Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

@CopperLine,

If your last post to Viewpoint does not make him think the serious ramifications of the ECJ ruling in the wings that will have in the north, then nothing will make VP see the light. Talat is scared worried about it, but not our great cavalier friend, VP.! Well done all the same with your explanations to him and us.

@Jerry,

You are assuming of course, that in the last 5 years since the crossings have been open, that the RoC government has not been "secretly" identifying those who live in GC property in the north, or who has bought and sold GC properties also. In almost all countries, property ownership is a matter of public record that one can get from their city hall, but lets just assume it is not the same in the north, then don't you think such information has been bought from those working on the inside of the "trnc". How about all those TC's who have gotten RoC ID's and Passports. Surely they wrote their names (names before 74 and after) and addresses in the north on their application forms, as well as their photographs. These names can easily be cross checked with names in other countries, mainly in the UK. Debt collectors specialise in finding people "on the run".

All the plaintiff (GC property owner) has to do (not personally), is to serve these individuals "on the run" with a summons of a lawsuit anywhere in the world for them to appear in a Nicosia Court, and if they do not show up, which majority will not, then a judgement will be given against them for the plaintiff to go after them. All the plaintiff has to do with the help of specialized debt collectors, is to identify where the assets are in any EU country, and maybe even in some other non EU countries depending what agreement the RoC has with them, is to put a lien to the amount of the judgement on the house, bank account, business, expensive cars and so on. The person "on the run" does not even need to be informed by the plaintiff that he has put these liens on their property. They will either be informed by the lenders or that they will find out when the time comes to sell or refinance their property or business. The person on the run may decide to leave the liens as is to wait out the plaintiff, but here is an interesting dilemma for the person "on the run", and that is, which is the case in the states by the way, that each year the lien is not collected, a 10% penalty is added onto the original judgement. Basically, within 8 years, the original judgements value will double. The RoC can make this penalty percentage to anything they want. It could be 25%, in which case, the original judgement will double every 4 years.! This kinds of actions will destroy some of the people "on the run" financially, and VP still wonders how life will change in the north.!

You may be right about identifying TCs but finding the carpetbaggers and British TCs (who don't hold ROC passports) may not be so easy. I think, however, that the fear factor of litigation and possible closing of the "border" will have a profound affect on the property market in the north's economy and its inhabitants. I suppose it's possible that a TC working in the "land registry" in the north could be on "a nice little earner" one day soon.

I'm not sure if liens are applicable to land ownership, I believe a device called a "charge" is. I expect Copperline or someone with legal knowledge can explain.

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

Will that mean TCs living in the UK who have assets wil have them siezed? lets see how this will happen, should be very interetsing. Maybe a few arrests will cause goodwill between the 2 comunities.

There won't be any arrests, since this will only be a civil cases. But if the defendants start to perjure themselves by lying to the authorities in an attempt to hide their assets, then the defendants themselves will put themselves in a criminal case with the country they live in. That will be a whole different situation all together. It will be like going from bad to worse for some, but it will be their own doing and will have nothing to do with the original judgement and liens against their properties.

[Jerry]

Kikapu wrote:-

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

No Kikapu, there are about half a dozen ways of enforcing judgements, charging orders, garnishees, attachment of earnings, bailiffs and receivership etc. A lien is where the plaintiff already has the defendant's property in his possession and uses it to recover the debt.

As to who is in temporary possession of GC property in the north I would imagine the largest group is made up of Turkish nationals, it won't be easy pursuing them.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu wrote:-

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

No Kikapu, there are about half a dozen ways of enforcing judgements, charging orders, garnishees, attachment of earnings, bailiffs and receivership etc. A lien is where the plaintiff already has the defendant's property in his possession and uses it to recover the debt.
As to who is in temporary possession of GC property in the north I would imagine the largest group is made up of Turkish nationals, it won't be easy pursuing them.

You are correct in trying to collect cash money from the defendant with the above methods, but on fixed properties and cars, boats or planes, the defendant will not be forced to sell anything, which means that you will need to put a lien on those properties. Anything that has cash involved, including bank accounts, they can be gotten without a lien, as you correctly pointed out. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.!

[Mr. T]

Kikapu wrote:-

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

No Kikapu, there are about half a dozen ways of enforcing judgements, charging orders, garnishees, attachment of earnings, bailiffs and receivership etc. A lien is where the plaintiff already has the defendant's property in his possession and uses it to recover the debt.
As to who is in temporary possession of GC property in the north I would imagine the largest group is made up of Turkish nationals, it won't be easy pursuing them.

You are correct in trying to collect cash money from the defendant with the above methods, but on fixed properties and cars, boats or planes, the defendant will not be forced to sell anything, which means that you will need to put a lien on those properties. Anything that has cash involved, including bank accounts, they can be gotten without a lien, as you correctly pointed out. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.!

Jerry beat me to it.

A definition of a lien is

'A possessory security interest in property. For a valid lien to arise, certain preconditions must have taken place; for instance, the party asserting the lien must have lawfully taken possession of the property.

A holder of property is not entitled to sell or otherwise dispose of the property in order to satisfy the debt. They are simply entitled to maintain possession until such time as the debt is discharged.'

An example of when a lien is established is, a garage retaining possession of a customer's car, which has been repaired, until such time as the debt for the work done has been paid.
A bank account, for instance, could never be subject to a lien. When I was involved in legal work it was impossible to get a charge on items such as vehicles without the owners signature in agreement.

More importantly it is all hypothetical. When you use the word 'will' it should be 'would'.

As for debt collectors finding people and tracing assets lol, particularly worldwide. I wouldn't want to be the one paying the bill and particularly galling if it was discovered that there were no assets.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu wrote:-

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

No Kikapu, there are about half a dozen ways of enforcing judgements, charging orders, garnishees, attachment of earnings, bailiffs and receivership etc. A lien is where the plaintiff already has the defendant's property in his possession and uses it to recover the debt.
As to who is in temporary possession of GC property in the north I would imagine the largest group is made up of Turkish nationals, it won't be easy pursuing them.

You are correct in trying to collect cash money from the defendant with the above methods, but on fixed properties and cars, boats or planes, the defendant will not be forced to sell anything, which means that you will need to put a lien on those properties. Anything that has cash involved, including bank accounts, they can be gotten without a lien, as you correctly pointed out. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.!

Jerry beat me to it.

A definition of a lien is

'A possessory security interest in property. For a valid lien to arise, certain preconditions must have taken place; for instance, the party asserting the lien must have lawfully taken possession of the property.

A holder of property is not entitled to sell or otherwise dispose of the property in order to satisfy the debt. They are simply entitled to maintain possession until such time as the debt is discharged.'

An example of when a lien is established is, a garage retaining possession of a customer's car, which has been repaired, until such time as the debt for the work done has been paid.
A bank account, for instance, could never be subject to a lien. When I was involved in legal work it was impossible to get a charge on items such as vehicles without the owners signature in agreement.

More importantly it is all hypothetical. When you use the word 'will' it should be 'would'.

As for debt collectors finding people and tracing assets lol, particularly worldwide. I wouldn't want to be the one paying the bill and particularly galling if it was discovered that there were no assets.

I don't know how the term "LIEN" is applied in the UK or the rest of the EU, but in the states once someone gets an judgement against another person through the courts, then in order to collect the judgement if the defendant is not willing or cannot pay, is to attach a lien on the defendants properties to the amount in the judgement. Forgive my ignorance, but how do you get to have possession of someone's house in order to get your judgement paid as the definition MrT gave above ...."for instance, the party asserting the lien must have lawfully taken possession of the property." Is it not the use of a lien against the defendants property based on the judgement given by the courts is how you collect the money, once the defendant sells it or tries to refinance it. How can the person with the judgement and the lien can be in possession of the property, other than being a creditor to be paid once the property is liquidated.? Perhaps we are talking about different rules in different countries. Once again, I'm not a lawyer, but this is how liens work in the California (each state may vary of course) to the best of my knowledge.

Here is another definition on a "LIEN" in what I'm talking about.!

A lien is a legal claim or a "hold" on some type of property, whether personal or real property, making it collateral against monies or services owed to another person or entity. A lien usually exists in situations like second mortgages, loans against a vehicle title, or money loaned against any other substantial item owned by a borrower. It may keep the borrower from selling the property, or at least keep him or her from transferring title to the property.

Any property that carries a lien can be forced into sale by the lender, in order to collect what is owed, if the loan is in default. If the borrower decides to sell the property, the lien holder must be paid before the title will be cleared for transfer to the buyer.

There are different kinds of liens, and one of the most common is a mechanic's lien, also known as a construction lien. This type of lien is put into place when the property owner owes money for materials or labor which improved the property in some way. This can include repairs, maintenance, and new construction, as well as things like landscaping and renovation.

When purchasing real estate, it is important to make sure there is no lien on the property that will keep you from securing a clear title. This is accomplished by conducting, or hiring an abstract company to conduct, a title search or "abstract of title." This simply means developing and examining a collection of publicly recorded documents regarding the history of the property.

A title search will usually indicate whether or not a lien exists and whether the seller is the legally recognized property owner. It should also indicate the exact legal description of the property, as well as providing details regarding a lien or other encumbrances against the title. This is especially important if you are using creative financing techniques to purchase the property, such as owner financing or a land contract. Otherwise, once you have paid the agreed upon price, you may discover that you still do not own the property free and clear.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-lien.htm

[Jerry]

Kikapu, obviously from your definition above US law uses different terminology to English law. What you describe as a lien in relation to real estate is known in the UK as a charge.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, obviously from your definition above US law uses different terminology to English law. What you describe as a lien in relation to real estate is known in the UK as a charge.

Clearly, Jerry.!

It is said, that US and UK are separated by the same Ocean and same language....................ENGLISH.!

[bill cobbett]

Provisional Date has been set by the ECJ for the issuing of the judgment in the matter brought by Mr Apostolides.

Tuesday 28th April 09 30h

[Jerry]

Provisional Date has been set by the ECJ for the issuing of the judgment in the matter brought by Mr Apostolides.

Tuesday 28th April 09 30h

Bill, post it on Cyprus44 and then start up a business there selling brown trousers - you will make a fortune!

[bill cobbett]

Provisional Date has been set by the ECJ for the issuing of the judgment in the matter brought by Mr Apostolides.

Tuesday 28th April 09 30h

Bill, post it on Cyprus44 and then start up a business there selling brown trousers - you will make a fortune!

... and incontinence pants.