Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

For those with an interest below is a link to the ECJ diary page which lists forthcoming hearings and judgments.

The ref no. for the Apostolides v Orams case is C-420/07

As of the time of writing the matter isn't listed but the diary does roll forward every few days.

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/calendriers/index.htm

[Kikapu]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

[observer]

Kikapu wrote:

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

Combine the above with the thought that any future agreement about reunification having to be agreed by both communities, than I think that we can wave goodbye to any reunification. If the GC politicians have problems agreeing what they want, how can 200,000 GCs agree what they want, especially as much formerly owned GC property is now claimed by a number of heirs.

I say this as someone who has limited interest in the property issue as no GC can have a claim on mine.

[Tim Drayton]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I believe that the private property issue will increasingly become decoupled from the political settlement process and turn into the civil law matter that it essentially is. This will particularly be so if the current round of negotiations ends in failure; there is every sign that they are stalling.

[Jerry]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I believe that the private property issue will increasingly become decoupled from the political settlement process and turn into the civil law matter that it essentially is. This will particularly be so if the current round of negotiations ends in failure; there is every sign that they are stalling.

You are right of course. The "trnc" may attempt to frustrate civil actions, logically by denying GCs access to the north. Closure of the Green Line will a severe impact on the economy of TCs and shopping habits of the carpetbaggers who will feel even more isolated. The north will be drawn even closer to Turkey who may have to choose between annexation or EU membership. There are many possibilities but the status quo, for Turkey, is not an option

[CopperLine]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

[Sotos]

Yes the law was always there. It is a Cyprus law. It will now be confirmed that decisions of Republic of Cyprus courts can be enforced in all EU countries and that those that are in the occupied areas are not exempted from the laws of Cyprus and the rulings of the Cypriot courts. The occupied areas will become a jail for those that purchased our properties in an illegal way. They will not be able to cross in the the free areas and they will not be able to go to any other EU country. And if they have any property in other EU country it will be confiscated.

[CopperLine]

That Cyprus law could be enforced in other EU members states (following Cyprus' entry into the EU) was never in question. That is not what this part of the Oram's case is about. What it is about is the enforceability of judgements by one jurisdictional authority in the jurisidicational territory of another jurisdiction where the claimed breach of national law took place in a territory over which the original jursidictional authority's effective administration doesn't apply or has not been enforceable.

Sotos, this ECJ is not about Cyprus law (otherwise it would have been resolved in Cyprus). It is about international law in general and EU laws in particular therefore it is mistaken of you to claim that "the law was always there. It is a Cyprus law." It is no more a Cyprus law than it is a Turkish law or British law.

The conclusion that you draw "The occupied areas will become a jail for those that purchased our properties in an illegal way. They will not be able to cross in the the free areas and they will not be able to go to any other EU country" is a million miles from the truth. Just consider this for one minute : this is like saying that any EU citizen who has at sometime been in breach of criminal or civil law is prohibited from moving across and between EU states. Clearly not the case. It is for the enforcement authorities in any state to enforce remedies and punishments in law - and there are vast swathes of public life in which states do not enforce laws.

And finally you say "And if they have any property in other EU country it will be confiscated." No they won't. It will still require GC claimants to go through the legal process of making claims, enforcing favourable judgements from Cyprus courts, if that doesn't work to enforce those judgements in other EU states. You need to wake up to reality if you think that EU states will automatically confiscate the property of illegally-held property in northern Cyprus. That scenario will not materialise as a result of the Orams case whichever way it goes.

[Sotos]

We will see. After we will win the Orams case then expect the Cypriot courts to start convicting one thief after another. They will order them to demolish the houses they build illegally and pay the rent. If they don't then warrants for their arrest will be made enforceable in all EU. If those people want to continue the illegalities then they should better sell everything they have in any EU country and lock themselves in the pseudo state.

[bill cobbett]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

The Orams/Apostolides matter has been referred to the ECJ for a definitive judgement on the matter of enforcing a member state's court judgement in areas where the member state has effectively no practical recourse and some other related matters to do with service of documents and whether the Orams had due notice and due representation.

In interpreting existing legislation by making the judgement and by way of its definitive opinion the ECJ will be making a new EU-wide law by way of new "case law" in this area. A new case law which national courts will be able to refer to in future.

Not unusual for supreme courts to make new case laws, to fill in gaps in existing laws and give definitive interpretations.