Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

The Orams/Apostolides matter has been referred to the ECJ for a definitive judgement on the matter of enforcing a member state's court judgement in areas where the member state has effectively no practical recourse and some other related matters to do with service of documents and whether the Orams had due notice and due representation.

In interpreting existing legislation by making the judgement and by way of its definitive opinion the ECJ will be making a new EU-wide law by way of new "case law" in this area. A new case law which national courts will be able to refer to in future.

Not unusual for supreme courts to make new case laws, to fill in gaps in existing laws and give definitive interpretations.

All this time and they chickened out and did not deliver a ruling?
What does it mean Charlie?

[bill cobbett]

We will see. After we will win the Orams case then expect the Cypriot courts to start convicting one thief after another. They will order them to demolish the houses they build illegally and pay the rent. If they don't then warrants for their arrest will be made enforceable in all EU. If those people want to continue the illegalities then they should better sell everything they have in any EU country and lock themselves in the pseudo state.

... And given what Sotos says - when they pass away, no matter how well they've hidden the money out of the reach of EU jurisdiction during their lifetimes, never, ever let any part of their estate come within EU jurisdiction nor seek probate in an EU court cos their executors and their children/heirs will pay the price.

[bill cobbett]

Re Freddo! there is no ruling yet. At guess give it until the early summer.

[YFred]

Re Freddo! there is no ruling yet. At guess give it until the early summer.

Gumbare, I though you were ignoring me. I thought you said they were passing it on to another court. Gasha load of domades and assikdir to them.

[Kikapu]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

Thanks for your post CopperLine for clearing up few things. Actually, it was me who made the mistake between the ECHR and the ECJ and not the "reliable source", who happens to "own" some stolen GC land by the way. What it all boils down to, is that there are a lot of people out there who are in a "panic mode" regarding the "interpretation of the legal ECJ ruling", which will make many think twice about ever wanting the north to be part of the EU now or in the future, specially all those who live in other EU member states, mainly in the UK. One would then say, "in that case, there will not be a settlement if it means losing out on "their" stolen GC land", but all this is a mute point really, because what Turkey wants is the EU, and when she is ready to become a EU member, all those who may oppose a settlement now, will be pushed aside without a second thought in the future. In the meantime, the south will continue to prosper and the north will just about stay the same, if not go into reverse gear.! Basically, it means bad news for the TC’s all around, because the EU’s “legalities noose” already around their necks, will get just a little tighter.!

[bill cobbett]

By the way, there may be further bad new for the would-be northern land scammers and the tnct if the Orans lose, bad enough as that will be, cos Apostolides would have to go back to GB courts for an enforcement/remedy order, one which of course the Orans could appeal (again) so this affair could have years to to go yet.

[Viewpoint]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

Thanks for your post CopperLine for clearing up few things. Actually, it was me who made the mistake between the ECHR and the ECJ and not the "reliable source", who happens to "own" some stolen GC land by the way. What it all boils down to, is that there are a lot of people out there who are in a "panic mode" regarding the "interpretation of the legal ECJ ruling", which will make many think twice about ever wanting the north to be part of the EU now or in the future, specially all those who live in other EU member states, mainly in the UK. One would then say, "in that case, there will not be a settlement if it means losing out on "their" stolen GC land", but all this is a mute point really, because what Turkey wants is the EU, and when she is ready to become a EU member, all those who may oppose a settlement now, will be pushed aside without a second thought in the future. In the meantime, the south will continue to prosper and the north will just about stay the same, if not go into reverse gear.! Basically, it means bad news for the TC’s all around, because the EU’s “legalities noose” already around their necks, will get just a little tighter.!

How will it change our daily lives?

[Kikapu]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

Thanks for your post CopperLine for clearing up few things. Actually, it was me who made the mistake between the ECHR and the ECJ and not the "reliable source", who happens to "own" some stolen GC land by the way. What it all boils down to, is that there are a lot of people out there who are in a "panic mode" regarding the "interpretation of the legal ECJ ruling", which will make many think twice about ever wanting the north to be part of the EU now or in the future, specially all those who live in other EU member states, mainly in the UK. One would then say, "in that case, there will not be a settlement if it means losing out on "their" stolen GC land", but all this is a mute point really, because what Turkey wants is the EU, and when she is ready to become a EU member, all those who may oppose a settlement now, will be pushed aside without a second thought in the future. In the meantime, the south will continue to prosper and the north will just about stay the same, if not go into reverse gear.! Basically, it means bad news for the TC’s all around, because the EU’s “legalities noose” already around their necks, will get just a little tighter.!

How will it change our daily lives?

Well, it will not get better for you, if that's what you mean, VP.!

One can only run the illegalities gauntlet so long before you need to live by the Rule of Law if you ever want to improve the lives of the TC's and their future.!

[Viewpoint]

During my recent trip to the UK, I was made aware, that many TC's were taking "sudden" trips to the "trnc", in believing that the Oram's legal ruling by the ECHR was to become EU Law today, March 19th.....................or soon after.! I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law very soon which will turn the north upside-down on it's head, which will throw a "monkey wrench" in Talat's attempt to resolve the GC owned property issue by using compensation as a formula to make the north "Turkish Land". When this legal ruling becomes law, not even Christofias will be able to give Talat what he wants, because each individual GC owner of land in the north will also have a say so what goes on in the property negotiations. It will be as if Talat will be negotiating with Christifias as well as 200,000 GC refugees from then on.! But of course, that will come after the property market of GC land in the north is destroyed by this ruling that is.! At that point, all GC property in the north will become "Radioactive" to others, other than to it's rightful legal owners.!

Good luck, Mr. Talat.!

I was told by a reliable source, that this ruling is about to become law ....

1. A ruling doesn't become law. A ruling or adjudication is the interpretation of law. ECHR or any other court is not a legislature, it is a judicial chamber interpreting laws. So when ECHR comes to a judgement it is clarifying and therefore interpreting the law.

2. Your reliable source evidently doesn't know the difference between the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights, which is a Council of Europe institution) and the European Court of Justice (ECJ, which is the court of the European Union). The Oram's case is before the ECJ not the ECHR.

3. Therefore it cannot be the case that a decision on the Oram's was to become EU law as a result of an ECHR judgement. Wrong court, wrong understanding of the relationship between adjudication and law.

4. It was always going to be the case that whatever the terms of a political settlement between Talat and Christofias (or whoever) that individuals could still pursue human rights (or other cases) through national, EU, and international courts. Any result of the Oram's case - whichever way it goes (though more than likely to go 'against' the Orams) - will simply confirm this.

Thanks for your post CopperLine for clearing up few things. Actually, it was me who made the mistake between the ECHR and the ECJ and not the "reliable source", who happens to "own" some stolen GC land by the way. What it all boils down to, is that there are a lot of people out there who are in a "panic mode" regarding the "interpretation of the legal ECJ ruling", which will make many think twice about ever wanting the north to be part of the EU now or in the future, specially all those who live in other EU member states, mainly in the UK. One would then say, "in that case, there will not be a settlement if it means losing out on "their" stolen GC land", but all this is a mute point really, because what Turkey wants is the EU, and when she is ready to become a EU member, all those who may oppose a settlement now, will be pushed aside without a second thought in the future. In the meantime, the south will continue to prosper and the north will just about stay the same, if not go into reverse gear.! Basically, it means bad news for the TC’s all around, because the EU’s “legalities noose” already around their necks, will get just a little tighter.!

How will it change our daily lives?

Well, it will not get better for you, if that's what you mean, VP.!

One can only run the illegalities gauntlet so long before you need to live by the Rule of Law if you ever want to improve the lives of the TC's and their future.!

So all that drival you have spouted out is hot air.

[CopperLine]

We will see. After we will win the Orams case then expect the Cypriot courts to start convicting one thief after another. They will order them to demolish the houses they build illegally and pay the rent. If they don't then warrants for their arrest will be made enforceable in all EU. If those people want to continue the illegalities then they should better sell everything they have in any EU country and lock themselves in the pseudo state.

Sotos,
The point remains that cases have to be brought by plaintiffs (complainants) i.e, by wronged parties. The state can't/doesn't automatically do this for people. One can't take a civil action 'by proxy'.

If you think that other EU states and courts are going to be enthusiastically prosecuting, enforcing and processing Cyprus property cases through their legal systems you'll be sorely disappointed.

What will be interesting to see is quite how many GCs with illegally occupied property in the north actually do make claims through the courts ? To estimate the scale of possible cases let's take the oft-quoted figure of c.200,000 GC refugees and, for argument's sake propose that there are five people per family and one property per family. That's 40,000 potential cases. After 35 years do people think we'll have tens of thousands of cases actually pursued ? Or thousands of cases ? Or perhaps just a few hundreds of cases ?

In other cases across Europe and elsewhere, refugees have tended not to (a) return en masse or (b) not laid claims, with the rate declining steeply after a few years of exile and dropping acutely within a generation. This is not an absolute but a tendency. I wonder what will happen in the peculiar circumstances of Cyprus ?