Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

63 v 74 ?

May I say immediately that this isn't about relative attrocities.

I'll join with anyone who is prepared to forgive the other community if not individual criminals and to move on. Forget ? That's another matter for we would be foolish to think that the events of '74 say could ever be forgotten. Our generation has written yet another notably notorious chapter in the long Cy tragedy.

Well all the above is pretty uncontentious, maybe enough to make some feel that I'll be joining others here to walk hand in hand up Ledra. Sorry, not quite yet!

Happy to move on, many here are happy to move on; but we have a problem with some of our northern friends. It's been said before ( I don't claim any originality) that almost all of our northern friends will use what they see as the events of 63 to determine the future. Every other post reverts to the events of 63 to promote special privileges, special guarantees and special safeguards. Tens of thousands of posts, all repeating the same old, lame excuses for special treatment. They cannot go unchallenged of course, this is an argumentative forum so we all get dragged back to 1963. Naturally the response to the events of 63 are those of 74.

...but let me ask this by way of a challenge to all ...Find a single post amongst 00,000s where the events of 74 have been used to dictate or determine the future in the same ways and to the same extent as those of 63.

Yes move on from 2009 onwards but some here would do well to remember that there is a difference between between reconciliation and capitulation to special treatment. When they've learnt it, I'll join them on the stroll up Ledra.

[Viewpoint]

63 v 74 ?

May I say immediately that this isn't about relative attrocities.

I'll join with anyone who is prepared to forgive the other community if not individual criminals and to move on. Forget ? That's another matter for we would be foolish to think that the events of '74 say could ever be forgotten. Our generation has written yet another notably notorious chapter in the long Cy tragedy.

Well all the above is pretty uncontentious, maybe enough to make some feel that I'll be joining others here to walk hand in hand up Ledra. Sorry, not quite yet!

Happy to move on, many here are happy to move on; but we have a problem with some of our northern friends. It's been said before ( I don't claim any originality) that almost all of our northern friends will use what they see as the events of 63 to determine the future. Every other post reverts to the events of 63 to promote special privileges, special guarantees and special safeguards. Tens of thousands of posts, all repeating the same old, lame excuses for special treatment. They cannot go unchallenged of course, this is an argumentative forum so we all get dragged back to 1963. Naturally the response to the events of 63 are those of 74.

...but let me ask this by way of a challenge to all ...Find a single post amongst 00,000s where the events of 74 have been used to dictate or determine the future in the same ways and to the same extent as those of 63.

Yes move on from 2009 onwards but some here would do well to remember that there is a difference between between reconciliation and capitulation to special treatment. When they've learnt it, I'll join them on the stroll up Ledra.

Dumping of Turkeys guarantees.

[insan]

Sorry but i have never considered consociationalism as a special treatment and will never consider it such. I agree with forgiving each other. I personally will never give up defending consociational democracy. Don't forget that we r 2 deeply divided communities. Most of us look for weaknesses of other side to attack and gain a so-called political point, turn the situation in favour of his/her group, self-satisfaction etc, etc.

I still strongly believe that GCs have nothing to loose in a united Cyprus which 2 communities have political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

I strongly believe that even if our population ratio have been 50/50 there would still have been huge communal, national and personal interest clashes. In a Cyprus where "majority rules" which equals to GC rule; TCs would be doomed to loose almost every case they considered detrimental for their communal, national and personal interests.

In this capitalist world, we r all aware of that money and political power talks. It is certain to me that even if vast majority of both communities forgive each other; we would always look each other with pre-judice and doubt. Even some small incidents would cause feeding of prejudice and doubt to a greater extend.

However, having political equality on legislative and judicial bodies would be far better than being a minority in Cyprus.

[bill cobbett]

63 v 74 ?

May I say immediately that this isn't about relative attrocities.

I'll join with anyone who is prepared to forgive the other community if not individual criminals and to move on. Forget ? That's another matter for we would be foolish to think that the events of '74 say could ever be forgotten. Our generation has written yet another notably notorious chapter in the long Cy tragedy.

Well all the above is pretty uncontentious, maybe enough to make some feel that I'll be joining others here to walk hand in hand up Ledra. Sorry, not quite yet!

Happy to move on, many here are happy to move on; but we have a problem with some of our northern friends. It's been said before ( I don't claim any originality) that almost all of our northern friends will use what they see as the events of 63 to determine the future. Every other post reverts to the events of 63 to promote special privileges, special guarantees and special safeguards. Tens of thousands of posts, all repeating the same old, lame excuses for special treatment. They cannot go unchallenged of course, this is an argumentative forum so we all get dragged back to 1963. Naturally the response to the events of 63 are those of 74.

...but let me ask this by way of a challenge to all ...Find a single post amongst 00,000s where the events of 74 have been used to dictate or determine the future in the same ways and to the same extent as those of 63.

Yes move on from 2009 onwards but some here would do well to remember that there is a difference between between reconciliation and capitulation to special treatment. When they've learnt it, I'll join them on the stroll up Ledra.

Dumping of Turkeys guarantees.

.... Dumping of Turkish guarantees? Ended with EU Accession five years ago. Shall we move on?

[Viewpoint]

63 v 74 ?

May I say immediately that this isn't about relative attrocities.

I'll join with anyone who is prepared to forgive the other community if not individual criminals and to move on. Forget ? That's another matter for we would be foolish to think that the events of '74 say could ever be forgotten. Our generation has written yet another notably notorious chapter in the long Cy tragedy.

Well all the above is pretty uncontentious, maybe enough to make some feel that I'll be joining others here to walk hand in hand up Ledra. Sorry, not quite yet!

Happy to move on, many here are happy to move on; but we have a problem with some of our northern friends. It's been said before ( I don't claim any originality) that almost all of our northern friends will use what they see as the events of 63 to determine the future. Every other post reverts to the events of 63 to promote special privileges, special guarantees and special safeguards. Tens of thousands of posts, all repeating the same old, lame excuses for special treatment. They cannot go unchallenged of course, this is an argumentative forum so we all get dragged back to 1963. Naturally the response to the events of 63 are those of 74.

...but let me ask this by way of a challenge to all ...Find a single post amongst 00,000s where the events of 74 have been used to dictate or determine the future in the same ways and to the same extent as those of 63.

Yes move on from 2009 onwards but some here would do well to remember that there is a difference between between reconciliation and capitulation to special treatment. When they've learnt it, I'll join them on the stroll up Ledra.

Dumping of Turkeys guarantees.

.... Dumping of Turkish guarantees? Ended with EU Accession five years ago. Shall we move on?

We are talking about changes demanded by the GCs based on the events of 1974...We did not agree to its removal.

[bill cobbett]

Sorry but i have never considered consociationalism as a special treatment and will never consider it such. I agree with forgiving each other. I personally will never give up defending consociational democracy. Don't forget that we r 2 deeply divided communities. Most of us look for weaknesses of other side to attack and gain a so-called political point, turn the situation in favour of his/her group, self-satisfaction etc, etc.

I still strongly believe that GCs have nothing to loose in a united Cyprus which 2 communities have political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

I strongly believe that even if our population ratio have been 50/50 there would still have been huge communal, national and personal interest clashes. In a Cyprus where "majority rules" which equals to GC rule; TCs would be doomed to loose almost every case they considered detrimental for their communal, national and personal interests.

In this capitalist world, we r all aware of that money and political power talks. It is certain to me that even if vast majority of both communities forgive each other; we would always look each other with pre-judice and doubt. Even some small incidents would cause feeding of prejudice and doubt to a greater extend.

However, having political equality on legislative and judicial bodies would be far better than being a minority in Cyprus.

If I may say so Insan I'm sure your motives are pretty decent but to the best of my knowledge this consoc. you refer to applies in the real world in cases where there are more than two communities of roughly equal ratios.

Suggest you look at the Northern Ireland power sharing constitution for a more suitable model. (albeit a 55:45 ratio there).

[bill cobbett]

63 v 74 ?

May I say immediately that this isn't about relative attrocities.

I'll join with anyone who is prepared to forgive the other community if not individual criminals and to move on. Forget ? That's another matter for we would be foolish to think that the events of '74 say could ever be forgotten. Our generation has written yet another notably notorious chapter in the long Cy tragedy.

Well all the above is pretty uncontentious, maybe enough to make some feel that I'll be joining others here to walk hand in hand up Ledra. Sorry, not quite yet!



Happy to move on, many here are happy to move on; but we have a problem with some of our northern friends. It's been said before ( I don't claim any originality) that almost all of our northern friends will use what they see as the events of 63 to determine the future. Every other post reverts to the events of 63 to promote special privileges, special guarantees and special safeguards. Tens of thousands of posts, all repeating the same old, lame excuses for special treatment. They cannot go unchallenged of course, this is an argumentative forum so we all get dragged back to 1963. Naturally the response to the events of 63 are those of 74.

...but let me ask this by way of a challenge to all ...Find a single post amongst 00,000s where the events of 74 have been used to dictate or determine the future in the same ways and to the same extent as those of 63.

Yes move on from 2009 onwards but some here would do well to remember that there is a difference between between reconciliation and capitulation to special treatment. When they've learnt it, I'll join them on the stroll up Ledra.

Dumping of Turkeys guarantees.

.... Dumping of Turkish guarantees? Ended with EU Accession five years ago. Shall we move on?

We are talking about changes demanded by the GCs based on the events of 1974...We did not agree to its removal.

I can only refer you to the EU again VP. The Treaty of Rome is a "force majeure", EU law takes precedence over national laws. This matter was decided with EU entry.

Why do you require this Turkish guarantee? Why is it important to you?

[insan]

Sorry but i have never considered consociationalism as a special treatment and will never consider it such. I agree with forgiving each other. I personally will never give up defending consociational democracy. Don't forget that we r 2 deeply divided communities. Most of us look for weaknesses of other side to attack and gain a so-called political point, turn the situation in favour of his/her group, self-satisfaction etc, etc.

I still strongly believe that GCs have nothing to loose in a united Cyprus which 2 communities have political equality on legislative and judicial bodies.

I strongly believe that even if our population ratio have been 50/50 there would still have been huge communal, national and personal interest clashes. In a Cyprus where "majority rules" which equals to GC rule; TCs would be doomed to loose almost every case they considered detrimental for their communal, national and personal interests.

In this capitalist world, we r all aware of that money and political power talks. It is certain to me that even if vast majority of both communities forgive each other; we would always look each other with pre-judice and doubt. Even some small incidents would cause feeding of prejudice and doubt to a greater extend.

However, having political equality on legislative and judicial bodies would be far better than being a minority in Cyprus.

If I may say so Insan I'm sure your motives are pretty decent but to the best of my knowledge this consoc. you refer to applies in the real world in cases where there are more than two communities of roughly equal ratios.

Suggest you look at the Northern Ireland power sharing constitution for a more suitable model. (albeit a 55:45 ratio there).

This study addresses the question of what makes ethnic quota systems in parliament work to manage ethnopolitical violence. By a reconstruction of Arend Lijphart's theory on consociationalism, two causal mechanisms are identified. The first mechanism levels the power balance of contending groups by permanent inclusion in parliament. The second mechanism reduces the number of conflict issues to be agreed on jointly, but decentralization of decision-making to the respective ethnic groups. According to the logic of consociationalism, ethnic quotas in parliament are expected to prevent violence by leveling the power balance in parliament. The study includes an investigation of the ethnic quota systems of the world. Two cases which challenge Lijphart's theory in two different ways are selected for in-depth analysis. Contrary to the predictions of consociational theory, Cyprus as a typical consociational case has failed in conflict management, whereas New Zealand as the prime example of non-consociational cases has succeeded in promoting peace. The essence of consociational theory is reconstructed in a two-player game which is applied to the cases of ethnic relations in Cyprus and New Zealand. The conclusion is that ethnic quotas can contribute to changes in the actor's ranking order of preferences by upgrading the value of cooperation. [b]Only under the condition that the actors appreciate the mutual benefits of such cooperation, can ethnic quotas contribute to viable peace.[/b]

In Cyprus consociationalism didn't work just because 1 of the players didn't appreciate the mutual benefits of such cooperation. Frankly speaking; I believe that the Enosis aspiration and Turkophobia/historical hatred of GCs+Hellenes caused 1 of the players namely Hellenes not to appreciate the mutual benefits of such cooperation. However I don't blame Hellenes having such a Turcophobia or hatred originating from our common historical background. I blame those Hellenes who exagerrated, distorted the facts to spread Turcophobia and hatred among ordinary Hellenes in order to make Cyprus a Hellen island and score 1 more goal into goal post of "barbarian" Turks.

http://www.coronetbooks.com/books/c/chan4924.htm

[Sotos]

I will forgive TCs when they give us back our land and they stop trying to make Turkish the north part of our country. It is not about what they did it in the past but what they continue doing today against us.

[bill cobbett]

In Cyprus consociationalism didn't work just because 1 of the players didn't appreciate the mutual benefits of such cooperation. Frankly speaking; I believe that the Enosis aspiration and Turkophobia/historical hatred of GCs+Hellenes caused 1 of the players namely Hellenes not to appreciate the mutual benefits of such cooperation. However I don't blame Hellenes having such a Turcophobia or hatred originating from our common historical background. I blame those Hellenes who exagerrated, distorted the facts to spread Turcophobia and hatred among ordinary Hellenes in order to make Cyprus a Hellen island and score 1 more goal into goal post of "barbarian" Turks.

http://www.coronetbooks.com/books/c/chan4924.htm

Well we all feel strongly about things mate or else we wouldn't be here.

Insan you xerocephalic staphilophage, this last very one sided paragraph of yours, which doesn't bear any resemblance to any reality that I'm aware of. When did all this claimed nbollxxcks of yours happen?