Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Perhaps out of politeness, Moose has given you a typical British diplomatic and hermaphrodite answer.

Not quite sure how my answer was 'hermaphrodite'

It was an answer that could accommodate both views. The one claiming that it is possible to a certain degree if we only push for it and the other view that claims it is not possible because of the international legality. In other words an in between reply!

The international legal framework is such that it is almost impossible, no matter how much Moose’s government would like to see it happening and how hard is trying for it. Unless the RoC decides otherwise!

Whilst I agree entirely, it would require the agreement of the RoC to lift the international ban on flights to the north, I'd contend your position that this is somehow 'my government'. I did not vote for them, I don't support them and they don't represent my views. Therefore, although they may be the 'British government', they certainly aren't 'mine'.

Okay! I said your government in the sense that it is the UK government and you are a UK citizen who also currently lives in the UK.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas are you avoiding answering my repsonses to your post?? just so I know.....

[Kifeas]

Why?? so that you have a stronger hand to dominate???even the mere idea or 1 flight will serve to bring GC administration to the negotiating table otherwise they will use this issue to persue their maximilistic demands.

We do not want to dominate anybody viewpoint. You already have a dominating position over us. You still occupy 180,000 people’s properties for 31 years now. You do have the military and diplomatic support of Turkey on your side. You do not need more dominating weapons upon us. We are ready to come to the negotiating table any time the TC /Turkish leaderships decide to become reasonable and sensible and also that they too have a need to solve the problem. So far we do not get this impression.

I dont agree with you here , if we intend to become 2 equal partners, then surely we shoudl benefit the same as yourselves, is your real aim to keep us the weaker partner so that as in the post you can dominate and control us??? this inisistence of GCs not to allow direct trade brings back those fears which do not allow us to proceed, get rid of this negative outlook towards our isolation allow us to have direct flights etc and you will get the TC administration viewpoint you desire.

They do not bring up any fears whatsoever. For 31 years you didn’t have direct trade but that didn’t make you any sensible and you kept Mr. Denktash in power that wanted only partition and nothing else. There is an Aesop myth regarding the story you are telling me about. Go and find and read the story of the Fox and the raven with the cheese in her mouth. It suits perfectly to your story. By the way, since you do not have partition in the back of your mind and since, as you claim, you want a solution and re-unification, why you do not denounce the establishment of the TRNC. The embargoes by the international community were imposed against you because of the proclamation of the TRNC in 1983, if you do not know it!

How do you suggest we do this when we are dependent on them, and you dont allow us to improve our economy so that we may try and shrugg off Turkey, they have protected and funded us for the last 31 years, if you dont help us we cannot help ourselves in order to help you, im being very sincere here.

Perhaps we will allow it when we are convinced that what you are really up to is not partition and that you are ready to denounce the TRNC. Furthermore you have to know that you are occupying our properties and it is only natural to expect you to return at least the excess from your fair share of these properties. As long as you do not do that, then in our eyes you (your administration) look like thieves and we cannot simply reward the thieve with economic benefits in order to convince him to decide if and when he will return the stolen goods. Why you do not do the above first and then ask for economic incentives?

Please my friend dont say this, in all rounds of the negotiations we were the underdogs and you the stronger contributor I know this from personal experience, all the negotiations were based on GC presentations and a few adjustments for TC concerns. Good faith has always been a TC trait to the point of naivetivity, please look to your own leadership and request that the negotiate in good faith if they had of done this during Annan 5 we may have been united today and not having this conversation.

I do not know what you are talking about here. Can you be more specific?

Dont forget we are Cypriots, we cant agree on anything because the is no trust.

It goes both ways.

I really want to belive you but unfortunately due to numerous reasons and our history there has to be concrete steps taken by the GC administration backing what you state otherwise the aleady depleted trust factor will continue to decrease and finally disappear pushing us further apart towards cemented partition. It would only take a few very postive moves by the south to gain TC confidence and support that would help them become more flexible and understanding towards GC concerns and demands.

Our trust factor has already been completely depleted due to the Turkish and Denkatshist 30 year intransigence and partitionist policies. Remember Ecevit? “The Cyprus problem has been solved in 1974.” Since you want to talk about the trust factor all the time, then hear this, if you have one reason not to trust us, we have perhaps 10 reasons.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

We do not want to dominate anybody viewpoint. You already have a dominating position over us. You still occupy 180,000 people’s properties for 31 years now. You do have the military and diplomatic support of Turkey on your side. You do not need more dominating weapons upon us. We are ready to come to the negotiating table any time the TC /Turkish leaderships decide to become reasonable and sensible and also that they too have a need to solve the problem. So far we do not get this impression.

No thats why you want majority rule and argue that we are minority of 18% at every opportunity, and yet again you revert back to property, you have 63% of the land and international recognition and support for the past 40 years..so now we are dominating you, you have taken yourselves in to Europe and do what the hell you want claiming you also represent us are you joking???
Look Kifeas, lets clear this point, the majority of TCs have no problem with GCs getting back property rights back but this will only come with an overall settlement so theres no use in going on about it all the time. Once you decide to call Talats bluff and get to the table get your leaders to negotiate in good faith this time for what you want and if it is accepted by both sides then you may get what u want most property.
So your leaders are doing everything within their means to get the talks going again, please try and be objective here..they are playing the power game you must be able to see it for what it is, Papadop wants to keep his office and not a solution.

By the way, since you do not have partition in the back of your mind and since, as you claim, you want a solution and re-unification, why you do not denounce the establishment of the TRNC. The embargoes by the international community were imposed against you because of the proclamation of the TRNC in 1983, if you do not know it!

We are not pushing the TRNC recognition angle any longer not after referendum but you are helping revive and push us towards seeing that just maybe Denktas was right and the only real route to solving this issue is waiting patiently for recognition be it 50 years or 100 years...

There is an Aesop myth regarding the story you are telling me about. Go and find and read the story of the Fox and the raven with the cheese in her mouth.

OK

Perhaps we will allow it when we are convinced that what you are really up to is not partition and that you are ready to denounce the TRNC. Furthermore you have to know that you are occupying our properties and it is only natural to expect you to return at least the excess from your fair share of these properties. As long as you do not do that, then in our eyes you (your administration) look like thieves and we cannot simply reward the thieve with economic benefits in order to convince him to decide if and when he will return the stolen goods. Why you do not do the above first and then ask for economic incentives?

Do something concrete for a change show you are Europeans and want to reach out to us and compromise, why not try this and see what happens get as many guarantees as necessary to ensure we meet our obligations be this return of property or denouncing TRNC, you have give something to receive something in return and the south being the recognized part of the island and stronger eceonomically in my opinion should take the first concrete step this would help TCs shrugg off Turkey as you so put it otherwise as long as we are dependent on them we have no way of moving away from them towards a union with the south.

Our trust factor has already been completely depleted due to the Turkish and Denkatshist 30 year intransigence and partitionist policies. Remember Ecevit? “The Cyprus problem has been solved in 1974.” Since you want to talk about the trust factor all the time, then hear this, if you have one reason not to trust us, we have perhaps 10 reasons.

I agree and vise versa, this is our main stmbling block and as long as we are unable to resolve this issue we will resolve nothing in the future and division will remain forever.

[Main_Source]

What uninformed people like Main Source don't get is that Cyprus problem is not just GCs killing TCs for TCs and TC fears are not solely the possibility of GC violence against TCs in the future.. It's the majority dominating the minority, the majority making decisions with no regard to the minority under the name of democracy, the majority feeling superior to the minority...and so on. So Main Source, my friend, yes I also don't expect GCs killing TCs in a united EU member Cyprus but it's a possibility that GCs might want to make all the decisions with no regard to TCs in the future and you have no right to tell my community what we can or we can't be scared of.

So should people not have the right to return to their ancestrol home or settle in any part of their country, because TC happen to be 18% of the population make up and not 50%. Why should refugees continue to suffer because of this. It just seems like one excuse after another to keep partition.

[cannedmoose]

It was an answer that could accommodate both views. The one claiming that it is possible to a certain degree if we only push for it and the other view that claims it is not possible because of the international legality. In other words an in between reply!

Maybe I have a career in diplomacy ahead of me after all

Okay! I said your government in the sense that it is the UK government and you are a UK citizen who also currently lives in the UK.

Hairy muff...

[Kifeas]

It was an answer that could accommodate both views. The one claiming that it is possible to a certain degree if we only push for it and the other view that claims it is not possible because of the international legality. In other words an in between reply!

Maybe I have a career in diplomacy ahead of me after all

Well, if diplomacy for you means to give out or let cultivate fake hopes and illusions so that you keep everyone on your side, then you certainly do have. I just call it political amoralism.

[cannedmoose]

Well, if diplomacy for you means to give out or let cultivate fake hopes and illusions so that you keep everyone on your side, then you certainly do have. I just call it political amoralism.

It's called attempting to see things from both sides re, far from political amoralism, if you want that start and finish at Kissinger, not me...

[detailer]

What uninformed people like Main Source don't get is that Cyprus problem is not just GCs killing TCs for TCs and TC fears are not solely the possibility of GC violence against TCs in the future.. It's the majority dominating the minority, the majority making decisions with no regard to the minority under the name of democracy, the majority feeling superior to the minority...and so on. So Main Source, my friend, yes I also don't expect GCs killing TCs in a united EU member Cyprus but it's a possibility that GCs might want to make all the decisions with no regard to TCs in the future and you have no right to tell my community what we can or we can't be scared of.

So should people not have the right to return to their ancestrol home or settle in any part of their country, because TC happen to be 18% of the population make up and not 50%. Why should refugees continue to suffer because of this. It just seems like one excuse after another to keep partition.

Political equality does not neccesarily come from numerical equality. When will you get that simple fact?

[Kifeas]

Political equality does not neccesarily come from numerical equality. When will you get that simple fact?

And likewise, political equality does not mean or translate into numerical equality, but this is another issue.

Can you give me some good reasons why the 80% of the Cypriot population should accept and give the same amount of political power to the 18% of the Cypriot population?