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Are TCs more Turks or Cypriots

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:40 pm

sadik wrote:The changes in the Annan plan, in general, were more favourable to the Turkish side. Part of the reason is that Americans wanted to please Turkey in Cyprus because they needed it in Iraq. But I also think that the GC leadership was not really negotiating and they didn't really try to get positive changes in the plan. It seems to me that they were more focused on having the plan rejected in the referandum than getting it into an acceptable shape.


Sadik, I am glad that you can at least see the nasty game that the UN and the Anglo-Americans have played against the interests of all Cypriots. Because the last solution attempt was indeed a very crucial missed opportunity and this unfortunate reality affects and troubles equally, both communities. If they were serious with Cyprus and it’s people, they should have never attempted this scandalous act of pleasing Turkey’s desires at the last moment. They should have also allowed much more time for real and actual negotiations between the two sides, something which did not occur, but instead they tried to do as much as they failed to do during so many years, in just 3-4 weeks. In the end they undermined their own effort to help us reach a solution and even worse, they played with and damaged the feelings of the people of our two communities. Setting aside the content, the very procedure it self, all that rush and all that nearly forceful attempt to get the problem “solved” in this way, should have been enough reason for the two communities to have rejected it.

I agree with you that Papadopoullos, at some stage towards the end of the procedure, having realised that the game was more or less prearranged or fixed, gave up hope and instead he let the let the plan go down the drain even more, so that he could get an easier “No” from the people. I do not think though that this was his initial intention, nor that he did not try at any stage of the process to negotiate in good faith.

One wonders however, at what stage there was a real chance for meaningful and potentially productive negotiations between the two sides?

Up until one week before the “famous” finalisation of the plan by De Sotto in Switzerland, the negotiator of the TC side was Mr. Denktash. One whole month of “negotiations” in Nicosia airport was wasted between Papadopoullos and Denktash, with each one refusing to examine the positions of the other for different reasons. As you may remember, up to the last moment, Denktash was asking for separate sovereigneities, intermediate agreed recognition of a separate state before the entering into force of the new state of affairs, absolute and complete bizonality and political equality of the two states, etc, etc. His entire approach was that of a confederation of two independed states rather than a federation on the basis of the A-plan. Papadopoullos was adamant and refused to discuss anything along Denktash parameters and consequently Denktash was adamant and refused to negotiate along Papadopoullos proposals. One month was wasted just like that.

Then the process moved on to Switzerland for the final 5 days in which the two “motherlands” were supposed to participate in order to facilitate the agreement between the two sides. Talat supposedly took over from Denktash, only to hide behind the Turkish Delegation, which carried out all the contacts. Talat wouldn’t agree to negotiate with Papadopoullos separately because Turkey was supposed to be a party to the negotiations and not just a facilitator, Papadopoullos on the other hand wouldn’t accept the two motherlands to be integral parties of the process but stay on the perimeter and only to be consulted when needed, etc. No real negotiations took place there either and instead the UN were carrying papers from one side to the other, until the days passed and De Sotto and Annan made their job to finalise the plan that was going to be send to the people in the referendums.

Sadik wrote:Nevertheless, I believe in politics of good will, i.e., making gestures of good will and sending positive signals, even when it is unilateral. Taking a hardened position of no concession is not condusive to a solution, so, if our goal is obtaining a 'YES-YES' result, the TC leadership should take a more open position and show more willingness to discuss the issues that lead to the rejection of the plan.


I absolutely agree with you on this paragraph. I would like to read your opinion on what such good will gestures on behalf of the GC side towards the TC side, would have made some difference, given the current situation that we are going through at the moment and which are feasible in your opinion, for the GC side to undertake.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:52 pm

One other important result of the Burgenstock process was that Turkey and Greece FAILED to agree on the security framework on which everything in the agreement hinged upon. How could anyone accept the plan when the two motherlands couldn't agree on its implementation?

The whole process from start to finish was a farce. The UN has to take a large portion of the blame for the failure of the plan.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:14 pm

-mikkie2-
The UN has to take a large portion of the blame for the failure of the plan.


so easy to lay blame elsewhere, we fucked up once again not anyone else, if one of the sides doesnt want a solution and says no, that means we cant agree on the basis of any plan if we dont nefotiate in goodfaith. Otheriwse we could arrive at Annan 7284 and still vote it down, there needs to be an end to all this bullshit which if left to Cypriots would still be a problem in 300 years times. Thats why we need help becasue we are not capable of talking to each other direct and agreeing on anything, this being the case you will always be open to manipulation and pay the price.
The GC administration being the recognised party has to take the lead and get the communities around the table otherwise outside factors will dominate and control us, the next plan may even be more unacceptable to GCs or TCs and we will vote that down as well, where will that leave us???
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:25 pm

Viewpoint wrote:the next plan may even be more unacceptable to GCs or TCs and we will vote that down as well, where will that leave us???


Chances are it will eventually lead us to what you are dreaming about, Viewpoint!

That is why any new initiative should be carefully prepared and enough time for negotiations is allowed. Any plan before going to referendums has to be agreed and co-signed by the leaderships of the two communities, so that they will also be obliged to back it up when put in front of the people in the referendums.

But why do you worry anyway?
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:36 pm

VP

The UN knowing the history of the problem should have known better than to set out a roadmap that was bound to lead to failure.

It is obvious that much more time is needed to build confidence and that can only be done by deeds, not by talking.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:40 pm

Kifeas
Any plan before going to referendums has to be agreed and co-signed by the leaderships of the two communities,


now whos dreaming???

But why do you worry anyway?


who said im worried Im expressing my viewpoint, is that ok with you??? all I want is an end to all this uncertainty and constant delays, to agree anything both communities have to meet and negotiate in good faith, why doesnt Papadop call Talats bluff and arrange a meet in front of world media, I think just the move and the least effect it would improve his damamged international image.
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Postby brother » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:08 pm

why doesnt Papadop call Talats bluff and arrange a meet in front of world media, I think just the move and the least effect it would improve his damamged international image.


Exactly but tassos knows that Talat would attend and he would then be left in a more difficult position because i do not believe he wants a solution.
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Postby Main_Source » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:11 pm

Brother...so what do you thinkabout the recent trade offs Papdopolous offered to ease reunification..to which Talat said no. Seems like Talat doesnt want reunification..all he wants is to get the ball rolling for full recognition of 'TRNC'.
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Postby brother » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:14 pm

Tassos offered nothing that was substantial enough to show that talat was in the wrong for not accepting or the E.U and world press would right now be crucifying him.
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Postby Main_Source » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:29 pm

For the return of Varosha, Tassos offered the joint GC/TC port venture.

He also offered to lift the ban on using the ports for trade, within limits, for the halt of redevelopment on GC land.

The GC/TC port would have been very good for the reunification process, especially with the PR that would have come with it....which for the return of atown that has meant nothing to 'TRNC', was a good deal.

As for the halt on redevelopment on GC property, you know very well the property issue is very important within agreement for reunification...and for Talat to flatly deny this halt, it shows he is not as sincere as you would like to believe on his efforts for reunification. As for the limited trade via the ports in the north, well I think anyone who is sincere for reunification but wants trade via the north, would be very foolish to turn this down. The lifting on the ban may be limited...but it would be a huge development and who is to say that there could not be a review of the limits of international trade via these ports, somewhere down the line...so to say that in a couple of years time, if all is goign well and it looks that Talat is still ginuine about reunification, then the limits could be weakened even more.

All Talat wanted was total free international trade via the north, which is stupid and plainly looks like he never wanted reunification and just wants the ball rolling to get 'TRNC' recognised. Many TC keep on saying that Papdopolous does not want reunification and Talat is all for it...with this development though...I dont see how people can still say this. It's RoC that have made the more freindlier concessions and offer of concessions than Talat has.

Lastly, forget the press...the press is worked by spin doctors and PR people...most of the worlds press doesnt even know the situation right now.
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