you posting from the UK or other EU countries might like to know that there are dozens of British citizens currently serving jail sentences under 'anti-terror' legislation for expressing far milder suggestions about the possible use of violence.

Be careful you don't get your knickers in a twist Copperline... you should spend some time reading what those laws say before assuming they apply to internal political issues of Cyprus.



Get Real,
A UK poster on this thread who advocated the organisation of armed activity against another state - whichever state that was, including Cyprus or Turkey - would immediately be subject to the provisions of the 'Terrorism Act 2000' as well as the 'Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001'. Moreover as part if these provisions - there's lots more as well - that person could be subject to arbitrary detention and detention without trial (because the UK suspended Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights - the only EU country to do so).

And given the enforceability of domestic law in other EU courts (pace Orams :wink: ) they could get you too if you're in Cyprus.

As they say, go teach your granny to suck eggs.
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Postby YFred » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:56 pm

CopperLine wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
CopperLine wrote:It is lucky that this is a joke thread in which Get Real, Simon et. al are just taking the piss out of themselves or else many contributors on this thread could be charged with conspiracy.

You think that I'm joking ? All of those of you posting from the UK or other EU countries might like to know that there are dozens of British citizens currently serving jail sentences under 'anti-terror' legislation for expressing far milder suggestions about the possible use of violence.

Be careful you don't get your knickers in a twist Copperline... you should spend some time reading what those laws say before assuming they apply to internal political issues of Cyprus.



Get Real,
A UK poster on this thread who advocated the organisation of armed activity against another state - whichever state that was, including Cyprus or Turkey - would immediately be subject to the provisions of the 'Terrorism Act 2000' as well as the 'Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001'. Moreover as part if these provisions - there's lots more as well - that person could be subject to arbitrary detention and detention without trial (because the UK suspended Article 5 of the European Convention on Human Rights - the only EU country to do so).

And given the enforceability of domestic law in other EU courts (pace Orams :wink: ) they could get you too if you're in Cyprus.

As they say, go teach your granny to suck eggs.

I think you will find Belmarsh Prison very suitable. I'll come and visit you GR, you have nothing to worry about.
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Postby Bananiot » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:11 pm

You are not that lucky YFred. The moron meant just me. I feel like dead meat already but i cannot prosecute him because he directed his comments at "all those concerned". May be he will get braver later on and perhaps post a photo of him in his next post. After all he is a brave man.
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Postby YFred » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:18 pm

Bananiot wrote:You are not that lucky YFred. The moron meant just me. I feel like dead meat already but i cannot prosecute him because he directed his comments at "all those concerned". May be he will get braver later on and perhaps post a photo of him in his next post. After all he is a brave man.

I think he needs to understand what brave means first. :wink:
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:20 pm

Get Real just one example ... of how easy it is to get people

Abusing anti-terror laws

Hicham Yezza is yet another innocent victim of the war on terror. No wonder so many young Muslims are angry and radicalised

* Peter Tatchell
*
o Peter Tatchell
o guardian.co.uk, Monday 23 February 2009 21.00 GMT

After living an exemplary life in the UK for 14 years, Nottingham University staff member Hicham Yezza was arrested on unfounded terrorism charges and now faces the prospect of being forcibly removed to his homeland of Algeria – terminating his successful, commendable life in the UK and tearing him from his dearest friends and loved ones.

Yezza is another innocent victim of the so-called "war on terror". Critics fear that having failed to nail him as a terrorist, the Home Office now wants to get Yezza out of the country using immigration law, to shut down the adverse publicity about his mistreatment and thwart a possible future inquiry into official misconduct.

Much to the government's embarrassment, his arrest and that of his co-accused, Rizwaan Sabir, received widespread media coverage, including on BBC television news and on Channel Four News. There have also been major reports in the Independent and the International Herald Tribune.

What has happened to Yezza is just the latest of many perversions of justice. In the name of fighting terrorism, the government is playing fast and loose with civil liberties. Innocent people, like Yezza, are being arrested on the flimsiest circumstantial evidence. This risks bringing the legal system into disrepute and damaging public confidence in British justice.

If an innocent man like Yezza can be arrested, how many others are being detained on baseless charges of terrorism? Yezza was lucky. He was eventually released without prosecution. Are others so fortunate?

We know that the IRA bombing campaign in the 1970s and 80s resulted in terrible miscarriages of justice, such as the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four. It is therefore very likely that the present "war on terror" also has its innocent victims. Already, hundreds of mere suspects have been detained for days without charge. A panicked parliament has successively extended the period of pre-charge detention. People who have committed no crime can, nowadays, be detained for up to 28 days without charge – the equivalent of a two-month prison sentence with parole.

These abuses are alienating the already victimised Muslim community and, in effect, acting as "recruiting sergeants" for Islamist radicalisation. They are totally counterproductive.

Yezza's ordeal is not exceptional. Since 2000, more than 1,200 people have been arrested on suspicion of terrorist involvement. Of those arrested, less than 5% have been found guilty. In the same period, nearly 180,000 individuals were stopped and questioned by the police under the Terrorism Act 2000. I am one of them. Of those stopped, only 255 were subsequently detained for terrorist-related offences. The use of this law is clearly far too random and pretty useless when it comes to apprehending actual terror plotters. It is also alienating a lot of innocent people, and their friends and family.

Thirty-one year-old Yezza has nothing in common with Islamist terrorists. His politics are democratic and progressive. He was, at the time of his arrest, the principal school administrator of the school of modern languages at Nottingham University and was highly respected by university staff and students.

His Kafkaesque nightmare began on 14 May 2008, when he was arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 on suspicion of engaging in the commission, instigation and preparation of acts of terrorism.

Also arrested with him was his friend and university colleague, Rizwaan Sabir, a 22-year-old postgraduate student researching terrorism in the university's politics and international relations department.

The reason for their arrests – which was only revealed two days after they were detained – was that Yezza had on his office computer an open source, declassified, edited version of The Al-Qaida Training Manual. This is publicly available and accessible on the US department of justice website, from which Sabir had downloaded a copy for his research on terrorism. Sabir emailed the downloaded document to Yezza, who was helping him draft his PhD proposal.

The same training manual is, incidentally, advertised and available to buy in book form on Amazon.com – now at the discounted sale price of only $11.96.

Neither man made any attempt to hide or disguise the training manual on their computers, as would have been expected if they were engaged in a terrorist plot. The manual was clearly identified and accessible by anyone who looked at their documents folder.

This openness enabled a university staff member to notice the al-Qaida manual on Yezza's computer. The university authorities, without consulting Yezza to get his explanation, tipped off the police. Within three hours of the training manual being sighted, the university office was swamped with police officers who were convinced they had caught the ringleaders of a secret terrorist cell.

"Someone could be forgiven, in this current climate, for panicking at [seeing] this type of document," Yezza declared last May. "But I would have appreciated had I been given five minutes simply to [explain and] answer the questions relevant to the document."

At the time of their arrest, neither Yezza nor Sabir were advised of why they were being held. When they asked about what had prompted their arrest, the police refused to tell them. It was summary injustice.

Following their arrest, they were detained without charge for six days – the equivalent of a two-week prison sentence with parole. Even though Sabir's tutors, Bettina Renz and Rod Thornton, explained to the police two days after his arrest that the al-Qaida document was relevant to his academic research, he and Yezza were held in custody for a further four days.

Their homes were searched, their property seized and their friends and family interrogated at length. During their detention, they had barely any contact with the outside world.

Yezza endured nearly 20 hours of interrogation in police custody, which included in-depth questioning about intimate details of his personal life and relationships. His friends were also questioned about everything from his politics to whether he had ever worn a beard. One of the police officers who went on campus to question Yezza's colleagues allegedly admitted: "This would never have happened had these two chaps been blond and Swedish."

Eventually, six days later, on 20 May, both Sabir and Yezza were released without charge, following a storm of publicity and protest over the deprivation of their liberty without just cause.

University staff and students were particularly incensed by the police infringement of academic freedom – the right to examine lawful, publicly available documents for research purposes. There was also anger over the failure of the senior university authorities to defend Sabir and Yezza and to protect the right to intellectual inquiry.

With their release from police custody, Sabir's ordeal was over, but for Yezza it was just beginning. Although he was not charged under the Terrorism Act, Yezza was immediately re-arrested, this time on charges under immigration law. His supporters have speculated that the Home Office might want him out the country to squash the furore concerning his unjustified arrest on terrorism charges and to pre-empt any embarrassing inquiry into the behaviour of the police.

A few days ago, Yezza was found guilty of deliberately giving false information at an immigration interview in 2007, when he applied for permanent residence in the UK. He is adamant that he innocently and inadvertently – not intentionally – gave a statement that contained errors. Moreover, this misinformation gave him no material gain or benefit. He had no reason to deliberately make an inaccurate statement, as he already fulfilled all the requirements needed to qualify for permanent residence in the UK. He may now face a jail sentence, as well as deportation.

"It is hurtful to see myself being treated this way in a country I love, would protect and where I've done everything I can to engage with and be a good citizen," said Yezza last year. "They tried to deport me after my arrest last May, but a campaign of support led by my MP, Alan Simpson and hundreds of friends, colleagues and supporters stopped it. Having waited a few months for the media coverage to cool down, it seems like the Home Office is trying to get rid of me again," he said.

During his 14 years in the UK, Yezza has developed close friends and deep roots in Nottingham; having served as a member of the University of Nottingham Senate for two terms (2004-05). He was also co-founder and president of the Arabic Society, editor of the influential Voice magazine for international students, and is the current editor of the political and cultural journal Ceasefire.

Yezza is not a fundamentalist or jihadi. In fact, he's the exact opposite – a passionate defender of civil liberties, democracy and human rights. During his 14 years in the UK, as a student, university employee, writer, artist and peace activist, he has been an asset to his community and to the country at large. What malice and madness motivates our government to treat a good person so badly?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ezza/print
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Postby bill cobbett » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:25 pm

YFred wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
Simon wrote:bill,

who will enforce these judgments even if we win? If Turkey does not listen to UN resolutions, it will not listen to EU judgments. Then what? Turkey is refused entry into the EU, and the rest I cover above.

I'm not saying that we should be fighting now, but I am looking into the future and asking, are we prepared?


Simon mate,

Leaving aside actual EU membership, which is looking less and less likely, it would be in Tr's interest if it had Favoured Nation status for its exports of goods and services to one of the world's largest markets. So Cy through its EU membership will still have some say in this and hence leverage.

No matter how much it would like think otherwise Tr can not ignore the benefits of some kind of association with the EU, short of membership.

Charlie, where have you been. Turkey already has the special membership. Erdogan has already said he is not interested in negotiating for something he has.
Wake up dear boy.


Re Fromata, have you got a link to confirm that Tr has got this Favoured Nation status. I've looked and all I can find is debate about it.

... oh, and the rest of you can cut out all this war-mongering, it's pollocks.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:29 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
YFred wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
Simon wrote:bill,

who will enforce these judgments even if we win? If Turkey does not listen to UN resolutions, it will not listen to EU judgments. Then what? Turkey is refused entry into the EU, and the rest I cover above.

I'm not saying that we should be fighting now, but I am looking into the future and asking, are we prepared?


Simon mate,

Leaving aside actual EU membership, which is looking less and less likely, it would be in Tr's interest if it had Favoured Nation status for its exports of goods and services to one of the world's largest markets. So Cy through its EU membership will still have some say in this and hence leverage.

No matter how much it would like think otherwise Tr can not ignore the benefits of some kind of association with the EU, short of membership.

Charlie, where have you been. Turkey already has the special membership. Erdogan has already said he is not interested in negotiating for something he has.
Wake up dear boy.


Re Fromata, have you got a link to confirm that Tr has got this Favoured Nation status. I've looked and all I can find is debate about it.

... oh, and the rest of you can cut out all this war-mongering, it's pollocks.


Turkey has a customs union with the EU which provides for free trade in most goods in both directions. I think this may be what is meant.
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:31 pm

Turkey by virtue of being a member of the World Trade Organisation already has MFN status in world trade. (To be honest the meaning of 'most favoured nation' in international trade refers less to a status than a policy of reciprocity).

With regards the EU, Turkey has been part of the EU Customs Union (see http://ec.europa.eu/trade/issues/bilate ... dex_en.htm ) since 1996. In many matters there's not a great deal of difference when it comes to trade between customs union status and full EU membership.
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Postby wyoming cowboy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:32 pm

YFred wrote:
Oracle wrote:
YFred wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
Simon wrote:bill,

who will enforce these judgments even if we win? If Turkey does not listen to UN resolutions, it will not listen to EU judgments. Then what? Turkey is refused entry into the EU, and the rest I cover above.

I'm not saying that we should be fighting now, but I am looking into the future and asking, are we prepared?


Simon mate,

Leaving aside actual EU membership, which is looking less and less likely, it would be in Tr's interest if it had Favoured Nation status for its exports of goods and services to one of the world's largest markets. So Cy through its EU membership will still have some say in this and hence leverage.

No matter how much it would like think otherwise Tr can not ignore the benefits of some kind of association with the EU, short of membership.

Charlie, where have you been. Turkey already has the special membership. Erdogan has already said he is not interested in negotiating for something he has.
Wake up dear boy.


You don't have it yet, and it's not guaranteed you will receive special membership. You are merely applying (substitute, begging).

You are fast asleep. What Erdogan is after is the joining fee which should be a few billion euros, they already have plenty of trade with the EU.
saudi arabia also has plenty of trade with the Eu but their survival doesnt rest on it becoming westernized
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Postby wyoming cowboy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:34 pm

YFred wrote:
Piratis wrote:It is obvious to anybody with more than a grain of brain that a true solution that will unify our island and give our land and rights to us can not be achieved with negotiations under the current balance of power.

At the same time Cyprus is too small to go on a direct one-on-one war with Turkey, and we definitely don't want to enter a war that 10s of thousands of people will die, hoping that doing so will somehow liberate Cyprus (i doubt it will).

Our strategy must be much more planned than that. Here is the policy I believe that Cyprus and Greece should be taking:

1) Everybody should understand the obvious, that with negotiations there will be no real solution. Therefore we shouldn't do anything during the negotiations that could help upgrade the other side, hoping that by being the "good boys" they will like us and accepted a fairer solution. They are only using the negotiations to upgrade themselves, and we should keep this in mind. Negotiations should continue and we should insist on democracy and human rights, pointing out to the world that a solution can not be achieved because the Turks reject these universally accepted principles.

2) Turkey is a torn country. Torn between Turks and Kurds, and also torn between Secularists and Islamists. Just like the used the TC minority in order to divide our island, we should use similar methods in order to divide them. For starters we should invest money in the education of the Kurdish children that live abroad (millions of them) and help them to create an even stronger national Kurdish identity. We will help the educated Kurds to teach the rest of their population about Kurdistan and about the right for freedom from the Turkish oppressors. Later on we should also help the Kurds to arm themselves and help them with information on where to strike in order to cause the biggest problems to Turkey.

Also the Turks themselves should be further divided by helping the Islamists to became more powerful and more radical.

3) We should keep Turkey in her accession process for some time because this can help us to create the divisions within Turkey I talked above, and then in the right time help the other EU states to terminate the EU accession of Turkey. The termination of the EU accession for Turkey will have extremely negative consequences to their economy.

4) In Cyprus we should do more against those who exploit the lands they stole for us. After we will win the Orams case, we should embark in a legal war against those who illegally purchased properties in occupied Cyprus. At the same time we should find ways to help reduce the funding the the pseudo state receives in other ways, such as opening casinos on our side, and making it more difficult for GCs to cross and spent money in the occupied areas.

5) We should create better relations with other countries, including the USA but also the neighbors of Turkey, such as Syria and Iran. When Turkey will turn more Islamic it will be closer to these other countries (and further from the West) and this is good for us, but keeping good relationships with those other Muslim countries can reduce the benefits that Turkey can receive from being more Islamic.

6) We should build a better army because what we have now is crap. As I said we can not win Turkey when one-on-one, but if we help create the right amount of conflict within Turkey, or even between Turkey and others, then we can easily outnumber the Turkish forces on the island and if they will be unable to reinforce themselves from Turkey then we can have a good chance in reclaiming our lands. This operation could even be part of a larger operation from the West to end the inter-communal conflict within Turkey by dividing Turkey into Turkey and Kurdistan.

What I say is probable, and many of these are even possible without us doing anything. But by having the right policy we can help to push things in a direction that we want, and we will be more prepared to take advantage of a different kind of balance of power in the region.

How long are you prepared to see if you are right? And the above can happen? 10 Million years
Dream on.
It is a well known historical fact that no armed insurrection against a greater power has ever failed in reaching its objectives, no matter if its 1 day or 600 years guerilla warfare always wins
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