Cyprus-Forum.com

[CBBB]

Don't get me wrong, as I am quite moderate, I was just trying to illustrate that the demands of the hard TCs that post here are not something their masters are willing to entertain in almost exactly the same situation!

[insan]

I forgot to mention that the Kurds also make up 20% of the population in Turkey and Kurdish is not an official language, nor do they have an equal status with the 80% of the population that are Turkish.

U r intentionally skipping the fact that Turks of Turkey and Kurds of Turkey fought and struggled together to form ROT. Turks of Turkey have never forced them to take side with Turks. Kurds accepted the Turkish language to be official language of Turkey in 1923. What's happened then and a seperatist Kurdish group began complaining this or that regarding Kurdish "minority" in Turkey. Actually Kurds of Turkey have never been considered as a minority by Turks of Turkey except an ultra-nationalist Turkish political group.

[CBBB]

That Ahmet Turk spoke Kurdish in the Assembly is a great move. More power to him.

It is though worth bearing in mind what the reaction would be if Turkish was spoken in the RoC parliament or Welsh was spoken at Westminster or Breton in the French parlement ? Isn't this a direct consequence of the use of official languages in official institutions !

Turkish spoken in the RoC parliament wouldn't be a problem as it is an official language of RoC. If there were complaints, they would be unjustified.

[CopperLine]

CBBB,
Yes, constitutionally it is the second official language, but what I wonder is what the reaction would be today amongst MPs ?

[YFred]

Unfortunately some in Turkey have no clue what democracy means.

Democracy is both majority rule and human and minority rights.

When the Turks are the majority, they want to cripple democracy by removing minority rights.

When the Turks are the minority, they want to cripple democracy by removing majority rule.

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. In the words of American essayist E.B. White: “Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half the people are right more than half the time.”

But majority rule, by itself, is not automatically democratic. No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities and dissenters — whether ethnic, religious, or simply the losers in political debate. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the good will of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

http://www.america.gov/media/pdf/books/ ... -brief.pdf

You talk crap. I asked you which you would have.
TCs like Kurds or Kurds like TCs and you couldn't bring yourself to answer.
Its very simple. Kurds needed what TCs got in 1960 to protect themselves. It just goes to prove how wrong you are.

[Piratis]

I forgot to mention that the Kurds also make up 20% of the population in Turkey and Kurdish is not an official language, nor do they have an equal status with the 80% of the population that are Turkish.

U r intentionally skipping the fact that Turks of Turkey and Kurds of Turkey fought and struggled together to form ROT. Turks of Turkey have never forced them to take side with Turks. Kurds accepted the Turkish language to be official language of Turkey in 1923. What's happened then and a seperatist Kurdish group began complaining this or that regarding Kurdish "minority" in Turkey. Actually Kurds of Turkey have never been considered as a minority by Turks of Turkey except an ultra-nationalist Turkish political group.

That is right insan. In Turkey a 20% of people are not even given their minority rights. In Turkey they give way less than what they should to their Kurdish minority, while in Cyprus they demand way more than what they should for their own minority.

Deputy Prime Minister Devlet Bahceli on Saturday said Turkey could not grant minority status to Kurds because that would legitimate the separatist war waged by Kurdish rebels.

Kurdish guerrilla leader Abdullah Ocalan – sentenced to hang for treason last year – has from his jail cell ordered his fighters to cease fire and instead wage a peaceful campaign for cultural rights for the country's 12 million Kurds.

The European Union has urged Turkish authorities to ease restrictions on the use of Kurdish language in education and broadcasting and improve its checkered human rights record as a step towards EU membership.

Turkey has so far refused, saying Kurds enjoy equal rights with Turks before the law. Only non-Muslims have minority status in Turkey under the 1923 Lausanne Agreement and rights such as that of education in their own languages.

"It is impossible for us to accept such an approach which on ethnic basis could justify a terror movement... by producing a new minority concept that goes beyond the minority description made by the Lausanne Agreement," the nationalist Bahceli told mainstream daily Hurriyet in an interview published on Saturday.

Bahceli's conservative coalition partners appear to take a softer line on Kurdish cultural rights. Conservative Mesut Yilmaz, coordinator for Turkey's EU membership bid, said last week that now that "terrorism" was over Ankara could take unprecedented steps.

Ocalan's Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) fought for self-rule in the mountainous southeast for 15 years, in a conflict that cost over 30,000 lives. Fighting has now largely ended.

Bahceli said there was no ban on using Kurdish in daily life but he opposed any further moves such as officially allowing education in Kurdish. "That would mean handing down what the PKK has been seeking for years as middle term goals in order to reach its final target," he was quoted as saying by the daily.

The Nationalist Action Party leader also objects to abolishing the death penalty, saying that would save Ocalan's neck. Scrapping it is a condition of EU membership.

http://www.metimes.com//2000/08/04/turk ... urds/2571/

So stop the lame excuses. If anything, the Kurds, who have a region which has been historically inhabited by a majority of Kurds (Kurdistan), and who existed in Asia Minor for far longer than the Turks, should have more rights than than the Turkish minority in Cyprus, not less.

So at the very least you should accept that what you demand for your 18% Turkish Cypriots, you should also be willing to give to the 20% Kurds in Turkey.

Anything else is double standards and no lame excuse can hide this.

[Piratis]

Unfortunately some in Turkey have no clue what democracy means.

Democracy is both majority rule and human and minority rights.

When the Turks are the majority, they want to cripple democracy by removing minority rights.

When the Turks are the minority, they want to cripple democracy by removing majority rule.

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. In the words of American essayist E.B. White: “Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half the people are right more than half the time.”

But majority rule, by itself, is not automatically democratic. No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities and dissenters — whether ethnic, religious, or simply the losers in political debate. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the good will of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

http://www.america.gov/media/pdf/books/ ... -brief.pdf

You talk crap. I asked you which you would have.
TCs like Kurds or Kurds like TCs and you couldn't bring yourself to answer.
Its very simple. Kurds needed what TCs got in 1960 to protect themselves. It just goes to prove how wrong you are.

The Kurds are historically the vast majority in a region called Kurdistan. Kurdistan should be an independent state.

Then the minority of Kurds that live in Turkey and the minority of Turks who live in Kurdistan (and the minority of TCs in Cyprus) should all have their human and minority rights and be equal citizens. This means being free to speak their language, be educated in their language, practice their own religion freely etc.

[insan]

What's your point, CBB? Tell us and then we might discuss ur point. Throughout the history, until early 80s there's no problem between Turks and Kurds. What's happened then and a speratist Kurdish group suddenly appeared in Turkey? Could enmity spreading Hellenic and Armenian self-interest groups have a finger on it? Looking forward to hear your opinions free from any fears of being accused of treason.

Insan, how can you defend what Turkey is doing to the Kurds.
Which ever way you look at it, it is wrong. No excuse for it what so ever.
There was another incident like this just after they changed the law, where another politician spoke in a meeting and got arrested. His appeals to the arresting officer that it was no longer illegal fell on deaf ears. He got taken to the police station and then released.
Everyone should be aware of the law by now.

YFred, Kurds of Turkey and seperatist Kurdish terrorists/political groups should not be confused with each other. As I mentioned in my previous posts, Kurds of Turkey have never been considered as a minority in Turkey. How could it be since they fought together against the enemy to form a country called RoT?

Ahmet Turk's case was an intentional attempt... Read the rest of the story from CNN source plz.

What GCs r trying to portray is the Kurdish case of Turkey and TC case of Cyprus is same. This is what i am objecting and trying to tell them that there's no similarity between TC case and Kurdish case.

[boulio]

Insan are you stating that the Kurdish probelm in turkey was created by greece and armenia?

And people here stating kurds as 20% of population of turkey are wrong its closer to 30% and in 30 years can reach anywere from 40-50% as there birth rate is three fold of turks.

[insan]

I forgot to mention that the Kurds also make up 20% of the population in Turkey and Kurdish is not an official language, nor do they have an equal status with the 80% of the population that are Turkish.

U r intentionally skipping the fact that Turks of Turkey and Kurds of Turkey fought and struggled together to form ROT. Turks of Turkey have never forced them to take side with Turks. Kurds accepted the Turkish language to be official language of Turkey in 1923. What's happened then and a seperatist Kurdish group began complaining this or that regarding Kurdish "minority" in Turkey. Actually Kurds of Turkey have never been considered as a minority by Turks of Turkey except an ultra-nationalist Turkish political group.

That is right insan. In Turkey a 20% of people are not even given their minority rights. In Turkey they give way less than what they should to their Kurdish minority, while in Cyprus they demand way more than what they should for their own minority.

Deputy Prime Minister Devlet Bahceli on Saturday said Turkey could not grant minority status to Kurds because that would legitimate the separatist war waged by Kurdish rebels.

Kurdish guerrilla leader Abdullah Ocalan – sentenced to hang for treason last year – has from his jail cell ordered his fighters to cease fire and instead wage a peaceful campaign for cultural rights for the country's 12 million Kurds.

The European Union has urged Turkish authorities to ease restrictions on the use of Kurdish language in education and broadcasting and improve its checkered human rights record as a step towards EU membership.

Turkey has so far refused, saying Kurds enjoy equal rights with Turks before the law. Only non-Muslims have minority status in Turkey under the 1923 Lausanne Agreement and rights such as that of education in their own languages.

"It is impossible for us to accept such an approach which on ethnic basis could justify a terror movement... by producing a new minority concept that goes beyond the minority description made by the Lausanne Agreement," the nationalist Bahceli told mainstream daily Hurriyet in an interview published on Saturday.

Bahceli's conservative coalition partners appear to take a softer line on Kurdish cultural rights. Conservative Mesut Yilmaz, coordinator for Turkey's EU membership bid, said last week that now that "terrorism" was over Ankara could take unprecedented steps.

Ocalan's Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) fought for self-rule in the mountainous southeast for 15 years, in a conflict that cost over 30,000 lives. Fighting has now largely ended.

Bahceli said there was no ban on using Kurdish in daily life but he opposed any further moves such as officially allowing education in Kurdish. "That would mean handing down what the PKK has been seeking for years as middle term goals in order to reach its final target," he was quoted as saying by the daily.

The Nationalist Action Party leader also objects to abolishing the death penalty, saying that would save Ocalan's neck. Scrapping it is a condition of EU membership.

http://www.metimes.com//2000/08/04/turk ... urds/2571/

So stop the lame excuses. If anything, the Kurds, who have a region which has been historically inhabited by a majority of Kurds (Kurdistan), and who existed in Asia Minor for far longer than the Turks, should have more rights than than the Turkish minority in Cyprus, not less.

So at the very least you should accept that what you demand for your 18% Turkish Cypriots, you should also be willing to give to the 20% Kurds in Turkey.

Anything else is double standards and no lame excuse can hide this.

Oddly enough, the soil seperatist Kurds claim from Turkey also is claimed by expansionist Armenians.