Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

I did not say you did, I mere wantd your comment. In my opinion there is a queue of GC forumers who do not recognise that we did mistakes. Piratis, in his last post, claims that our mistakes were simply political (whatever this means). Thus, Erk´s father who was dragged out of hospital bed, shot and thrown into a well, was just a political (!) mistake, not a crime. Perhaps he means that crimes could be a result of wrong policies but really i cannot follow him on this one. Also, he indirectly accepts that Makarios made mistakes because he was politically uneducated but then, in the same breath, he says that after 1960 he made only one mistake, that of accepting federation. Piratis is one badly confused chap.

Enough on Piratis (bet you he will now resort to his infamous percentages - we killed one you killed tens) let us go back to our original argument. Utu is TC isn´t he? He is rather generous in apportioning blame on his own community and Turkey. We should now see what some GC´s say, besides Piratis. Have we committed any crimes? Which were they? Can we admit to some of them? Is it patriotic to deny them?

I don't think Utu is TC actully. You seem to be stuck on all this admittion of crimes. The GC side can admit, confess and repent for everything those gangs of fanatics committed in the 60's. A situation so dark and badly recorded that sometimes you feel that this period happened in another country and not our own. And yet, we admit to these crimes and take our fair share of what these individuals had done. Careful now, this is the important bit the fact that we admit that these crimes happened and share our shame with the world depsite the fact that they never happened in the name or desire of 95% of the population of the Cypriots.
Yet we grudgingly admit to these killings and murders een though we were never taught them. Personally I still find fault of the TC's with a well orchestrated withdrawal from govt that gave our fanatics the perfect signal to carry out their share of horrors. But I could never ever understand the maniacs that committed the crimes that they did against TC civilians. Our biggest mistake as a community was not ignoring both Makarios and Clerides whe they pardoned these bastards and hunt them down ourselves. We should have hung them in ELeftheria Sq for the whole world to see.


The same can be said by the TC's with the activities of the TMT. The ordinary TC never gave a carte blanche to these officers from Turkey who were kidnapping and slaugthering GC's either. This one however gets notched down as self defense. How the hell we've reached a stage where slaughtering and heinous crimes against humanity are excused as self defense is beyond me. (by both sides!!)

The 3rd one is the invasion. This is the Big one for me and the one that baffles me the most. Grown men, educated and with families have sat on their PC's and told the forum that the invasion was a peace intervention to save the GC's and the TC's. They told us how no GC civilians were killed during this even though most of us have family that died in 74. They told us they would never have fired had the GC's not fired back and kept a straight face while those of us who remembered the F5's dropping bombs on the villages read with disbelief. They told us that all our missing where killed by the coup when everyday more and more brave TC's are confessing what their entire village knows, that the well on the mountain contains something more than water. Excuses, more excuses and more excuses....and then I sit and wonder. WHat make s a grown man lie like this in someone else's face when that someone else has obviosuly been affected so much by this?

FOr the life of me the only reason I can find is that its the fear of having your words used against you on a later argument. So we sit here and sell our souls to our own propaganda machine for a lousy argument.

Sorry if I dragged on.

Very well said DT.

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

It was realised by 1963 that the current situation gave no real protection to the TCs. The whole thing revolved around gathering all the TCs in one place, so they can be protected. The size of territory is another matter. How can you say what territory was needed until we have an agreement on the new TRNC territory. If you are saying that the territory at the end of the first phase was sufficient, I have no idea. We don't even know what percentage of land is TC land. Please don't quote me that 12% figure, it's quite insulting.

[DT.]

It was realised by 1963 that the current situation gave no real protection to the TCs. The whole thing revolved around gathering all the TCs in one place, so they can be protected. The size of territory is another matter. How can you say what territory was needed until we have an agreement on the new TRNC territory. If you are saying that the territory at the end of the first phase was sufficient, I have no idea. We don't even know what percentage of land is TC land. Please don't quote me that 12% figure, it's quite insulting.

SO you admit you decided form 1963 that you would invade?

[YFred]

It was realised by 1963 that the current situation gave no real protection to the TCs. The whole thing revolved around gathering all the TCs in one place, so they can be protected. The size of territory is another matter. How can you say what territory was needed until we have an agreement on the new TRNC territory. If you are saying that the territory at the end of the first phase was sufficient, I have no idea. We don't even know what percentage of land is TC land. Please don't quote me that 12% figure, it's quite insulting.

SO you admit you decided form 1963 that you would invade?

DT, I was 5 years old in 1963, but I certainly admit that 1963 and 67 incidents showed TCs how vulnarable they were, the GC radio did not stop telling us how in 63 or 67 Turkey did not come to help us and never will be able to. Remember the song "Bekledim da gelmedin" on GC radio, I do.
TMT was throwing petrol on the fire but eoka was fanning the flames and possibly cooperating.

[DT.]

This was your original question

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

and this was my response to you

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

You now say that it was obvious from 63 that Turkey needed to do something. Why do you still pretend then with your above question that Turkey came to save you from the events of 74?

[YFred]

This was your original question

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

and this was my response to you

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

You now say that it was obvious from 63 that Turkey needed to do something. Why do you still pretend then with your above question that Turkey came to save you from the events of 74?

That did not answer what would happen if Turkey did not intervene. DT please put your hand on your heart and tell me once and for all that when Samson finished with the GC opposition, he would not turn his attention on the TCs.
Otherwise we are going to go round and round in circles.

[DT.]

This was your original question

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

and this was my response to you

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

You now say that it was obvious from 63 that Turkey needed to do something. Why do you still pretend then with your above question that Turkey came to save you from the events of 74?

That did not answer what would happen if Turkey did not intervene. DT please put your hand on your heart and tell me once and for all that when Samson finished with the GC opposition, he would not turn his attention on the TCs.
Otherwise we are going to go round and round in circles.

Sampson was not in power during the 2nd invasion!

[Piratis]

It was realised by 1963 that the current situation gave no real protection to the TCs. The whole thing revolved around gathering all the TCs in one place, so they can be protected. The size of territory is another matter. How can you say what territory was needed until we have an agreement on the new TRNC territory. If you are saying that the territory at the end of the first phase was sufficient, I have no idea. We don't even know what percentage of land is TC land. Please don't quote me that 12% figure, it's quite insulting.

SO you admit you decided form 1963 that you would invade?

The decision was from the 1950s, when the TCs attacked us and started the inter-communal conflict and demanded the annihilation of 100s of thousands of Cypriots from their homeland so they could create a separate state on land stolen from us.

[YFred]

This was your original question

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

and this was my response to you

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

You now say that it was obvious from 63 that Turkey needed to do something. Why do you still pretend then with your above question that Turkey came to save you from the events of 74?

That did not answer what would happen if Turkey did not intervene. DT please put your hand on your heart and tell me once and for all that when Samson finished with the GC opposition, he would not turn his attention on the TCs.
Otherwise we are going to go round and round in circles.

Sampson was not in power during the 2nd invasion!

Yep in that bloomin Circle.

[YFred]

It was realised by 1963 that the current situation gave no real protection to the TCs. The whole thing revolved around gathering all the TCs in one place, so they can be protected. The size of territory is another matter. How can you say what territory was needed until we have an agreement on the new TRNC territory. If you are saying that the territory at the end of the first phase was sufficient, I have no idea. We don't even know what percentage of land is TC land. Please don't quote me that 12% figure, it's quite insulting.

SO you admit you decided form 1963 that you would invade?

The decision was from the 1950s, when the TCs attacked us and started the inter-communal conflict and demanded the annihilation of 100s of thousands of Cypriots from their homeland so they could create a separate state on land stolen from us.

If you are right, Turkey would not have accepted the 1959 agreement. She would have wanted something closer to what we have now than what we got.

[insan]

This was your original question

Can somebody please tell me what would have happend to he TCs if Turkey did not intervine.

and this was my response to you

Supposing you don't believe that the TC's would not had been harmed during the coup which they weren't....what was the reason for the 2nd invasion after constituional order was re-established and Clerides was Acting President.?

You now say that it was obvious from 63 that Turkey needed to do something. Why do you still pretend then with your above question that Turkey came to save you from the events of 74?

That did not answer what would happen if Turkey did not intervene. DT please put your hand on your heart and tell me once and for all that when Samson finished with the GC opposition, he would not turn his attention on the TCs.
Otherwise we are going to go round and round in circles.

Sampson was not in power during the 2nd invasion!

EOKA-B and their secret backers were "in power" after Sampson resigned; from 1974 July till end of 1976. Resignation of Sampson didn't change the chaotic, cloudy, still dangerous and hostile environment of Cyprus.

DT, please keep in mind this: any group in your community, either backed by Athens or not; as long as they struggled/struggle for something detrimental for the interests of TC community such as Enosis or a so-called democracy named "majority rule"; any groups in TC community also had/have the right to struggle for Taksim or a consociational democracy.

While Enosists were backed by Greece; majority rule strugglers and then the Enosis-opposers were backed by some socialist countries. Under such circumstances, what's wrong with TCs backed by Turkey?

Currently, the circumstances r almost the same for TC community. Vast majority of GC community backed by Greece struggle for "majority rule" in Cyprus. On the other hand vast majority of TC community struggle for a consociational democracy backed by Turkey.

Our past experiences and EU accession of the so-called RoC strongly urge TC community to pursue Taksim policy on the other hand because we almost have no hope that one day vast majority of GC community would genuinely accept a united RoC based on consociational democracy.