Cyprus-Forum.com

[PEACE]

We don't want to get lost in Greek Cypriot community!

Why are you so scared of being swamped by us? Piratis was right, one individual is as good as another. Can you please explain to me what your special political needs are?

If we haven't got any speacial rights its clear that we'll have minority rights under Greek dominance.Why are we so scared of beig swamped by you? We are looking to your leaders' behaviour and thinking style and that's enough!

[X-ite]

Can you be more precise?

[CYtr]

YES peace EVET cozum NAI ειρηνη ΓΙΑΔΙ ΟΧΙ

[erolz]

Why are you so scared of being swamped by us?

because of the history of how a GC majority behaved to a TC minority in the past. We have to be able to believe that this will not happen again.

and for me, partly because of posters like Piratis if I am honest. It would seem that his idea of convincing me as a TC that what happened in the past will not happen again, is for TC to have less political equality than in the past (actualy NO political eqaulity to any degree at all is his objective it would seem), to have less external guarnatees than in the past (again NO external guarantees at all would seem to be his position) and for TC to have the status of an ethinc minority with in a GC state. If this is his 'strategy' for removing my fears of living as a TC ethnic minority in a GC controlled state, then it is not a very good or convincing one in my view.

[Piratis]

Erolz, what I offer to you is democracy and full human rights for everybody.
What I support is what they have in France, in UK, in US, in Germany, in Italy, in Spain, in Portugal, in Poland, in Hungary, in Ireland, in Sweden, in Norway, in Finland, in Australia, in Turkey .. oops take turkey out, I don't want TCs to be treated as Kurds are treated in Turkey.

So what I am saying is just the normal. I want to have a normal democratic country. Is that so bad for you?

I said it to Insan a while ago:
If we are going to be friends we have to respect each others human and democratic rights. Why should I want to be your friend and make peace with you when you want to continue violating my and my children and grandchildren human and democratic rights?

[erolz]

Erolz, what I offer to you is democracy and full human rights for everybody.
What I support is what they have in France, in UK, in US, in Germany, in Italy, in Spain, in Portugal, in Poland, in Hungary, in Ireland, in Sweden, in Norway, in Finland, in Australia, in Turkey .. oops take turkey out, I don't want TCs to be treated as Kurds are treated in Turkey.

Cyprus' history is unique. Have any of the countries mentioned above exited for many 1000's of years as an owned country with no independance? Did they gain their independance only in the last 50 years? Did they have two distinic ehtnic groups that made up the population of the island/country for hundreds of years?

Have you never heard of the 'tyranny of the majority'?

So what I am saying is just the normal. I want to have a normal democratic country. Is that so bad for you?

It is normal for an ethnic group of people that have lived as such for hundreds of years to seek a right to self determination? To not be controlled by a larger majority from another ethnic group?

Your ideal of 'normal' is based on a normalacy that simply does not exists in Cyprus (but does in all your other invalid comparisons). That of a common national idendtity. There has never been a common national cypriot idendtity in Cyprus. There has always been a G Cypriot identity and a T Cypriot idenitity. It is for the very reason that from the inception of the independent state of Cyprus there was some form of acceptance of a need for and a reality of some degree of political 'equality'. There was back then I believe (amongst progressives and optimists at least) a hope that over time this reality of two sperate people living togeather on Cyprus would evolve into a true common Cypriot idenitity. That hope was destroyed by the events from 60 onwards and is still being thwarted by your current position today. You want to impose a 'normalacy' that has to be based on and dependent on a single common Cypriot identity before such common idendtity exists. You also just 'happen' to be in the numericaly larger of the two communites whilst insisting this - coincidence perhaps?

I said it to Insan a while ago:
If we are going to be friends we have to respect each others human and democratic rights. Why should I want to be your friend and make peace with you when you want to continue violating my and my children and grandchildren human and democratic rights?

What it feels you are saying to me is either accpet that TC must live as a political minority in Cyprus under the domination of a GC majority - or accept you will be my enemy. That to mee feels less like an offer of friendship and more like a threat. Just because I do not accept TC should live under laws and rules and a government that is controlled and dominated by a different ethnic group, and one that has a long history of animosity towards TC, that does not mean I am violating your, your childrens or grandchildrens human or democratic rights. Unless you believe it is a basic human right for a seperate and distinict ethnic group to control and dominate the destiny of another seperate and different ethnic group?

Do you think a united Cyprus should be 'multi lingual'? That there should be two offical languages? Or do you believe that all TC, their children and grand children should be forced to speak Greek? If you believe they should then that is just one example of the potential for a 'tyranny of the majority'. Even if you do not and agree it should be written into the consitituion of Cyprus that there are two languages, what is to stop a GC majority later deciding and imposing Greek as the sole offical language of Cyprus (and thus destroying Cyprus' TC culture), if there are to be no protections for TC given by some form of political equality? Or am I supposed to just trust in the goodwill and sense of the majority and further a majority that has a long long history of animosity to TC?

If you a comparable 'normalacy' to other countries in EU then first you must create the 'normalacy' of a single common national Cypriot identity. To insist on one without the other is for me unreasonable, unrealistic and biased and not compatible with true unity in Cyprus, or for that matter fundamental human rights. It is compatible for me with a GC who believes Cyprus is Greek and solely Greek. With one that believes the problems of Cyprus are related to TC not being willing to accept their place (as a minority) in a Greek Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Cyprus' history is unique.

Every country is unique. Thats a redicoulus argument!!
And there are many countries that are made from 2 or more ethnic groups, do you really believe Cyprus is the only one???
In all other stable and democratic countries those ethnic groups undertand what democracy means and they live in peace.

It is normal for an ethnic group of people that have lived as such for hundreds of years to seek a right to self determination? To not be controlled by a larger majority from another ethnic group?

If you don't want to live with us, then don't. But you can't take a piece of our country and make it your own. It simply does not belong to you. We live in this island for 3500 years. If you want to share the island with us this is your right like any other Cypriot, but you can not cut a piece and use it exclusively for yourselvs.

Cyprus can be multi lingual and multi anything. I don't mind the variety. I don't want to change you. What I want is democracy and human rights.

what is to stop a GC majority later deciding and imposing Greek as the sole offical language of Cyprus (and thus destroying Cyprus' TC culture), if there are to be no protections for TC given by some form of political equality? Or am I supposed to just trust in the goodwill and sense of the majority and further a majority that has a long long history of animosity to TC?

The constitution will give you this protection, which will be one of the things that can change only if both communities agree.

[erolz]

The constitution will give you this protection, which will be one of the things that can change only if both communities agree.

So you DO agree that on certain issue and to a certain degree the TC SHOULD have political equlity with GC!

And if a numerical majority made up of GC wanted to change this part of the constituion you would stand up and protect the right of a TC minority to veto such a change? You would argue that on this issue a minority should have a right to block the will of the numerical majority? What about other issues? Should we have the right to decided what is taught in TC schools for example - or any other number of issues?

I would also point out that we had just such guarantees in the 1960 consistution - yet it was changed without our consent anyway.

[Piratis]

So you DO agree that on certain issue and to a certain degree the TC SHOULD have political equlity with GC!

Of course. I wrote this several times, but it is not possible to repeat my whole position every time.

Have a look here for what I said a month before the referendum and I continue to support:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus211.html

Some things that I also said but not included in that thread is that the land under TC administration should be around 24-25%.

The "specific ratio" I mention in that thread should be about 20% TCs things like central government positions, central police etc. and 25% TCs for ministers and other very high positions in the central government.

From what you say it seems that you got a very wrong impression about my beliefs. All I am asking for is to live a normal democratic country like any other in the EU. I do not want to oppress or to change your community.
We can live peacefully in a correct federal system (similar to what they have in the US for example).
If TCs use the power of their motherland and its connections with the USA to force on us something unfair (e.g. Annan plan), this might give you short term benefits on our loss, but sooner or later the people that are oppressed will explode, the circle of blood will continue and such thing in the end will benefit none of us. This is why I keep saying that no solution is better from a bad solution.

[PEACE]

If you don't want to live with us, then don't. But you can't take a piece of our country and make it your own. It simply does not belong to you. We live in this island for 3500 years

Well,this is enough to see Piratis' logical thinking style(!).Congratulations!

If you are a Cypriot than why you live in here for 3500 years? All of the owners of Cyprus are CYPRIOTS.So??Cypriots are living in Cyprus from when the island appeared !

Your trap catched you Piratis! You want to say that Cyprus is a Greek island and you are the boss ! why don't you admit your real thouhts!?

All I am asking for is to live a normal democratic country like any other in the EU. I do not want to oppress or to change your community.

OK,lets suppose it like what you said.But what about the others?
Honestly i DON'T trust to your leaders ! We saw what Makarios wanted to do in the past.How can i be sure that Papadopulos won't be a second Makarios!?

Also don't forget that you are NOT free and you are not determining politic way freely! Greece is seeking for her benefits in Cyprus also!
England and Turkey too.So you have to accept that they will effect us anyway!

Also i can see that you beleive English bases will be canceled because of you wanted ! OK my friend! Let's want and see what happens! If you have power its not problem!