Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Kikapu,
Enonussu

jexekollise

Esi inda bu na kamis yemu.
Na bais, ge na hovlagis ena tencere kurufasulya
ge na da fais, ge na glapsis san don yeroklizmon.

U banaiyamu re! Gavvole mavre, ela re gatse; gumbare. Endaxi, evharisto bolla.

It is obvios that we need a few new sections on CF forums. "Learning Greek" and "Learning Trkish".

I think yeroklizmo means earthquake, but I am not sure.
There is a third language involved called Lurucadi.

[Bananiot]

Kleismos means damnation. Gerokleismos I never hard. Possibly it means big damnation.

[Paphitis]

Remember, it is all about options. Morals, fairness, justice are just fancy words I am afraid, but a people like ours, who has suffered so much in the near past, should be able to be more practical by now. We are running very short of time and we owe it to our island to cut the populist rhetoric that sounds sweet to our ears but not only it does not solve our problem but makes it much worse.

Yes, Bananiot, it is about options.

Option 1) Annan plan and similar.

Pros:

Maybe the Turks will give back about 7% of land. The Turks today violate UN resolution and force their occupation over Cyprus. The UN resolution which demands their withdrawal from Cyprus will be replaced with some agreement. Violating some agreement will be much easier in comparison. But lets say they give that 7% of land back, and a part of refugees return to their homes.

Thats it. That is the only positive.

Cons:

29%+ of Cyprus becomes officially Turkish. Partition becomes legal.

No Democracy.

Human Rights violations are legalized

The Turks get to control the whole of Cyprus. We loose the control of our own country. The whole Cyprus becomes hostage of Turkey.

The TCs use the EU and our money to develop what will by then be their own separate confederate country, and use the land stolen from us to compete with us.


Option 2) Insist on what is right and just

Cons:

No agreement with he Turks (since they will accept nothing except partition) and no refugees return now or any time soon.

Pros:

The whole of Cyprus remains part of Republic of Cyprus. This means it will be possible to take back our land under a different balance of power in the future.

The one and only recognized state in Cyprus continues to be democratic and to represent the Cypriot people and their interests.

The illegal pseudo state remains an illegal pseudo state. Those that support the illegal pseudo state suffer the consequences of their illegalities. Turkey does not enter the EU and loses the chance for prosperity.

So which of the two options is better?

Maybe part of the refugees, those who would maybe return to that 7% of land which maybe will be returned, will have 1 valid reason to accept option 1, and many reasons to reject it. For the rest people it is obvious that option 2 is the only option.

The way I see it is that the present Cypriots have NO other option but insist on option 2 - what is right and just. Anything else will is a betrayal to future generations.

[YFred]

Kleismos means damnation. Gerokleismos I never hard. Possibly it means big damnation.

Thanks for that.
Now I remember.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, you have asked me these questions many times but somehow you keep asking them. When I posted the reasons why I voted for the Annan Plan, right after the referendum, I made it clear, and several times since, that elements of confederacy were found in the Plan. However, I stressed that our options are limited and emphasised that there are no fair solutions but options, in real life.

Why is it Bananiot, that Talat is not choosing True Federation as an option where we can have a US style of strong central Federal Government that protects everyone's Democratic, Constitutional and Human Rights over what each individual states may want to do on their own, as if they are independent country where the central government has no say so what they do. How can anyone be expected to agree to such an proposal where certain institutionalised bad behaviours by one state can harm it's own people when there isn't a greater body to make sure such violations does not take place like a strong central government, because there isn't very much trust between the communities to have a weak central government. Since Talat is proposing these ridiculous terms, they can only harm the TC’s and they will have no where to turn to protect their rights. Talat wants the same conditions as they have in the north, where murderers are and crooks are protected and given "TC citizenships" instead of made to face justice. Talat chooses the worse possible option for Cyprus, and not because it is bad for the GC's, or that it is good for the TC's, because it is not, but only what is good for Turkey. This is why Talat is not the right person to negotiate with, because he is doing what Turkey tells him to do. The best body for Christofias to negotiate with, is Ankara, and the options that should be on the table that will not be negotiated are True Democracy and True Federation within the UN and EU perimeters. Anything else, will be worse than what we have today.

I still believe that our options are very limited and I would be just fooling myself and every body else if I adopted the super patriotic stance that calls for all refugees to return to their homes and the Turkish army to miraculously pack up and go to Turkey. Same is true with the settlers. This can happen only if we beat Turkey in a war.

As you say Bananiot, there are only options, but why choose an option which is bad from the beginning. If Turkey only allows certain options for Cypriots, then she will also know that her options are also limited in making it into the EU. The options game cuts both ways. It's not about adopting super patriotic stand to demand Democracy and Human Rights for all Cypriots. One should not need to beg for these rights from Turkey. This is actually a mute point Bananiot, because the EU will not have undemocratic and Human Rights violation on Cypriots as a formula to have "peace" the way Turkey may want. The moment the EU accepts such violations, then the EU would have lost all moral values it's institution is based on, in which case, the EU might as well accept Turkey as a member with all it's imperfections as of tomorrow with it's Democratic and Human Rights violations on it's own people. Then we can invite all the other Middle eastern countries into the club with all their imperfections they submit their citizens to go through. Where do you want to draw the line with all these Human Rights violations.? If we allow these violations in a EU country of Cyprus, how can we citizen other countries.

Now, the current round of talks. The two sides are at the stage where positions are recorded and discussed. The important business will take place later on and I think we need to wait till then to see how far back each side will fall on. I am hoping that both sides will play the give and take game because this is the only way to go about it in order to arrive at an agreed solution. Many factors will be taken into consideration then, including Turkey's EU aspirations, possibly the current economic crisis may play a big part this time round, the result in the elections in the north etc. This is where the talks and possibly the future of Cyprus will be decided my friend. Every thing else we read by certain forumers is just pure cacophony which does not address the issue in a constructive way.

Totally agree with you, with the above.!

Remember, it is all about options. Morals, fairness, justice are just fancy words I am afraid, but a people like ours, who has suffered so much in the near past, should be able to be more practical by now. We are running very short of time and we owe it to our island to cut the populist rhetoric that sounds sweet to our ears but not only it does not solve our problem but makes it much worse.

There are certain options that I can live with Bananiot to make Cyprus as a liveable country for everyone, but if the interests of another country is the driving force behind one of the two sides, then those options will need to be eliminated and only focus on options that are in the interest of the two sides instead. With the present proposals as is in the "secret" proposals, Talat is totally not making proposals that are in the best interest of the TC's, but Turkey. The present situation as they are now in the north are already bad for the TC's, so why does he want to make their future under the control of Turkey and not jointly under the Cypriots. Talat cannot be trusted if he sticks to these proposals. He is already choosing "partition" of the communities as an option, so why should I give him anything to make that into a reality with an agreement in the name of "peace".

I hope you make an effort to understand what I am saying Kikapu for I thought that you of all people understood clearly that I have no political axe to grind, nor a racial one or indeed a revanchist one. I simply believe that we are close to losing everything and we need to do something about it that can really end and reverse the current path to calamity.

Bananiot, I see you as an honourable and very peaceful Cypriot, but at the same time, I cannot understand how you can accept certain options that are likely to cause problems down the road, because once again, having policies as the 1959 Zurich agreements or the 2004 AP proposals, would have lead us back to the 1963 days sometime in the future. I have already had my share of being taken as a prisoner at the barrel of a GC gun, and we can blame different groups all we want by saying that it was all their fault and no matter how just and Democratic the 1960 constitution was, the same would have happened as in 1963. Maybe, then again, maybe not. When people feel they have been cheated and been wronged, they will respond, specially those who had benefited from your losses, are your next door neighbours. People react very angrily when their own family members take advantage of them let alone strangers and neighbours. It is hard enough when everyone is treated equally to please everyone, but definitely very much harder for people to get along, when they have been wronged from day one. We must not choose any option for the sake of claiming we are limited in what our options are, and choose an option that will only make matters worse in the future. If the choice is a bad option or no option at all, then no option is better than a bad option until the time comes when a better option can be found. Time does not stand still my friend, therefore another time will bring another circumstances that may be more favourable to better solution. If a bad solution is accepted today, then one has to live with it, unless they get killed first in the next conflict that is, because they chosen the bad option which will invite trouble in the future for the sake of accepting an option today, no matter what their conditions were.!

By the way, since you did not raise your hand on whether you approve Open Marriages or Open Relationships in general, then I take it that you do not approve Talat's present proposals.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu you think you should negotiate with Turkey and not President Talat because he is their mouth piece, then what will chnage? do you think you will get more for the GCs??

[Viewpoint]

Deleted

[Sotos]

Kikapu you think you should negotiate with Turkey and not President Talat because he is their mouth piece, then what will chnage? do you think you will get more for the GCs??

Talat is just the leader of some small community. The President of EU member Cyprus wasted too much time talking to this useless muppet. If Turkey is serious about solution then they should have direct negotiations with us or else stop wasting our time with their muppets!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu you think you should negotiate with Turkey and not President Talat because he is their mouth piece, then what will chnage? do you think you will get more for the GCs??

Talat is just the leader of some small community. The President of EU member Cyprus wasted too much time talking to this useless muppet. If Turkey is serious about solution then they should have direct negotiations with us or else stop wasting our time with their muppets!

They do not recognize you, even if they accepted what more do you think you will get that President Talat is not offering??

[boulio]

they should start to recognize cyprus because at the end of 2009 they will be quite acquainted.