Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

So the only way to free our island is to kill you?

No. A genuine love based on political equality of 2 communites would be sufficient to free us all.

[shahmaran]

So the only way to free our island is to kill you?

You can give us all a bj Sotos, and we might think about it

That's my understanding of a love based equality

[Sotos]

So the only way to free our island is to kill you?

You can give us all a bj Sotos, and we might think about it

That's my understanding of a love based equality

You are confusing me with Bananiot. It is him who wants to give you bj and with him that you share the same understanding of love based equality. What I want is freedom to my island from the Turkish invaders. So why don't you answer to me if we will have to kill you to get our freedom? Isn't this what you meant before when you said "If people die for lands then you will have to die for them too, no one is going to give it to you just because you "ask" for it or live there"

[Bananiot]

Piratis, you will never understand that given that a solution is not found, either because of Turkey's intransigence or as a result of our intransigent, the situation will not remain as it is. Time will solve the problem for all of us and guess who will be dealt a really bad deal.

[shahmaran]

So the only way to free our island is to kill you?

You can give us all a bj Sotos, and we might think about it

That's my understanding of a love based equality

You are confusing me with Bananiot. It is him who wants to give you bj and with him that you share the same understanding of love based equality. What I want is freedom to my island from the Turkish invaders. So why don't you answer to me if we will have to kill you to get our freedom? Isn't this what you meant before when you said "If people die for lands then you will have to die for them too, no one is going to give it to you just because you "ask" for it or live there"

That's right Sotos.

This is our homeland.

So if you want me out of here, you are dam right that you will have to kill me first.

Wouldn't you fight for your home?

But you tried that one already no?

How did that go?

[Sotos]

Piratis, you will never understand that given that a solution is not found, either because of Turkey's intransigence or as a result of our intransigent, the situation will not remain as it is. Time will solve the problem for all of us and guess who will be dealt a really bad deal.

Time didn't make Athens Turkish after 400 years of Turkish rule. What made Constantinople Turkish was that some idiot Greeks like you made some agreement with the Turks and gave it to them. So it is not time that make things Turkish but the bad agreements. No more bad agreements. Cyprus is ours and we will give nothing of it to anybody.

[Sotos]

So the only way to free our island is to kill you?

You can give us all a bj Sotos, and we might think about it

That's my understanding of a love based equality

You are confusing me with Bananiot. It is him who wants to give you bj and with him that you share the same understanding of love based equality. What I want is freedom to my island from the Turkish invaders. So why don't you answer to me if we will have to kill you to get our freedom? Isn't this what you meant before when you said "If people die for lands then you will have to die for them too, no one is going to give it to you just because you "ask" for it or live there"

That's right Sotos.

This is our homeland.

So if you want me out of here, you are dam right that you will have to kill me first.

Wouldn't you fight for your home?

But you tried that one already no?

How did that go?

It is my home you occupy you foreign invader. It is my home I will fight for. You can say you rule Cyprus but Cyprus is not your homeland. It is our homeland. You are a foreign ruler and you will become history like all the other foreign rulers of our island.

[Bananiot]

Kikapu, you have asked me these questions many times but somehow you keep asking them. When I posted the reasons why I voted for the Annan Plan, right after the referendum, I made it clear, and several times since, that elements of confederacy were found in the Plan. However, I stressed that our options are limited and emphasised that there are no fair solutions but options, in real life.

I still believe that our options are very limited and I would be just fooling myself and every body else if I adopted the super patriotic stance that calls for all refugees to return to their homes and the Turkish army to miraculously pack up and go to Turkey. Same is true with the settlers. This can happen only if we beat Turkey in a war.

Now, the current round of talks. The two sides are at the stage where positions are recorded and discussed. The important business will take place later on and I think we need to wait till then to see how far back each side will fall on. I am hoping that both sides will play the give and take game because this is the only way to go about it in order to arrive at an agreed solution. Many factors will be taken into consideration then, including Turkey's EU aspirations, possibly the current economic crisis may play a big part this time round, the result in the elections in the north etc. This is where the talks and possibly the future of Cyprus will be decided my friend. Every thing else we read by certain forumers is just pure cacophony which does not address the issue in a constructive way.

Remember, it is all about options. Morals, fairness, justice are just fancy words I am afraid, but a people like ours, who has suffered so much in the near past, should be able to be more practical by now. We are running very short of time and we owe it to our island to cut the populist rhetoric that sounds sweet to our ears but not only it does not solve our problem but makes it much worse.

I hope you make an effort to understand what I am saying Kikapu for I thought that you of all people understood clearly that I have no political axe to grind, nor a racial one or indeed a revanchist one. I simply believe that we are close to losing everything and we need to do something about it that can really end and reverse the current path to calamity.

[YFred]

The most crucial chapters that are discussed at the talks, as most people know, are governance and property. The rest have been or can easily be agreed upon. YFred said something interesting, that is, when you see the far right worry, something good may be brewing.

The governance issue is debated about the effective participation of the two communities in the central state. The UN resolution seems to be understood differently by the two sides. Of course I completely ignore the far right cry for a unitary state and moving away from the bbf proposal. Talat wants equal representation in all bodies of the central state whereas Christofias seems to want participation which will not be detrimental to decision making. Remember, the UN said, effective participation. How does one translate "effective participation"? In my opinion, equal participation will give the sense of justice to the Turkish Cypriots and we stand to lose nothing by accepting this. It will be a huge step towards enhancing the reconciliation process.

The property issue sees our side wanting to safeguard the right of all refugees to return to their properties while the Turkish Cypriot side has opted for an exchange and compensation policy in order to make sure that there will be a Turkish Cypriot majority in the Turkish Cypriot state. Another issue that seems to be of concern to the TC side is the % of Turkish Cypriot owned land within the TC state.

This is how things stand at the moment. Those of us that seek solution wholeheartedly as the only way to safeguard the existence of our island, can compromise in a spirit of good will for the benefit of our common country. Christofias has been pressed very hard by the deep state in the Greek Cypriot side (oh yes, it exists since day one of the RoC) and he even finds it difficult to reform a stale, anachronistic education system, which has seen our education records plummet to record lows while producing, xenophobic children who are racist and spoilt brats. If Christofias finds the strength to stand up to the reactionaries, you will be surprised how many people will stand by his side.

As I said we should accept the idea that the Turkish Cypriots will participate on an equal basis in all decision making bodies of the Central state. Also, by definition, it is not possible for one community to have a majority of either population or land ownership in both states. The legal owner of every property should have the final say of course and any exchanges or compensations need to be very welcome by all concerned, at the end of the day.

If we cannot agree on the above, partition is the only way left and this will prove detrimental to both Greek and Turkish Cypriots. Thus, eventually what it boils down in the end is what we want, partition or bbf. All other options do not exist and it is a waste of time even arguing about them even as an exercise on paper.

Bananiot,

The first question I need to ask you is, from what you read of this "secret" document on page one, do you agree with the terms Talat insisting on.?

Second question is, do you not see Talat's proposals as a Confederation and not a Federation.?

Third question is, after all you read about the AP, don't you think this is what AP looks like once the disguised partition veil has been removed.?

You tell us that you are against Partition and Confederation, but at the same time, you want the solution based on what's in this "secret" document, or did I get this wrong and that you do not want these proposals made by Talat, because you are against Partition and Confederation.? Can you please clarify your position.!

Let me tell you all what these proposal by Talat are to me. YES, they are Confederation based proposals and YES, they are Partition based proposals and I do not see anything close to resembling a Unified Cyprus, the country or the people. It is actually far worse than any Confederation can be, just as the AP was. Therefore, these proposals are the naked truth of what the AP was about, and Talat has no choice but to spell them out in details, because the AP cannot be used as the basis of these talks in it's original format with it's disguised partition veil on. Once the AP has been stripped down to it's "Birthday Suit", you get to see it very clearly what it was all about. So my friend Bananiot, this is what you actually voted for when you voted for the 2004 AP, even though you may have thought you were voting for something different that was going to bring long lasting peace to Cyprus. So let me ask you again. Knowing what you know now, would you still vote for the 2004 AP, and if so, then you have no choice but to agree with what Talat is proposing in this "secret" document.

In closing this posting, let me put what Talat's proposal really means in a laymen’s terms. It is an "Open Marriage" proposal. It means that either one of the married couple can have whom ever they want for sex, with or without any protections, when they want it ,how, and where. They can invite to the house whom ever they want and let them stay there and do as they wish as long as they want, whether the other partner likes it or not, because there is nothing the other partner can do about it, because they both agreed on their "Open Marriage" agreement. So let me ask all those members who support Talat's proposals, and that is, are you all willing to have an open marriage relationship which your partners and spouses in the same way as I described above, that you will let you spouse go off with another person to have sex with as they seem fit and you can do the same of course, but you cannot stop your partner from doing what they want with whom they want, even if you are not willing to do it yourself, but from here on, you cannot stop your partner.? So let me see those hands who are up to Talat’s proposals and are equally up to Open Marriages and Open Relationships of their own.!

Kicks,
Let me reassure you that there is nothing wrong with my Eye-sight. When I did my customary stint at Gulseren, In practice I fired 14 shots. 10 hit the centre.

You have a problem. Its called a closed mind.

Let us take your argument about marriage. Since when have we been able to control what our partners do? A successful marriage depends on love, loyalty, trust, respect consideration and sex in that order. A partner can choose what to do when ever they wish. Only place where this is illegal is in Saudi, Iran and Afghanistan, as far as I am aware. So what keeps a partner from doing what you suggested? The disapproval of the other partner. She knows that if she does, than its over. These choices we always have to make.

Now, lets take it away from a marriage and apply it to a company. If a company merges with another, they will trade with each other. So what happens when one company finds another cost effective supplier. Then what? Would they be loyal or would they opt for a more cost effective company. That’s a rhetorical question.

No that’s apply it to Cyprus. The peace has been agreed as you suggested. Who would the TC’s trade with more cost effectively. GCs or Turks. Considering that TCs produce cheaper than GCs and Turks can produce cheaper than TCs on account of economies of scale, and TC labour is cheaper than GC labour, who would the TCs prefer to trade with. Again rhetorical questions. Good relationship is achievable and does not need anything to hold it together. It holds itself.

When it comes to foreigners. If there is peace, TCs will be in the EU. Turks sooner or later will follow. Now, are we to close our borders to everybody. Immigration will continue like everywhere else. Perfectly normal. If it wasn’t for immigration I wouldn’t be able to have the life I had for the last 35 years in London, and I am grateful to my English friends here and in the TC lands. Your attitude to migrants are bordering on Xenophobia, and so does most of the right wing Greeks you tend to side with, which is worrying because I thought you were a reasonable man.
You keep going on about stolen lands. I have no doubt that most people will get their rights. We cannot satisfy everybody. But for the sake of our children’s future we have to move on.

[Piratis]

Remember, it is all about options. Morals, fairness, justice are just fancy words I am afraid, but a people like ours, who has suffered so much in the near past, should be able to be more practical by now. We are running very short of time and we owe it to our island to cut the populist rhetoric that sounds sweet to our ears but not only it does not solve our problem but makes it much worse.

Yes, Bananiot, it is about options.

Option 1) Annan plan and similar.

Pros:

Maybe the Turks will give back about 7% of land. The Turks today violate UN resolution and force their occupation over Cyprus. The UN resolution which demands their withdrawal from Cyprus will be replaced with some agreement. Violating some agreement will be much easier in comparison. But lets say they give that 7% of land back, and a part of refugees return to their homes.

Thats it. That is the only positive.

Cons:

29%+ of Cyprus becomes officially Turkish. Partition becomes legal.

No Democracy.

Human Rights violations are legalized

The Turks get to control the whole of Cyprus. We loose the control of our own country. The whole Cyprus becomes hostage of Turkey.

The TCs use the EU and our money to develop what will by then be their own separate confederate country, and use the land stolen from us to compete with us.


Option 2) Insist on what is right and just

Cons:

No agreement with he Turks (since they will accept nothing except partition) and no refugees return now or any time soon.

Pros:

The whole of Cyprus remains part of Republic of Cyprus. This means it will be possible to take back our land under a different balance of power in the future.

The one and only recognized state in Cyprus continues to be democratic and to represent the Cypriot people and their interests.

The illegal pseudo state remains an illegal pseudo state. Those that support the illegal pseudo state suffer the consequences of their illegalities. Turkey does not enter the EU and loses the chance for prosperity.

So which of the two options is better?

Maybe part of the refugees, those who would maybe return to that 7% of land which maybe will be returned, will have 1 valid reason to accept option 1, and many reasons to reject it. For the rest people it is obvious that option 2 is the only option.