Cyprus-Forum.com

[Jerry]

I'm not sure if Cherie Blair (aka letterbox mouth) is going to be much help to Orams or "trnc" in future, in fact she may sue them herself.

From Cyprus PIO

The breakaway regime has reportedly given dud cheques to the lawyers of the Orams couple; Hasan Vahib denies the information noting that the Orams have sponsors
Under the title Is there a lawyers crisis in the Orams case? Turkish Cypriot daily Star Kibris newspaper (19.03.09) reports that according to information published in the Turkish Haber Turk newspaper on 15 March 2009 (page 12) under the title Partner swindle to Cherie Blair who defends the TRNC, Mrs Cherie Blair and her partner Bitu Bhalla, who defend the Orams couple in the lawsuit filed by the Greek Cypriot refugee Meletis Apostolides from Lapithos, have not received the amount of £270 thousand sent by the TRNC in return of their services.
Star Kibris publishes statements made by lawyer Hasan Vahib, who described the above information as groundless. He said: The TRNC is not paying the money of the Orams case. They have sponsors. Anyway, the case is continuing. We shall launch legal proceedings regarding the newspaper which published these allegations.
Vahib said that Mrs Blair is still defending the Orams couple, that no change was made in the team and that they expect a decision in their favor in April by the European Court of Justice.
Star Kibris reports that the news published in the Haber Turk newspaper was signed by Daphne Barak, who argued that the issue started when Blair and Bitu received a letter from the TRNC government that the payment was made some months ago and added: The TRNC government, noting that the amount of £270 thousand was paid some months ago, wants confirmation that the money reached its destination. After that, Bitu Bhalla telephons Hasan Vahib and asks what happened with the money.
The Turkish newspaper noted also that Mr Vahib confirmed the payment and said that £120 thousand was sent to Bhalla and £150 thousand to Blair, but alleged that the cheques were proved to be dud cheques.
http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

[YFred]

I'm not sure if Cherie Blair (aka letterbox mouth) is going to be much help to Orams or "trnc" in future, in fact she may sue them herself.

From Cyprus PIO

The breakaway regime has reportedly given dud cheques to the lawyers of the Orams couple; Hasan Vahib denies the information noting that the Orams have sponsors
Under the title Is there a lawyers crisis in the Orams case? Turkish Cypriot daily Star Kibris newspaper (19.03.09) reports that according to information published in the Turkish Haber Turk newspaper on 15 March 2009 (page 12) under the title Partner swindle to Cherie Blair who defends the TRNC, Mrs Cherie Blair and her partner Bitu Bhalla, who defend the Orams couple in the lawsuit filed by the Greek Cypriot refugee Meletis Apostolides from Lapithos, have not received the amount of £270 thousand sent by the TRNC in return of their services.
Star Kibris publishes statements made by lawyer Hasan Vahib, who described the above information as groundless. He said: The TRNC is not paying the money of the Orams case. They have sponsors. Anyway, the case is continuing. We shall launch legal proceedings regarding the newspaper which published these allegations.
Vahib said that Mrs Blair is still defending the Orams couple, that no change was made in the team and that they expect a decision in their favor in April by the European Court of Justice.
Star Kibris reports that the news published in the Haber Turk newspaper was signed by Daphne Barak, who argued that the issue started when Blair and Bitu received a letter from the TRNC government that the payment was made some months ago and added: The TRNC government, noting that the amount of £270 thousand was paid some months ago, wants confirmation that the money reached its destination. After that, Bitu Bhalla telephons Hasan Vahib and asks what happened with the money.
The Turkish newspaper noted also that Mr Vahib confirmed the payment and said that £120 thousand was sent to Bhalla and £150 thousand to Blair, but alleged that the cheques were proved to be dud cheques.
http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

Your comment on Mrs Blair is very unfair. She is not only a decent Lawyer but she is a decent human being too, unlike her husband.

[Kikapu]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

@CopperLine,

If your last post to Viewpoint does not make him think the serious ramifications of the ECJ ruling in the wings that will have in the north, then nothing will make VP see the light. Talat is scared worried about it, but not our great cavalier friend, VP.! Well done all the same with your explanations to him and us.

@Jerry,

You are assuming of course, that in the last 5 years since the crossings have been open, that the RoC government has not been "secretly" identifying those who live in GC property in the north, or who has bought and sold GC properties also. In almost all countries, property ownership is a matter of public record that one can get from their city hall, but lets just assume it is not the same in the north, then don't you think such information has been bought from those working on the inside of the "trnc". How about all those TC's who have gotten RoC ID's and Passports. Surely they wrote their names (names before 74 and after) and addresses in the north on their application forms, as well as their photographs. These names can easily be cross checked with names in other countries, mainly in the UK. Debt collectors specialise in finding people "on the run".

All the plaintiff (GC property owner) has to do (not personally), is to serve these individuals "on the run" with a summons of a lawsuit anywhere in the world for them to appear in a Nicosia Court, and if they do not show up, which majority will not, then a judgement will be given against them for the plaintiff to go after them. All the plaintiff has to do with the help of specialized debt collectors, is to identify where the assets are in any EU country, and maybe even in some other non EU countries depending what agreement the RoC has with them, is to put a lien to the amount of the judgement on the house, bank account, business, expensive cars and so on. The person "on the run" does not even need to be informed by the plaintiff that he has put these liens on their property. They will either be informed by the lenders or that they will find out when the time comes to sell or refinance their property or business. The person on the run may decide to leave the liens as is to wait out the plaintiff, but here is an interesting dilemma for the person "on the run", and that is, which is the case in the states by the way, that each year the lien is not collected, a 10% penalty is added onto the original judgement. Basically, within 8 years, the original judgements value will double. The RoC can make this penalty percentage to anything they want. It could be 25%, in which case, the original judgement will double every 4 years.! This kinds of actions will destroy some of the people "on the run" financially, and VP still wonders how life will change in the north.!

[Jerry]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

@CopperLine,

If your last post to Viewpoint does not make him think the serious ramifications of the ECJ ruling in the wings that will have in the north, then nothing will make VP see the light. Talat is scared worried about it, but not our great cavalier friend, VP.! Well done all the same with your explanations to him and us.

@Jerry,

You are assuming of course, that in the last 5 years since the crossings have been open, that the RoC government has not been "secretly" identifying those who live in GC property in the north, or who has bought and sold GC properties also. In almost all countries, property ownership is a matter of public record that one can get from their city hall, but lets just assume it is not the same in the north, then don't you think such information has been bought from those working on the inside of the "trnc". How about all those TC's who have gotten RoC ID's and Passports. Surely they wrote their names (names before 74 and after) and addresses in the north on their application forms, as well as their photographs. These names can easily be cross checked with names in other countries, mainly in the UK. Debt collectors specialise in finding people "on the run".

All the plaintiff (GC property owner) has to do (not personally), is to serve these individuals "on the run" with a summons of a lawsuit anywhere in the world for them to appear in a Nicosia Court, and if they do not show up, which majority will not, then a judgement will be given against them for the plaintiff to go after them. All the plaintiff has to do with the help of specialized debt collectors, is to identify where the assets are in any EU country, and maybe even in some other non EU countries depending what agreement the RoC has with them, is to put a lien to the amount of the judgement on the house, bank account, business, expensive cars and so on. The person "on the run" does not even need to be informed by the plaintiff that he has put these liens on their property. They will either be informed by the lenders or that they will find out when the time comes to sell or refinance their property or business. The person on the run may decide to leave the liens as is to wait out the plaintiff, but here is an interesting dilemma for the person "on the run", and that is, which is the case in the states by the way, that each year the lien is not collected, a 10% penalty is added onto the original judgement. Basically, within 8 years, the original judgements value will double. The RoC can make this penalty percentage to anything they want. It could be 25%, in which case, the original judgement will double every 4 years.! This kinds of actions will destroy some of the people "on the run" financially, and VP still wonders how life will change in the north.!

You may be right about identifying TCs but finding the carpetbaggers and British TCs (who don't hold ROC passports) may not be so easy. I think, however, that the fear factor of litigation and possible closing of the "border" will have a profound affect on the property market in the north's economy and its inhabitants. I suppose it's possible that a TC working in the "land registry" in the north could be on "a nice little earner" one day soon.

I'm not sure if liens are applicable to land ownership, I believe a device called a "charge" is. I expect Copperline or someone with legal knowledge can explain.

[Jerry]

I'm not sure if Cherie Blair (aka letterbox mouth) is going to be much help to Orams or "trnc" in future, in fact she may sue them herself.

From Cyprus PIO

The breakaway regime has reportedly given dud cheques to the lawyers of the Orams couple; Hasan Vahib denies the information noting that the Orams have sponsors
Under the title Is there a lawyers crisis in the Orams case? Turkish Cypriot daily Star Kibris newspaper (19.03.09) reports that according to information published in the Turkish Haber Turk newspaper on 15 March 2009 (page 12) under the title Partner swindle to Cherie Blair who defends the TRNC, Mrs Cherie Blair and her partner Bitu Bhalla, who defend the Orams couple in the lawsuit filed by the Greek Cypriot refugee Meletis Apostolides from Lapithos, have not received the amount of £270 thousand sent by the TRNC in return of their services.
Star Kibris publishes statements made by lawyer Hasan Vahib, who described the above information as groundless. He said: The TRNC is not paying the money of the Orams case. They have sponsors. Anyway, the case is continuing. We shall launch legal proceedings regarding the newspaper which published these allegations.
Vahib said that Mrs Blair is still defending the Orams couple, that no change was made in the team and that they expect a decision in their favor in April by the European Court of Justice.
Star Kibris reports that the news published in the Haber Turk newspaper was signed by Daphne Barak, who argued that the issue started when Blair and Bitu received a letter from the TRNC government that the payment was made some months ago and added: The TRNC government, noting that the amount of £270 thousand was paid some months ago, wants confirmation that the money reached its destination. After that, Bitu Bhalla telephons Hasan Vahib and asks what happened with the money.
The Turkish newspaper noted also that Mr Vahib confirmed the payment and said that £120 thousand was sent to Bhalla and £150 thousand to Blair, but alleged that the cheques were proved to be dud cheques.
http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

Your comment on Mrs Blair is very unfair. She is not only a decent Lawyer but she is a decent human being too, unlike her husband.

You are not serious are you? The woman is supposed to be a lawyer who specialises in HUMAN RIGHTS, and yet she defends thieves like Orams against litigants who have had their human rights infringed.

[Viewpoint]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

So if Tcs have no property in the EU then our daily lives will not change. The borders will not close as the EU will not aloow this to happen.

[Nikitas]

The vital point in the Orams case, a point repeated time and again in the ECHR, and which will be reasserted at the ECJ is that human rights cannot be discounted in any solution.

The result is that the Turks and TCs will have to forget the dream of creating an exclusively Turkish zone in the north. As most legal decisions this one too is a double edged sword, the "developers" in the south will not be able to exploit cheap abandoned TC land. Ownership and enjoyment of property stand as per the European convention of human rights and that is that.

A similar course is observed in the case of property rights of Greeks in Istanbul and the islands of Imvros and Tenedos.

The "antidote" invented by TCs lately is the so called Evkaf property by which they are trying to lay claim to most of the land in the whole of Cyprus and hence try to offset human rights rulings. The obvious problem there is the intermediate British rule during which no claims were made re the Evkaf properties nor were there any moves to register it with the Land Registry which back then was a British institution.

The situation shows that the TC side is clutching at straws to retain the dream of a Turks only statelet in the north and that dream is simply not going to be realised in the EU. The rules of a continent are not going to be changed to accomodate 120 000 people and the psychoses of their leadership.

[Kikapu]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

@CopperLine,

If your last post to Viewpoint does not make him think the serious ramifications of the ECJ ruling in the wings that will have in the north, then nothing will make VP see the light. Talat is scared worried about it, but not our great cavalier friend, VP.! Well done all the same with your explanations to him and us.

@Jerry,

You are assuming of course, that in the last 5 years since the crossings have been open, that the RoC government has not been "secretly" identifying those who live in GC property in the north, or who has bought and sold GC properties also. In almost all countries, property ownership is a matter of public record that one can get from their city hall, but lets just assume it is not the same in the north, then don't you think such information has been bought from those working on the inside of the "trnc". How about all those TC's who have gotten RoC ID's and Passports. Surely they wrote their names (names before 74 and after) and addresses in the north on their application forms, as well as their photographs. These names can easily be cross checked with names in other countries, mainly in the UK. Debt collectors specialise in finding people "on the run".

All the plaintiff (GC property owner) has to do (not personally), is to serve these individuals "on the run" with a summons of a lawsuit anywhere in the world for them to appear in a Nicosia Court, and if they do not show up, which majority will not, then a judgement will be given against them for the plaintiff to go after them. All the plaintiff has to do with the help of specialized debt collectors, is to identify where the assets are in any EU country, and maybe even in some other non EU countries depending what agreement the RoC has with them, is to put a lien to the amount of the judgement on the house, bank account, business, expensive cars and so on. The person "on the run" does not even need to be informed by the plaintiff that he has put these liens on their property. They will either be informed by the lenders or that they will find out when the time comes to sell or refinance their property or business. The person on the run may decide to leave the liens as is to wait out the plaintiff, but here is an interesting dilemma for the person "on the run", and that is, which is the case in the states by the way, that each year the lien is not collected, a 10% penalty is added onto the original judgement. Basically, within 8 years, the original judgements value will double. The RoC can make this penalty percentage to anything they want. It could be 25%, in which case, the original judgement will double every 4 years.! This kinds of actions will destroy some of the people "on the run" financially, and VP still wonders how life will change in the north.!

You may be right about identifying TCs but finding the carpetbaggers and British TCs (who don't hold ROC passports) may not be so easy. I think, however, that the fear factor of litigation and possible closing of the "border" will have a profound affect on the property market in the north's economy and its inhabitants. I suppose it's possible that a TC working in the "land registry" in the north could be on "a nice little earner" one day soon.

I'm not sure if liens are applicable to land ownership, I believe a device called a "charge" is. I expect Copperline or someone with legal knowledge can explain.

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

[Viewpoint]

VP, enforcement will change the daily lives of many in the north who acquired GC property illegally and who also own property in an EU country. The problem, as I see it, for the dispossed GCs is that of identifying these occupants in order to instigate proceedings. The "trnc" will surely be tempted to close the crossings in order to frustrate legal actions - THAT will affect your daily lives.

@CopperLine,

If your last post to Viewpoint does not make him think the serious ramifications of the ECJ ruling in the wings that will have in the north, then nothing will make VP see the light. Talat is scared worried about it, but not our great cavalier friend, VP.! Well done all the same with your explanations to him and us.

@Jerry,

You are assuming of course, that in the last 5 years since the crossings have been open, that the RoC government has not been "secretly" identifying those who live in GC property in the north, or who has bought and sold GC properties also. In almost all countries, property ownership is a matter of public record that one can get from their city hall, but lets just assume it is not the same in the north, then don't you think such information has been bought from those working on the inside of the "trnc". How about all those TC's who have gotten RoC ID's and Passports. Surely they wrote their names (names before 74 and after) and addresses in the north on their application forms, as well as their photographs. These names can easily be cross checked with names in other countries, mainly in the UK. Debt collectors specialise in finding people "on the run".

All the plaintiff (GC property owner) has to do (not personally), is to serve these individuals "on the run" with a summons of a lawsuit anywhere in the world for them to appear in a Nicosia Court, and if they do not show up, which majority will not, then a judgement will be given against them for the plaintiff to go after them. All the plaintiff has to do with the help of specialized debt collectors, is to identify where the assets are in any EU country, and maybe even in some other non EU countries depending what agreement the RoC has with them, is to put a lien to the amount of the judgement on the house, bank account, business, expensive cars and so on. The person "on the run" does not even need to be informed by the plaintiff that he has put these liens on their property. They will either be informed by the lenders or that they will find out when the time comes to sell or refinance their property or business. The person on the run may decide to leave the liens as is to wait out the plaintiff, but here is an interesting dilemma for the person "on the run", and that is, which is the case in the states by the way, that each year the lien is not collected, a 10% penalty is added onto the original judgement. Basically, within 8 years, the original judgements value will double. The RoC can make this penalty percentage to anything they want. It could be 25%, in which case, the original judgement will double every 4 years.! This kinds of actions will destroy some of the people "on the run" financially, and VP still wonders how life will change in the north.!

You may be right about identifying TCs but finding the carpetbaggers and British TCs (who don't hold ROC passports) may not be so easy. I think, however, that the fear factor of litigation and possible closing of the "border" will have a profound affect on the property market in the north's economy and its inhabitants. I suppose it's possible that a TC working in the "land registry" in the north could be on "a nice little earner" one day soon.

I'm not sure if liens are applicable to land ownership, I believe a device called a "charge" is. I expect Copperline or someone with legal knowledge can explain.

Once a civil judgement is made against the defendants, the Plaintiff then can use that judgment to collect the award, and the only way that I know how one can collect, is by putting liens on anything that the defendants has. It is irrelevant what the subject of the litigation was regarding, land or immovable property. The hardest part of any judgment won, is collecting on that judgement. Declaring bankruptcy can eliminate such judgements, unless fraud was involved in the case presented in the courts, and I suppose, selling/buying stolen property can be viewed as fraud, in which case, the defendants are in deep shit.!

Meletis Apostolides had a judgement against the Orams from Nicosia Courts which he could have put lien against their property in the UK, if such agreement is there between Cyprus and the UK. But of course, Meletis Apostolides was not after money for his own self, but the aim was to get the legal ruling that he has gotten that will be applied by all GC refugees who's properties are in the hands of others. He was on a mission much bigger than what he could have gotten for himself, and he is almost there that will bear his name in the fabric of EU legal laws.

As for the carpet beggars and the Brits, they are in the minority as to who has bought GC properties. Overwhelming majority are the TC's themselves, which most live in the UK and the rest in the north. The long arm of the law will get to those no matter where they are, is only question of time who's turn will be from one day to the next, but in the end, the law will get them.

Will that mean TCs living in the UK who have assets wil have them siezed? lets see how this will happen, should be very interetsing. Maybe a few arrests will cause goodwill between the 2 comunities.

[YFred]

I'm not sure if Cherie Blair (aka letterbox mouth) is going to be much help to Orams or "trnc" in future, in fact she may sue them herself.

From Cyprus PIO

The breakaway regime has reportedly given dud cheques to the lawyers of the Orams couple; Hasan Vahib denies the information noting that the Orams have sponsors
Under the title Is there a lawyers crisis in the Orams case? Turkish Cypriot daily Star Kibris newspaper (19.03.09) reports that according to information published in the Turkish Haber Turk newspaper on 15 March 2009 (page 12) under the title Partner swindle to Cherie Blair who defends the TRNC, Mrs Cherie Blair and her partner Bitu Bhalla, who defend the Orams couple in the lawsuit filed by the Greek Cypriot refugee Meletis Apostolides from Lapithos, have not received the amount of £270 thousand sent by the TRNC in return of their services.
Star Kibris publishes statements made by lawyer Hasan Vahib, who described the above information as groundless. He said: The TRNC is not paying the money of the Orams case. They have sponsors. Anyway, the case is continuing. We shall launch legal proceedings regarding the newspaper which published these allegations.
Vahib said that Mrs Blair is still defending the Orams couple, that no change was made in the team and that they expect a decision in their favor in April by the European Court of Justice.
Star Kibris reports that the news published in the Haber Turk newspaper was signed by Daphne Barak, who argued that the issue started when Blair and Bitu received a letter from the TRNC government that the payment was made some months ago and added: The TRNC government, noting that the amount of £270 thousand was paid some months ago, wants confirmation that the money reached its destination. After that, Bitu Bhalla telephons Hasan Vahib and asks what happened with the money.
The Turkish newspaper noted also that Mr Vahib confirmed the payment and said that £120 thousand was sent to Bhalla and £150 thousand to Blair, but alleged that the cheques were proved to be dud cheques.
http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/200 ... pr.html#01

Your comment on Mrs Blair is very unfair. She is not only a decent Lawyer but she is a decent human being too, unlike her husband.

You are not serious are you? The woman is supposed to be a lawyer who specialises in HUMAN RIGHTS, and yet she defends thieves like Orams against litigants who have had their human rights infringed.

Its not as simple as that and you know it. Perhaps she is defending the TCs human rights, oohps I forgot, we are not allowed that, sorry.