Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The difference is that Greek Cypriot leadership might have made some political mistakes, while on the other hand the Turkish leadership has committed and continues to commit crimes and illegalities.

I hope you understand the difference between making a possibly wrong political choice, and committing a crime such as arming a minority to create civil war, or invading and occupying a sovereign country.

Sorry that after being kept as uneducated peasants by the Ottomans for 300 years, and then continued to be colonial subjects, Cyprus of half million population didn't have the great minds that could outsmart the British and the Turks combined, and free Cyprus against the will of those foreigners that had the power to keep Cyprus enslaved.

The only possible mistakes that Makarios did were before 1960, and even if he was acting in the perfect way I still doubt that the result would be any different, since what drive the policy of the British is their own interests, and not what Makarios said or didn't say.

Had the Cyprus issue been solved, there would never have been a coup, for the simple reason that there would be no army on Cyprus. And if the Junta dared a coup to prevent a solution that was an improvement on Zurich, the Cyprus crisis would have been handled completely differently by the international community, including the US.

This is the biggest nonsense Drousiotis ever wrote. The US (CIA) were the ones behind the Athens Junta and the coup and the aim was to remove the "red monk" of the "Cuba of the Mediterranean". The how improved or not improved the Zurich agreements were, was totally irrelevant to both the Junta and the CIA.

The international community issued UN resolutions and demanded the respect of the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus and the withdrawal of all foreign troops. What else would they do? Send their troops to fight the Turks?

After 1960 Makarios did what he had to do, and tried to make the agreements that were forced on the Cypriot people more democratic and more fair. There was no mistake from Makarios part during this period.

His only clear mistake came after the Turkish invasion, when he wrongly accepted federation as a solution.

[DT.]

DT, what do you find offensive in utu´s comment?

Turkey has more than its fair share of blame, but as long as the Greek Cypriots blame solely Turkey and the Greek military Junta, there is not going to be any real solution.

I think it is very fair and balanced. Can we agree on this?

I didn't even comment on utu's post. I'm all for recognising our mistakes. The only people in denial here are a few tc's and turks who claim turkey came here to "save" them.

I recognise Makarios's mistakes, Clerides's mistakes, Vasiiliou's mistakes, Kyprianou's mistakes and now I am starting to recognise Christofias's mistakes.

There is no point in your friend YFred recognising or admitting to the mistakes the turkish side committed (not that he ever would), because they were'nt mistakes they were crimes still being committed to this day Bananiot!

[Bananiot]

I did not say you did, I mere wantd your comment. In my opinion there is a queue of GC forumers who do not recognise that we did mistakes. Piratis, in his last post, claims that our mistakes were simply political (whatever this means). Thus, Erk´s father who was dragged out of hospital bed, shot and thrown into a well, was just a political (!) mistake, not a crime. Perhaps he means that crimes could be a result of wrong policies but really i cannot follow him on this one. Also, he indirectly accepts that Makarios made mistakes because he was politically uneducated but then, in the same breath, he says that after 1960 he made only one mistake, that of accepting federation. Piratis is one badly confused chap.

Enough on Piratis (bet you he will now resort to his infamous percentages - we killed one you killed tens) let us go back to our original argument. Utu is TC isn´t he? He is rather generous in apportioning blame on his own community and Turkey. We should now see what some GC´s say, besides Piratis. Have we committed any crimes? Which were they? Can we admit to some of them? Is it patriotic to deny them?

[YFred]

DT, what do you find offensive in utu´s comment?

Turkey has more than its fair share of blame, but as long as the Greek Cypriots blame solely Turkey and the Greek military Junta, there is not going to be any real solution.

I think it is very fair and balanced. Can we agree on this?

I didn't even comment on utu's post. I'm all for recognising our mistakes. The only people in denial here are a few tc's and turks who claim turkey came here to "save" them.

I recognise Makarios's mistakes, Clerides's mistakes, Vasiiliou's mistakes, Kyprianou's mistakes and now I am starting to recognise Christofias's mistakes.

There is no point in your friend YFred recognising or admitting to the mistakes the turkish side committed (not that he ever would), because they were'nt mistakes they were crimes still being committed to this day Bananiot!

DT,
I am perfectly aware the role played by UK Government, The Greek Government and Turkey, the help given -financially and militarily to TMT as well as the reason. I am also aware of the activities that led to the annexation of Syrian territory in Southern Turkey, I am also aware of Turkey's activities in Northern Iraq regarding the Turks that live there and Oil. But, I think the Turks in northern Iraq are wiser than we were.

I never claimed that Turkeys sole purpose in life was to protect Lurucina or the rest of the TCs. However, the fact that they were there in the nick of time is not in dispute. How close the GC army came to wiping out Lurucina is not in dispute.

My main gripe is the time and the manner in which My Government the RoC went about perpetuating this thing called Cyprus problem, While the strangling the TCs with love. I don't take kindly to that, I like my woman to kiss me while making love not strangling me.

Does that make you feel better?

[DT.]

DT, what do you find offensive in utu´s comment?

Turkey has more than its fair share of blame, but as long as the Greek Cypriots blame solely Turkey and the Greek military Junta, there is not going to be any real solution.

I think it is very fair and balanced. Can we agree on this?

I didn't even comment on utu's post. I'm all for recognising our mistakes. The only people in denial here are a few tc's and turks who claim turkey came here to "save" them.

I recognise Makarios's mistakes, Clerides's mistakes, Vasiiliou's mistakes, Kyprianou's mistakes and now I am starting to recognise Christofias's mistakes.

There is no point in your friend YFred recognising or admitting to the mistakes the turkish side committed (not that he ever would), because they were'nt mistakes they were crimes still being committed to this day Bananiot!

DT,
I am perfectly aware the role played by UK Government, The Greek Government and Turkey, the help given -financially and militarily to TMT as well as the reason. I am also aware of the activities that led to the annexation of Syrian territory in Southern Turkey, I am also aware of Turkey's activities in Northern Iraq regarding the Turks that live there and Oil. But, I think the Turks in northern Iraq are wiser than we were.

I never claimed that Turkeys sole purpose in life was to protect Lurucina or the rest of the TCs. However, the fact that they were there in the nick of time is not in dispute. How close the GC army came to wiping out Lurucina is not in dispute.

My main gripe is the time and the manner in which My Government the RoC went about perpetuating this thing called Cyprus problem, While the strangling the TCs with love. I don't take kindly to that, I like my woman to kiss me while making love not strangling me.

Does that make you feel better?

WIth respect YFred and I don't want to cause any offence with this, but after watching some of the other threads you've been on, I'd rather wait for Bananiot to get back to me on this one so that we can continue the discussion (if there is one left).

The problem is that I think you take a very simplified version of history and distort it into an emotional argument which is being repeated over and over again. It doesn't really leave any room for discussion or debate. Perhaps swapping insults is more your thing.

[Oracle]

I did not say you did, I mere wantd your comment. In my opinion there is a queue of GC forumers who do not recognise that we did mistakes. Piratis, in his last post, claims that our mistakes were simply political (whatever this means). Thus, Erk´s father who was dragged out of hospital bed, shot and thrown into a well, was just a political (!) mistake, not a crime. Perhaps he means that crimes could be a result of wrong policies but really i cannot follow him on this one. Also, he indirectly accepts that Makarios made mistakes because he was politically uneducated but then, in the same breath, he says that after 1960 he made only one mistake, that of accepting federation. Piratis is one badly confused chap.

Enough on Piratis (bet you he will now resort to his infamous percentages - we killed one you killed tens) let us go back to our original argument. Utu is TC isn´t he? He is rather generous in apportioning blame on his own community and Turkey. We should now see what some GC´s say, besides Piratis. Have we committed any crimes? Which were they? Can we admit to some of them? Is it patriotic to deny them?

What's more, they were only political mistakes in hindsight, because of the "benefit" of now seeing the outcome. There were alternatives to those choices, but who knows we wouldn't this day be regretting those too ...

So stop acting like you know better than Makarios, and all those others that made decisions before you, Bananiot .... just because you are still here, and they are NOT!

[DT.]

I did not say you did, I mere wantd your comment. In my opinion there is a queue of GC forumers who do not recognise that we did mistakes. Piratis, in his last post, claims that our mistakes were simply political (whatever this means). Thus, Erk´s father who was dragged out of hospital bed, shot and thrown into a well, was just a political (!) mistake, not a crime. Perhaps he means that crimes could be a result of wrong policies but really i cannot follow him on this one. Also, he indirectly accepts that Makarios made mistakes because he was politically uneducated but then, in the same breath, he says that after 1960 he made only one mistake, that of accepting federation. Piratis is one badly confused chap.

Enough on Piratis (bet you he will now resort to his infamous percentages - we killed one you killed tens) let us go back to our original argument. Utu is TC isn´t he? He is rather generous in apportioning blame on his own community and Turkey. We should now see what some GC´s say, besides Piratis. Have we committed any crimes? Which were they? Can we admit to some of them? Is it patriotic to deny them?

I don't think Utu is TC actully. You seem to be stuck on all this admittion of crimes. The GC side can admit, confess and repent for everything those gangs of fanatics committed in the 60's. A situation so dark and badly recorded that sometimes you feel that this period happened in another country and not our own. And yet, we admit to these crimes and take our fair share of what these individuals had done. Careful now, this is the important bit the fact that we admit that these crimes happened and share our shame with the world depsite the fact that they never happened in the name or desire of 95% of the population of the Cypriots.
Yet we grudgingly admit to these killings and murders een though we were never taught them. Personally I still find fault of the TC's with a well orchestrated withdrawal from govt that gave our fanatics the perfect signal to carry out their share of horrors. But I could never ever understand the maniacs that committed the crimes that they did against TC civilians. Our biggest mistake as a community was not ignoring both Makarios and Clerides whe they pardoned these bastards and hunt them down ourselves. We should have hung them in ELeftheria Sq for the whole world to see.


The same can be said by the TC's with the activities of the TMT. The ordinary TC never gave a carte blanche to these officers from Turkey who were kidnapping and slaugthering GC's either. This one however gets notched down as self defense. How the hell we've reached a stage where slaughtering and heinous crimes against humanity are excused as self defense is beyond me. (by both sides!!)

The 3rd one is the invasion. This is the Big one for me and the one that baffles me the most. Grown men, educated and with families have sat on their PC's and told the forum that the invasion was a peace intervention to save the GC's and the TC's. They told us how no GC civilians were killed during this even though most of us have family that died in 74. They told us they would never have fired had the GC's not fired back and kept a straight face while those of us who remembered the F5's dropping bombs on the villages read with disbelief. They told us that all our missing where killed by the coup when everyday more and more brave TC's are confessing what their entire village knows, that the well on the mountain contains something more than water. Excuses, more excuses and more excuses....and then I sit and wonder. WHat make s a grown man lie like this in someone else's face when that someone else has obviosuly been affected so much by this?

FOr the life of me the only reason I can find is that its the fear of having your words used against you on a later argument. So we sit here and sell our souls to our own propaganda machine for a lousy argument.

Sorry if I dragged on.

[insan]

DT, what do you find offensive in utu´s comment?

Turkey has more than its fair share of blame, but as long as the Greek Cypriots blame solely Turkey and the Greek military Junta, there is not going to be any real solution.

I think it is very fair and balanced. Can we agree on this?

I didn't even comment on utu's post. I'm all for recognising our mistakes. The only people in denial here are a few tc's and turks who claim turkey came here to "save" them.

I recognise Makarios's mistakes, Clerides's mistakes, Vasiiliou's mistakes, Kyprianou's mistakes and now I am starting to recognise Christofias's mistakes.

There is no point in your friend YFred recognising or admitting to the mistakes the turkish side committed (not that he ever would), because they were'nt mistakes they were crimes still being committed to this day Bananiot!

If not accepting minority status was/is a mistake, TCs and Turkey had/has a mistake. What other mistakes did Turkey and TCs? Don't tell what inevitable was a mistake.

[Piratis]

I did not say you did, I mere wantd your comment. In my opinion there is a queue of GC forumers who do not recognise that we did mistakes. Piratis, in his last post, claims that our mistakes were simply political (whatever this means). Thus, Erk´s father who was dragged out of hospital bed, shot and thrown into a well, was just a political (!) mistake, not a crime. Perhaps he means that crimes could be a result of wrong policies but really i cannot follow him on this one. Also, he indirectly accepts that Makarios made mistakes because he was politically uneducated but then, in the same breath, he says that after 1960 he made only one mistake, that of accepting federation. Piratis is one badly confused chap.

Enough on Piratis (bet you he will now resort to his infamous percentages - we killed one you killed tens) let us go back to our original argument. Utu is TC isn´t he? He is rather generous in apportioning blame on his own community and Turkey. We should now see what some GC´s say, besides Piratis. Have we committed any crimes? Which were they? Can we admit to some of them? Is it patriotic to deny them?

Bananiot, nobody said that people within our side didn't commit crimes, and the actions of EOKA B and some other extremists are denied by nobody. But here we are talking about the leaderships and their actions, not about the communities in general.

Makarios might have made some mistakes but he didn't do any crimes. Here is an example:

During the talks between the then Governor of Cyprus, Sir John Harding, and Archbishop Makarios (1955-1956), the British offered the Cypriots a regime of self-administration, leaving even the prospect of Enosis (union with Greece) open in the future. ... He rejected the British proposal and adopted the dogma of "all or nothing".

One could claim that the above was a possible political mistake (in hindsight, as Oracle said). But it is definitely not a crime.

Similarly you can claim if you want that rejecting the Annan plan was a mistake. I disagree with you, but you have the right of that opinion. But nobody can say that rejecting that plan was a crime, we had every right to reject it.

Compare this with the Turkish actions of invading Cyprus, ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands of people, bringing Turkish Settlers on our island, and then establishing some pseudo state on land stolen from us. Here we are not talking merely about mistakes. Here we are talking about crimes and illegalities, committed by the Turkish state.

[boomerang]

DT, what do you find offensive in utu´s comment?

Turkey has more than its fair share of blame, but as long as the Greek Cypriots blame solely Turkey and the Greek military Junta, there is not going to be any real solution.

I think it is very fair and balanced. Can we agree on this?

I didn't even comment on utu's post. I'm all for recognising our mistakes. The only people in denial here are a few tc's and turks who claim turkey came here to "save" them.

I recognise Makarios's mistakes, Clerides's mistakes, Vasiiliou's mistakes, Kyprianou's mistakes and now I am starting to recognise Christofias's mistakes.

There is no point in your friend YFred recognising or admitting to the mistakes the turkish side committed (not that he ever would), because they were'nt mistakes they were crimes still being committed to this day Bananiot!

If not accepting minority status was/is a mistake, TCs and Turkey had/has a mistake. What other mistakes did Turkey and TCs? Don't tell what inevitable was a mistake.

come on titty man...spill the beans...it was capitalism and globalism....


@DT

excellent post...