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Turkey Torturing and Executing Civilians ... Again!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oracle » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:30 pm

insan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
insan wrote:Palio, i fed up telling u that Turks and Kurds fought together against the enemies for a common cause to establish a common homeland for themselves.


Insan you proudly and repeatedly remind us that the Kurds once helped Turkey to found the RoT.

And how were they rewarded for this friendship?

Oracle wrote:After the Kurds helped the Turks win the war (1919-1922), the Turks rounded up and hanged the Kurdish leaders. Then they suppressed the uprisings. Banned the language, newspapers, schools, etc. Banned the Kurdish festivals and celebrations, etc. Declared the Kurds "Mountain Turks", hoping this lie would stick and cover the crime in the fullness of time. The Constitution of the new republic made clear that "Turkey, the land of the Turks cannot be divided". And so the Kurds were cheated of what they had been promised.


What had the Kurds been promised that Turkey reneged and back-stabbed them about?

What is it that they still do not have, which is rightfully theirs!

Keep reminding the world of the friendship shown by the Kurds to the Turks, and how Turkey back-stabbed them with one of the most blatant lies of history!


Come with credible sources abt the so-called incident of 1919 and onwards. Then we might discuss abt it.


Here's a simple summary ... you can search for any details you doubt:

After World War I, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson called for the non-Turkish nationalities of the Ottoman Empire to be "assured of an absolute unmolested opportunity of autonomous development." In fact, the 1920 Treaty of Sevres provided for an autonomous Kurdistan. But that egg didn't hatch. A new Turkish government got a better deal in the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, which made no mention of Kurdistan or the Kurds. Britain and France got territories throughout the Mideast, and the Kurds got the shaft.

Turkey made a point of ensuring complete control over the land it still held. This meant hard times for Turkish Kurds, and they revolted several times, all unsuccessfully. The Turkish government, for its part, outlawed the Kurdish language, forcibly moved Kurds to urban regions within Turkey, and even denied that Kurds exist (referring to them as "Mountain Turks").


http://www.knowledgenews.net/moxie/toda ... urds.shtml
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Postby Kikapu » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:11 am

insan wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Insan,

Since you defend Turkey at every which way and turn, can you tell us, if you can or willing to, has Turkey ever done anything wrong since becoming a Republic in 1923, and if so, could you please list them and if not, just say "none".?


I have never denied the human rights violations in Turkey. The human rights violations in Turkey is not particularly towards Kurds. I've always emphasized that Turkey hasn't been a fully democratized country, yet. Turkey has too many problems because of it's historical background and where she is located.


Is there anything in the article below that you disagree with, Insan.?

I have provided the authors' website below, if you need more information on him.!
http://hankhyena.net/



Turkey Killings
Turks and Kurds pose food for thought
by Hank Hyena Published November 24, 1999 in Scope

Turkey is brutally stomping towards the 21st century as arguably the world's most xenophobic, genocidal, and unrepentant nation of the 1900s. Other contenders (Germany, Japan, Russia, Iraq, Serbia, Rwanda, Indonesia, South Africa, China, USA, UK, France, Guatemala, Israel, etc.) have either reformed their atrocious behavior, or their crimes pale in comparison. Turks alone can ignominiously boast of a consistent 85 years of horror perpetrated upon anyone they're strong enough to beat up.

Armenians were their first bloody victims; 1.5 million members of this prosperous minority were slaughtered by the then-Ottoman Empire from 1915-1923. In the aftermath, Turks have contemptuously refused to even acknowledge the history of this heinous event. Greeks were also "ethnically-cleansed" from the Turkish fold -- 1 million Hellenes were forcibly deported in 1923. Turkey's barbarically-titled "Attila Operation," which began in 1974 with a fit of naked aggression -- the invasion of Cyprus -- continued the trans-Aegean belligerence.

Today, the Kurds are the Turk's predominant prey. This sizable but impoverished minority has been kicked about by the Turkish boot ever since 1923's Treaty of Lausanne reneged on a promise to establish a Kurdish homeland (Kurdistan) for the mountainous region's 35 million inhabitants. Kurds are now the largest stateless nationality on the planet, existing as outsiders in Armenia, Syria, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. Strife characterizes life in Iraq, but even Kurds ruled by the Butcher of Baghdad enjoy freedoms unimaginable to the 20 million chained to the Turkish yoke.

Turkey's government is a bullying Big Brother, ruled by the racist dogma of Mustafa Kemal (Atat�rk), the progenitor of post-Ottoman nationalism. Diversity is savagely squashed. For example, all schools have signs that proclaim: "Happy is the man who can say: I am a Turk!" School oaths commence with, "I am a Turk, decent and industrious," and end with, "My life is dedicated to Turkishness." Lineage is praised as noble if it's Turkish; other bloodlines are deemed degenerate. The Constitution itself ominously declares: "No opinion ... that contradicts the history of Turkishness and its moral values ... may be advocated. Nor may such opinions enjoy any protection."

The cucumber-shaped nation is obviously a dangerous place for non-Turks, and the Kurds are brazenly different. The ancient, traditionally- nomadic people speak an Indo-European language similar to Persian, while the Turkish tongue -- transplanted from northeastern regions -- is Ural-Altaic. Kurds are overwhelmingly Sunni Moslems, whereas Turks are Shiite, or secular. Customs and holidays also deviate.

Paranoid of separatism, the militaristic Turkish administration bunkered in Ankara has persecuted its one-third Kurdish minority population for 77 years with a savage cornucopia of human rights violations. Kurdish historical monuments have been vandalized, towns and geographic features renamed with Turkish appellations, and Kurdish personal names deemed taboo: Parents must select from an approved list of Turkish monikers.

The Kurdish language is forbidden in schools, on television, and in radio broadcasts; celebrating Kurdish holidays is a crime. Even the terms "Kurd," "Kurdish," and "Kurdistan" were outlawed until 1991 -- the orphaned people were defined optimistically as "Mountain Turks." The rude overlords even appropriated the downtrodden clan's sweetest charm: Kurdish delicacies have been retitled "Turkish pastry."

Anyone who disobeys an Ankara decree invites filthy incarceration upon his or her flesh (ever heard of a Turkish prison?), plus the refined science of Turkish torture. Inflicting pain is practically an art form here -- the cookbook of cruelty includes cigarette burns, beating the feet and the genitals, electric shock, high pressure cold water spray-cannons, sleep deprivation, hanging by the arms, submersion in cold water, starvation, oxygen deprivation, and anal rape with truncheons and gun barrels. No age group is off limits -- a two-year-old was kicked and burned by Turkish police in 1996, to obtain a confession from his mother.

Unbowed by this sadism, the stubborn Kurds have maintained a heroic quest for autonomy that exhibits no sign of abatement. Kurd resistance is historically divergent in philosophy, but the dominant force since 1984 has been the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a Marxist-Leninist cadre. The charismatic Abdullah �calan, a.k.a. "Apo," a peasant's son born with exceptional organizational and oratorical skills, spearheads the PKK.

Led by �calan, the PKK has tormented the Turkish military, killing 5,555 soldiers. However, the PKK are no paragons of humanitarianism themselves -- their terrorist activities include the murder of Turkish teachers, officials, and journalists, the annihilation of "bourgeoisie" Kurd collaborators, and the utilization of young girls as "human bombs" to blow up enemy targets. Still, the Kurdish casualties are far greater: Approximately 30,000 PKK members and sympathizers have been obliterated in the last 15 years. Turkish bulldozers have razed 3,432 Kurd villages, forests have been burned, women have been raped, 560,000 Kurds have been deported to western Turkish cities where they subsist in impoverished slums (many of which collapsed in recent earthquakes), and 11,000 Kurdish political prisoners languish in jails.

Last February, the PKK was dealt a paralyzing punch when Turkish commandos in Nairobi, Kenya, nabbed �calan outside the traitorous Greek embassy. After mocking their fearful captive on TV (a sweaty �calan begged "please don't torture me" while they laughed) the Turks isolated him in a tightly secured prison on Imrali Island. Was he tortured?

"My personal hunch is that he was," says Kani Xulam, director of the American Kurdish Information Network. "The Turks torture and violate 99 percent of their prisoners... �calan has been broken."

Sad facts support his theory: �calan, from his cell, urged his fighters to declare a cease-fire, and he compliantly admitted "that mistakes were made" in his leadership. Despite these concessions, he was sentenced to death on June 29th in a kangaroo court that Amnesty International has declared void, due to a biased disregard for due process. �calan and his lawyers petitioned for clemency; the Turkish government will announce its response on November 25th (Turkey Day, coincidentally).

The Kurd revolt will undoubtedly grind on without �calan, despite their continued isolation in the international community. Various European Green and Communist parties are sympathetic, but Germany, UK, and USA state departments have anathematized the PKK as a terrorist organization. NATO gives $800 million in grant funds annually to Turkey, plus cheap weapons hardware whenever they upgrade, and the Clinton administration sold Ankara $4.9 billion worth of Kurd-killing apparatus from 1992-1998.

Why are Kemalist Turks, with their gruesome resum�, pampered like sultans? Why is the Kurd agony disdained? The answer is: geography. Turkey serves NATO interests as a buffer state between the Islamic and Sadaam madness of the Middle East, and the post-Soviet chaos of the Caucasus. As long as Ankara maintains a secular, capitalistic, pseudo-democratic facade, it will enjoy rich handouts from the West, while eastern mountains and jails flow with blood from the eternal Turkey killings.

Hank Hyena is a columnist for SFGate.com and SF Metropolitan, and a frequent contributor to Salon

http://www.gettingit.com/article/380

http://hankhyena.net/
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Postby insan » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:19 am

Kikapu, instead reading some articles from some blockheads that have no idea abt the origins of the problem; u better read the below comprehensive study.

www.wilsoncenter.org/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/kur/chap01.pdf
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Postby christos1 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:33 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...the age of Nationalism preceded this time (around WWI). Ataturk had as his 'mentor', Napolean III, it's Founder.

indeed these men unified their countries by reaching accord with the diversity of their People as Individuals, as Persons self sustaining with common Principals, and goals. this Patrimony, enriched by free Association, Expression, and Movement should be our goal. others like Ghandi, and Martin Luther King have shown us this Truth as well.

no need to snicker about the horrible facts....
if enough brave men in Turkey say, i did this, or
i saw that, it is wrong, then
maybe a "Greek" will have the courage as well.

In any case, these acts change the world.


Ohh go smoke your peace pipe elsewhere. What is that drivel above, repulsewarrior? What kind of name is that anyway? Bugger off man.
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Postby christos1 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:38 am

repulsewarrior wrote:
paliometoxo wrote:
insan wrote:
paliometoxo wrote:it is very relevant.. turkey does the very same things it accuses greece/cyprus of doing yet for them to do it they dont care and its acceptable because kurds are the minority and dont speak their language so they deserve to die.. and they cry to the world that gcs did this and that to us simply because we are TURKISH

so yes it is relevant... turkey are hypocrits and so full of crap


Palio, i fed up telling u that Turks and Kurds fought together against the enemies for a common cause to establish a common homeland for themselves. Turks and Kurds not only fought together for Turkey but even in Iran they fought together to establish an autonomous government in 1946.

The abdication of Reza Shah in 1941 brought some relaxation of coercive assimilation though Persianisation was continued by Mohammed Reza Shah (1941-79). The Kurds were now considered to be "true-born (asil) Aryans," although their language was called a "dialect" in all official pronouncements. Under the favourable conditions of the post-World War 11 years, the Kurds and Turks of north-western Iran established their own autonomous republics in 1946 and made Kurdish and Turkish official languages of their states.


http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~siamakr/Kur ... olicy.html

There was no enmity between Turks and Kurds till some Hellenic and Armenian idiots provoked Kurds of Turkey.

In Cyprus the situation is completely different. The problem between 2 communities appeared long before the establishment of RoT. Even Ataturk was just 8 y.o when first signs of conflict erupted between TCs and GCs.


i fail to see what part of turks opressing the kurds not allowing them to speak kurdish in public basically tresating them like dogs means "fighting together for ROT"????


if we are talking history, one thing is clear: violence and opression are a cause.

,,,people who beat up on Ataturk because there are Kemalists don't get the big picture about our lives: as Persons, and as well united as Individuals.

Thus: for Cyprus to demonstrate qualities of Bicommunality, it is important to the greater region and to Mankind, beyond the plunder which seems to thrive today, that we this island's dwellers, can as Cypriots, provide for a greater diversity of culture within (and for) a plurality of Communities (Nationality) as well.


One thing is clear! Quit changing the subject of this thread. The thread is about Kurdish mass graves. not about singing coum ba ya (sp?) with your fellow Turk? Go talk about Cypriot diversity elsewhere. If i was a Kurd, i would be highly offended, how dare you!
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Postby Get Real! » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:49 am

christos1 wrote:One thing is clear! Quit changing the subject of this thread. The thread is about Kurdish mass graves. not about singing coum ba ya (sp?) with your fellow Turk? Go talk about Cypriot diversity elsewhere. If i was a Kurd, i would be highly offended, how dare you!

:lol: Repulse, may be a bit of a wandering mind but always a peaceful and well meaning bloke…
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Postby Kikapu » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:21 am

insan wrote:Kikapu, instead reading some articles from some blockheads that have no idea abt the origins of the problem; u better read the below comprehensive study.

www.wilsoncenter.org/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/kur/chap01.pdf


OK, I read the article you have given me, so how does it change anything what the article said that I gave you to read. If anything, it confirms what the "bloggerhead" has said, does it not.?
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Postby bill cobbett » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:36 am

Get Real! wrote:
christos1 wrote:One thing is clear! Quit changing the subject of this thread. The thread is about Kurdish mass graves. not about singing coum ba ya (sp?) with your fellow Turk? Go talk about Cypriot diversity elsewhere. If i was a Kurd, i would be highly offended, how dare you!

:lol: Repulse, may be a bit of a wandering mind but always a peaceful and well meaning bloke…


Quite right. Our RW's language may be a bit flower powery but if there were a few more Cys like him we would never have gotten in to this mess.
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:51 am

This is typical of the mendacious and vexatious postings that Oracle makes on this forum. The title she give the thread is "Turkey torturing and executing civilians .... again' by way of introducing an article which actually reports the investigations of Turkey into abuses from the 1980s and 1990s. So it is NOT a story about torturing and executing civilians again; it is about abuses which had happened before. Then Oracle, by using the generalisation 'Turkey', can't see that it is in fact Turks who are investigating the abuses of other Turks - quite the opposite of Turks torturing and executing civilians.

But to give an accurate title to a thread based on this BBC article would mean that Oracle would have to recognise the complexity and diversity of Turkey and Turkish politics and abandon her racist and fundamentalist charactarisation of Turkey.

This follows the pattern of virtually every contribution by Oracle to this forum : hate-filled, ignorant, self-serving and bilious distortions.
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Postby Get Real! » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:21 am

insan wrote:
Get Real! wrote:A quick search reveals the following Kurdish rebellions in Turkey…

Koçkiri Rebellion of 1920

Sheikh Said rebellion of 1925.

Ağrı rebellion of 1930

Dersim rebellion of 1937


All those rebellions was religious originated. Those fundamental religous Kurdish groups rebelled against secularism principle of RoT. They have nothing to do with the so-called Kurdish problem that was created by some idiot Hellenic and Armenian political interest groups, afterwards 80s.

Oh dear… if there are religious, language, and cultural differences, then it sounds like partition material to me! :lol:
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