Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I dont think I want people like Piratis or Oracle taking decisions for me, Im just fine as I am.

I am sure if they gave you a stole Ferrari you would accept it as well. So I really didn't expect from you to say you are not fine.

That's because you are a generalizing racist old fool.

I have nothing stolen.

Plus what the hell am I going to do with a cheesy Ferrari in Cyprus?

I am not generalizing, I am talking about you specifically. You said "I am fine as I am" even thought what you have today is a pseudo state created on land stolen from Greek Cypriots.

You support the stealing of land and the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people, and then you accuse me of racism because I point out your racism?

That's utter crap.

Because you know nothing about me, you ASSUME that just because I am TC I must be living on stolen property, THAT is racism!

I am from Lefka, this place was never Greek, nothing here is Greek, look it up.

I didn't say you live on stolen property - i don't know if you do or don't. You live on some "state" which is created by stealing the land and ethnically cleansing 100s of thousands of innocent people, and you support this and you say that you are fine as you are. Don't you?

But your question is misleading.

I live where I used to live when you were trying to murder us all.

I say I am fine as I am regarding majority vote and having people like you voting on my future.

I never accepted nor asked for this situation, and judging by history I do not want to be in the same situation as before either, when you actually could vote for me.

So this is not about what I support, because that would make it sound like I actually have a choice.

Just because I do not agree with you does not mean "I support illegalities".

Only in your flawed argument one would be left with either "supporting illegalities" or "accepting your so called democracy", but since that is not the case then it does not matter.

The democracy I support is exactly the same as it exists in every other EU country.

The murders were in fact started by your side, exactly because they didn't want to allow democracy and self-determination to Cyprus.



In fact a real democracy was never allowed by you in Cyprus.

Don't you support a separate Turkish state created on land which belongs by over 80% to Greek Cypriots, the people you ethnically cleansed?

[shahmaran]

No one can really tell who started the murders but one thing is for sure and that is up until the moment Turkey stepped in everyone was living in shit holes waiting to die.

That was what you chose fit for your people, you were not fighting Turkey but your own people. Because of your racist culture and objective.

Turks didn't start this you did!

What I support does not matter as it is unachievable with ideas like you around, so there is a big difference with what you want and what you would want.

[Piratis]

We hear so many objections about "Majority Rule" because the TCs fear they will not be heard, being only 18%, and so it is seen as a way for the GCs to rule over everyone.

But for most things passing through government legislature, I'll bet the TCs would vote exactly the same way as Mr and Mrs Average Yiannis GCopoulos.

For instance:

Should we spend more on the Health service? Yes or No
Should it be illegal to name a pig Napoleon? Yes or No
Should we improve our Roads? Yes or No
Should we cut Carbon emissions? Yes or No
Should people over 70 be forced to wear false teeth? Yes or No
Should we have heavier fines for animal cruelty? Yes or No
Should we strive to make Cyprus a Global Economy? Yes or No
Should we help the poor and underprivileged? Yes or No
Should we reduce the retirement age to 50? Yes or No

Well I don't know about you, but I voted Yes to 8 out of the 9.

I reckon most people would vote the same as me!

So what's wrong with Majority Rule?

When majority rules in Cyprus; highly probable to occure situations:

1- Objection of anything considered detrimental for the communal interests of TC community would be just a symbolic democracy show. 8 VS 2 = TC loose

2- If TC community wishes comprehensive bi-lateral relations with Turkey as GC community has with Greece; it is obvious that vast majority of GC community would object. Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

3- If TC community objects to accept EOKA as a liberation fighters organization... Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

I can count many more but even just 3 highly probable to occure situations r sufficient to portray the future of TC community in a united RoC where majority rules.

Countries make Bi-lateral agreements with other countries and not individual states within a country. If that were to be allowed, the next thing you will do, is to give Turkey permission to keep 40,000 troops in the north state. That would be the same thing as having an "Open Marriage". Are you into open marriages, Insan.?

The most important protection for the TC's is to get all their protections into the constitution, where if such bad legistlation is introduced, that it will become unconstitutional, even if it was voted on.

The second protection for the TC's is to maintain 50% power in the upper house with veto power, all democratically, is to adopt my "BBF" plan.!

In a united Cyprus where the legislative and judicial power r distributed 50/50; any irrational and unconstitutional wishes/desires/demands of either communities would be doomed to fail.

I don't believe in any form of a united Cyprus would be viable if vast majority of GC community wouldn't genuinely respect the politically equal status of TC community. In a case where vast majority of GC community respect the politically equal status of TC community; there would be no irrational rivalry between 2 communities and no irrational demands such as asking 40.000 Turkish troops to be stationed in North.

So let alone an "open marriage", I don't want any type of reunification of 2 communities before I am persuaded that vast majority of GC community genuinely considers TC community as a politically equal state partner.

This thread is a very good opportunity to discuss what "majority rule" would case in a united RoC but it seems the thread ruined by going too much off topic.

Insan, majority rule is an integral part of a democratic state. Majority rule is a way to come to some decision.

It would be nice if we could all agree all the time, but that never happens. this is why we need systems that would allow a state to take some decision.

One system is monarchy, where one individual who does not necessarily have the popular support, takes all the decisions. He might take advices from others, but he is the one who decides in the end.

The way that democracy works, is that you have certain rules which are laid down by the constitution, international law, human rights, EU laws in the case of EU members like Cyprus, and a government which is elected by the majority of people takes the decisions within the limits of this framework. The government on most issues tries to keep most people satisfied, so they will have the chance to be elected again.

In the system you support there is no mechanism of taking decisions. You split Cyprus into two groups. When there is some disagreement, then everything brakes down since there is no way to take a decision.

Democracy might not be perfect, but it is the best system that exists, and it is tested in many other countries, including many other multi-ethnic countries.

So what if the current population ratio of GC/TC was 50/50; unification would be impossible because it would be impossible to take any decisions? U make galimatias Piratis. Total nonsense!

Why is that? People would vote and the majority would elect a government. That majority could be made of by 30% GCs and 30% TCs, or 45% GCs and 10% TCs, or 45% TCs and 10% GCs. So where do you see the impossible? Is just how democracy works.

Did you think that by "majority" I mean only GCs? In fact even with the current population ratio, with a real democracy it is very easy in democratic elections that somebody who is supported by a majority of TCs and a minority of GCs is elected.

Ur main argument is dividing Cypriot people into 2 ethnic groups and giving them equal representation on judicial and legislative bodies would cause racism and an unworkable state mechanism. Right? In case we had same number of population, this would be the result. So, in such a case what would happen in Cyprus? Never ending interest clashes between 2 rival communities?

What is racism is when you give to one citizen 5 times more voting power than other just because one is Muslim and speak Turkish and another is Christian and speaks Greek. In the above case, and in democracy in general, each citizen gets one vote, so there is no racism.

What causes unworkable mechanism is when you have two parties taking a decision. When they agree, great. When they don't then no decision can be taken and everything collapses. But in democracy, either the population is 50% GCs and 50% TCs, or 82% GCs and 18% TCs, all people vote together and elect one government and that one government takes the decisions. So everything works just like in every other normal country.

The reason such system was implemented was exactly because of what might have happened, which happened anyway.

GC's working together to cleanse the island from anyone that can be obstacles in their mission to rule the island in any means possible, regardless of the other minorities and hopefully attach our country to god damn Greece.

THATS why you could never be trusted and everyone was absolutely right all along.

What are you still going on about as if none of these had actually happened?

We cannot ever have real democracy here because we are not 1 people, no one can be 1 people with you people because you never want that in the first place.

So yes, most places can do just fine with democracy but that clearly doesn't work here does it?

My friend, the ones who came to our island and started to kill everyone who was an obstacle to their foreign rule is the Turks.

Here is from 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

What we want is to have freedom and democracy in our island, and yes this includes uniting with whomever we want, whenever we want, if we want, and we don't need to ask any former Empire about it. Colonial era is over.

Turks continue today to have their troops on our island in order to impose on Cyprus their will by force, and continue to deny to the Cypriot people democracy and their freedom.

[insan]

We hear so many objections about "Majority Rule" because the TCs fear they will not be heard, being only 18%, and so it is seen as a way for the GCs to rule over everyone.

But for most things passing through government legislature, I'll bet the TCs would vote exactly the same way as Mr and Mrs Average Yiannis GCopoulos.

For instance:

Should we spend more on the Health service? Yes or No
Should it be illegal to name a pig Napoleon? Yes or No
Should we improve our Roads? Yes or No
Should we cut Carbon emissions? Yes or No
Should people over 70 be forced to wear false teeth? Yes or No
Should we have heavier fines for animal cruelty? Yes or No
Should we strive to make Cyprus a Global Economy? Yes or No
Should we help the poor and underprivileged? Yes or No
Should we reduce the retirement age to 50? Yes or No

Well I don't know about you, but I voted Yes to 8 out of the 9.

I reckon most people would vote the same as me!

So what's wrong with Majority Rule?

When majority rules in Cyprus; highly probable to occure situations:

1- Objection of anything considered detrimental for the communal interests of TC community would be just a symbolic democracy show. 8 VS 2 = TC loose

2- If TC community wishes comprehensive bi-lateral relations with Turkey as GC community has with Greece; it is obvious that vast majority of GC community would object. Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

3- If TC community objects to accept EOKA as a liberation fighters organization... Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

I can count many more but even just 3 highly probable to occure situations r sufficient to portray the future of TC community in a united RoC where majority rules.

Countries make Bi-lateral agreements with other countries and not individual states within a country. If that were to be allowed, the next thing you will do, is to give Turkey permission to keep 40,000 troops in the north state. That would be the same thing as having an "Open Marriage". Are you into open marriages, Insan.?

The most important protection for the TC's is to get all their protections into the constitution, where if such bad legistlation is introduced, that it will become unconstitutional, even if it was voted on.

The second protection for the TC's is to maintain 50% power in the upper house with veto power, all democratically, is to adopt my "BBF" plan.!

In a united Cyprus where the legislative and judicial power r distributed 50/50; any irrational and unconstitutional wishes/desires/demands of either communities would be doomed to fail.

I don't believe in any form of a united Cyprus would be viable if vast majority of GC community wouldn't genuinely respect the politically equal status of TC community. In a case where vast majority of GC community respect the politically equal status of TC community; there would be no irrational rivalry between 2 communities and no irrational demands such as asking 40.000 Turkish troops to be stationed in North.

So let alone an "open marriage", I don't want any type of reunification of 2 communities before I am persuaded that vast majority of GC community genuinely considers TC community as a politically equal state partner.

This thread is a very good opportunity to discuss what "majority rule" would case in a united RoC but it seems the thread ruined by going too much off topic.

Insan, majority rule is an integral part of a democratic state. Majority rule is a way to come to some decision.

It would be nice if we could all agree all the time, but that never happens. this is why we need systems that would allow a state to take some decision.

One system is monarchy, where one individual who does not necessarily have the popular support, takes all the decisions. He might take advices from others, but he is the one who decides in the end.

The way that democracy works, is that you have certain rules which are laid down by the constitution, international law, human rights, EU laws in the case of EU members like Cyprus, and a government which is elected by the majority of people takes the decisions within the limits of this framework. The government on most issues tries to keep most people satisfied, so they will have the chance to be elected again.

In the system you support there is no mechanism of taking decisions. You split Cyprus into two groups. When there is some disagreement, then everything brakes down since there is no way to take a decision.

Democracy might not be perfect, but it is the best system that exists, and it is tested in many other countries, including many other multi-ethnic countries.

So what if the current population ratio of GC/TC was 50/50; unification would be impossible because it would be impossible to take any decisions? U make galimatias Piratis. Total nonsense!

Why is that? People would vote and the majority would elect a government. That majority could be made of by 30% GCs and 30% TCs, or 45% GCs and 10% TCs, or 45% TCs and 10% GCs. So where do you see the impossible? Is just how democracy works.

Did you think that by "majority" I mean only GCs? In fact even with the current population ratio, with a real democracy it is very easy in democratic elections that somebody who is supported by a majority of TCs and a minority of GCs is elected.

Ur main argument is dividing Cypriot people into 2 ethnic groups and giving them equal representation on judicial and legislative bodies would cause racism and an unworkable state mechanism. Right? In case we had same number of population, this would be the result. So, in such a case what would happen in Cyprus? Never ending interest clashes between 2 rival communities?

What is racism is when you give to one citizen 5 times more voting power than other just because one is Muslim and speak Turkish and another is Christian and speaks Greek. In the above case, and in democracy in general, each citizen gets one vote, so there is no racism.

What causes unworkable mechanism is when you have two parties taking a decision. When they agree, great. When they don't then no decision can be taken and everything collapses. But in democracy, either the population is 50% GCs and 50% TCs, or 82% GCs and 18% TCs, all people vote together and elect one government and that one government takes the decisions. So everything works just like in every other normal country.

The reason such system was implemented was exactly because of what might have happened, which happened anyway.

GC's working together to cleanse the island from anyone that can be obstacles in their mission to rule the island in any means possible, regardless of the other minorities and hopefully attach our country to god damn Greece.

THATS why you could never be trusted and everyone was absolutely right all along.

What are you still going on about as if none of these had actually happened?

We cannot ever have real democracy here because we are not 1 people, no one can be 1 people with you people because you never want that in the first place.

So yes, most places can do just fine with democracy but that clearly doesn't work here does it?

Here in Cyprus where 2 rival communities exist, only a consociational democracy could work. A consociational democracy which provides 50/50 representation for two communities on legislative and judicial bodies. Otherwise; it is tyranny of the outnumbered community over the community lesser in numbers; not a democracy.

[Piratis]

No one can really tell who started the murders but one thing is for sure and that is up until the moment Turkey stepped in everyone was living in shit holes waiting to die.

That was what you chose fit for your people, you were not fighting Turkey but your own people. Because of your racist culture and objective.

Turks didn't start this you did!

What I support does not matter as it is unachievable with ideas like you around, so there is a big difference with what you want and what you would want.

It is the Turks who invaded our island multiple times with the aim to enslave and oppress us. There would be no suffering for anybody if the Turks had not invaded Cyprus in the first place, and the suffering would at least stop if the Turks recognized the right of the Cypriot people for freedom, democracy and self-determination.

All the wars and conflicts in Cyprus between Cypriots and Turks were started by the Turks with the aim to enslave Cypriots and then stop us from being free.

[shahmaran]

Save your little quotes for some ignorant British tourist, I have read them a million times.

When Ottomans came they took the island from the Venetians and not the so called Greek Nation, you never had rights here, we gave them to you so you do not get to take ours from us.

So at least we agree that we can unite with whomever we want whenever we want, and no we do not need to ask some ancient settler group that lives on the island, why should we?

You want to deny us from our lands and our rights, why should we have to put up with it? This island does not belong to you.

If you have the right to fight so do we, whats the problem?

[Piratis]

We hear so many objections about "Majority Rule" because the TCs fear they will not be heard, being only 18%, and so it is seen as a way for the GCs to rule over everyone.

But for most things passing through government legislature, I'll bet the TCs would vote exactly the same way as Mr and Mrs Average Yiannis GCopoulos.

For instance:

Should we spend more on the Health service? Yes or No
Should it be illegal to name a pig Napoleon? Yes or No
Should we improve our Roads? Yes or No
Should we cut Carbon emissions? Yes or No
Should people over 70 be forced to wear false teeth? Yes or No
Should we have heavier fines for animal cruelty? Yes or No
Should we strive to make Cyprus a Global Economy? Yes or No
Should we help the poor and underprivileged? Yes or No
Should we reduce the retirement age to 50? Yes or No

Well I don't know about you, but I voted Yes to 8 out of the 9.

I reckon most people would vote the same as me!

So what's wrong with Majority Rule?

When majority rules in Cyprus; highly probable to occure situations:

1- Objection of anything considered detrimental for the communal interests of TC community would be just a symbolic democracy show. 8 VS 2 = TC loose

2- If TC community wishes comprehensive bi-lateral relations with Turkey as GC community has with Greece; it is obvious that vast majority of GC community would object. Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

3- If TC community objects to accept EOKA as a liberation fighters organization... Result: 8 VS 2 = TC loose

I can count many more but even just 3 highly probable to occure situations r sufficient to portray the future of TC community in a united RoC where majority rules.

Countries make Bi-lateral agreements with other countries and not individual states within a country. If that were to be allowed, the next thing you will do, is to give Turkey permission to keep 40,000 troops in the north state. That would be the same thing as having an "Open Marriage". Are you into open marriages, Insan.?

The most important protection for the TC's is to get all their protections into the constitution, where if such bad legistlation is introduced, that it will become unconstitutional, even if it was voted on.

The second protection for the TC's is to maintain 50% power in the upper house with veto power, all democratically, is to adopt my "BBF" plan.!

In a united Cyprus where the legislative and judicial power r distributed 50/50; any irrational and unconstitutional wishes/desires/demands of either communities would be doomed to fail.

I don't believe in any form of a united Cyprus would be viable if vast majority of GC community wouldn't genuinely respect the politically equal status of TC community. In a case where vast majority of GC community respect the politically equal status of TC community; there would be no irrational rivalry between 2 communities and no irrational demands such as asking 40.000 Turkish troops to be stationed in North.

So let alone an "open marriage", I don't want any type of reunification of 2 communities before I am persuaded that vast majority of GC community genuinely considers TC community as a politically equal state partner.

This thread is a very good opportunity to discuss what "majority rule" would case in a united RoC but it seems the thread ruined by going too much off topic.

Insan, majority rule is an integral part of a democratic state. Majority rule is a way to come to some decision.

It would be nice if we could all agree all the time, but that never happens. this is why we need systems that would allow a state to take some decision.

One system is monarchy, where one individual who does not necessarily have the popular support, takes all the decisions. He might take advices from others, but he is the one who decides in the end.

The way that democracy works, is that you have certain rules which are laid down by the constitution, international law, human rights, EU laws in the case of EU members like Cyprus, and a government which is elected by the majority of people takes the decisions within the limits of this framework. The government on most issues tries to keep most people satisfied, so they will have the chance to be elected again.

In the system you support there is no mechanism of taking decisions. You split Cyprus into two groups. When there is some disagreement, then everything brakes down since there is no way to take a decision.

Democracy might not be perfect, but it is the best system that exists, and it is tested in many other countries, including many other multi-ethnic countries.

So what if the current population ratio of GC/TC was 50/50; unification would be impossible because it would be impossible to take any decisions? U make galimatias Piratis. Total nonsense!

Why is that? People would vote and the majority would elect a government. That majority could be made of by 30% GCs and 30% TCs, or 45% GCs and 10% TCs, or 45% TCs and 10% GCs. So where do you see the impossible? Is just how democracy works.

Did you think that by "majority" I mean only GCs? In fact even with the current population ratio, with a real democracy it is very easy in democratic elections that somebody who is supported by a majority of TCs and a minority of GCs is elected.

Ur main argument is dividing Cypriot people into 2 ethnic groups and giving them equal representation on judicial and legislative bodies would cause racism and an unworkable state mechanism. Right? In case we had same number of population, this would be the result. So, in such a case what would happen in Cyprus? Never ending interest clashes between 2 rival communities?

What is racism is when you give to one citizen 5 times more voting power than other just because one is Muslim and speak Turkish and another is Christian and speaks Greek. In the above case, and in democracy in general, each citizen gets one vote, so there is no racism.

What causes unworkable mechanism is when you have two parties taking a decision. When they agree, great. When they don't then no decision can be taken and everything collapses. But in democracy, either the population is 50% GCs and 50% TCs, or 82% GCs and 18% TCs, all people vote together and elect one government and that one government takes the decisions. So everything works just like in every other normal country.

The reason such system was implemented was exactly because of what might have happened, which happened anyway.

GC's working together to cleanse the island from anyone that can be obstacles in their mission to rule the island in any means possible, regardless of the other minorities and hopefully attach our country to god damn Greece.

THATS why you could never be trusted and everyone was absolutely right all along.

What are you still going on about as if none of these had actually happened?

We cannot ever have real democracy here because we are not 1 people, no one can be 1 people with you people because you never want that in the first place.

So yes, most places can do just fine with democracy but that clearly doesn't work here does it?

Here in Cyprus where 2 rival communities exist, only a consociational democracy could work. A consociational democracy which provides 50/50 representation for two communities on legislative and judicial bodies. Otherwise; it is tyranny of the outnumbered community over the community lesser in numbers; not a democracy.

The tyranny is imposed by the Turks over the native Cypriot people. If you didn't want to be a minority in Cyprus then you shouldn't have invaded us, simple!

If you want some other system go apply it to Turkey with the Greek and Kurdish minorities and stop trying to impose undemocratic system on us.

[shahmaran]

No one can really tell who started the murders but one thing is for sure and that is up until the moment Turkey stepped in everyone was living in shit holes waiting to die.

That was what you chose fit for your people, you were not fighting Turkey but your own people. Because of your racist culture and objective.

Turks didn't start this you did!

What I support does not matter as it is unachievable with ideas like you around, so there is a big difference with what you want and what you would want.

It is the Turks who invaded our island multiple times with the aim to enslave and oppress us. There would be no suffering for anybody if the Turks had not invaded Cyprus in the first place, and the suffering would at least stop if the Turks recognized the right of the Cypriot people for freedom, democracy and self-determination.

All the wars and conflicts in Cyprus between Cypriots and Turks were started by the Turks with the aim to enslave Cypriots and then stop us from being free.

Actually history shows that you were already suffering pretty badly for many centuries when the Ottomans came.

The Ottomans gave you your first right to self-rule, your first right to practice your own religion not someone else's and your first right to own anything on the island.

Your facts are straight out rubbish.

[shahmaran]

The tyranny is imposed by the Turks over the native Cypriot people. If you didn't want to be a minority in Cyprus then you shouldn't have invaded us, simple!

If you want some other system go apply it to Turkey with the Greek and Kurdish minorities and stop trying to impose undemocratic system on us.

We have not imposed anything on you, you are obviously free to do whatever you want, other than denying us our rights and our lands and what democratic rights we had in the past.

Do you see Turkey telling you what to do? I don't.

[Piratis]

Save your little quotes for some ignorant British tourist, I have read them a million times.

When Ottomans came they took the island from the Venetians and not the so called Greek Nation, you never had rights here, we gave them to you so you do not get to take ours from us.

So at least we agree that we can unite with whomever we want whenever we want, and no we do not need to ask some ancient settler group that lives on the island, why should we?

You want to deny us from our lands and our rights, why should we have to put up with it? This island does not belong to you.

If you have the right to fight so do we, whats the problem?

Cyprus belongs to its native people not to any former empires. It is clear that you still dream of the times that the Turks would invade, kill and steal what others have created.

It is a pity that you continue doing the same things in the 20th and 21st century, thinking that we are still living in the Ottoman era.

So you continue to fight to take our island from us, and we will continue to fight to protect our island from the invading Turks. This is a story that started in 1571, and we will wait and see when it will finish.