Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

GR presents you with… “The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster!” website, currently online under the free web hosting services of 100WebSpace until further notice, (which unfortunately includes the web host’s ads at the top), featuring many GR articles written over the years on the CyProb.

The premise was to keep it short, sweet, clear, and simple, and many more articles will be added soon, and hopefully a search function to quickly find relevant facts on any given issue...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net

All feedback is welcome…

Regards, GR.

[yialousa1971]

Your article called The REAL ancestors of the Cypriots is factualy incorrect other than that I didn't find any fault as yet.

[Paphitis]

GR presents you with… “The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster!” website, currently online under the free web hosting services of 100WebSpace until further notice, (which unfortunately includes the web host’s ads at the top), featuring many GR articles written over the years on the CyProb.

The premise was to keep it short, sweet, clear, and simple, and many more articles will be added soon, and hopefully a search function to quickly find relevant facts on any given issue...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net

All feedback is welcome…

Regards, GR.

Free web space hosting is an excellent tool and should be utilised by many Cyprus Problems activists, as a tool to further factual content about the Cyprus Problem.

http://www.100webspace.com/

Unfortunately it is also open to abuse as any Tom, Dick and Harry can also write nonsensical articles based on their opinion and not fact.

Naturally, those that actually pay a proper web host and contribute real facts are those that really do care about the Cyprus Problem. The same individuals don't put their ego ahead of the national cause either.

Here is a list of real sources portraying real facts and not historical distortions:

http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=9433

http://www.cyprusactionnetwork.org/

http://en.sae.gr/?id=12657&sn=2

[insan]

GR presents you with… “The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster!” website, currently online under the free web hosting services of 100WebSpace until further notice, (which unfortunately includes the web host’s ads at the top), featuring many GR articles written over the years on the CyProb.

The premise was to keep it short, sweet, clear, and simple, and many more articles will be added soon, and hopefully a search function to quickly find relevant facts on any given issue...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net

All feedback is welcome…

Regards, GR.

Free web space hosting is an excellent tool and should be utilised by many Cyprus Problems activists, as a tool to further factual content about the Cyprus Problem.

http://www.100webspace.com/

Unfortunately it is also open to abuse as any Tom, Dick and Harry can also write nonsensical articles based on their opinion and not fact.

Naturally, those that actually pay a proper web host and contribute real facts are those that really do care about the Cyprus Problem. The same individuals don't put their ego ahead of the national cause either.

Here is a list of real sources portraying real facts and not historical distortions:

http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=9433

http://www.cyprusactionnetwork.org/

http://en.sae.gr/?id=12657&sn=2

Yeah, pure propaganda made by Gene Rossides.

[samarkeolog]

GR presents you with… “The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster!” website, currently online under the free web hosting services of 100WebSpace until further notice, (which unfortunately includes the web host’s ads at the top), featuring many GR articles written over the years on the CyProb.

The premise was to keep it short, sweet, clear, and simple, and many more articles will be added soon, and hopefully a search function to quickly find relevant facts on any given issue...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net

All feedback is welcome…

Regards, GR.

Hey GR!,

It's interesting; but you do say that 'BAD sources of "evidence" include.... Greek Cypriot, Turkish Cypriot, Armenian Cypriot, Turkish, and Greek websites, all prone to bias and therefore suspected of serving their respective interests', then include the Republic of Cyprus as one of the 'credible links'. I'm sorry, but the Republic is biased; it has interests, and the history it tells is unfair.

As for the 'Ottoman Genocide of the indigenous people of Cyprus', you quoted Lemkin's description of it as,

a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

But then you observe that '[i]n three whole centuries of Ottoman rule, the population of Cyprus "grew" by just 6,200 people!!! If that’s not an Ottoman genocide of the indigenous people of Cyprus, I don’t know what is…' Low population growth is not proof of genocide. It is not genocide.

Proof of genocide requires proof of criminal intent, premeditation and deliberation, conspiracy to destroy the group. Do you have any evidence of intent? Do you have any evidence of anything? Please, please do not misuse genocide. You can make great criticisms of the Ottoman Empire. You do not need to accuse the Ottoman Empire of genocide of Cypriots.

It is unfair to the Armenian, Assyrian, and Pontic and Anatolian Greek victims of genocide under Ottoman rule. (And some credible scholars still have questions or reservations about some of those Assyrian/Greek claims.)

[Oracle]

Thank you samarkeolog ..

Whatever other genocides and historical atrocities Turkey my be accused of having carried out in the distant past; you have provided the summation of clear and intentful, deliberate slaughter of specifically one ethnic group, the GCs, by the thousands, with present day admissions still prevalent, regarding acts of war crimes conducted by Turks .... This GENOCIDE by Turkey occurred recently and at a time which matters deeply to us all - 1974. The consequences and the evidence of that act of GENOCIDE of GCs by Turkey, are still with us today, with visible proof of the most enormous of ethnic cleansing operations in existence in the Western world ....

[Piratis]

samarkeolog, we know that 20.000 Cypriots were killed within days in Nicosia alone when the Ottomans first invaded. We also know that during the Ottoman rule there were many Cypriot rebellions which were oppressed by the Ottomans.

Beyond that it depends on how you classify "genocide". We are not only talking about a very small population growth as GR says. We are actually talking about a reduction of the native population, since during their rule the Ottomans brought several 10s of thousands of Muslims to Cyprus, a number which is much more than the 6.200 people of population growth.

So how can this population reduction be explained? In Cyprus we always had some natural hazards like earthquakes and drought, but from what I know there was no major earthquake to wipe out significant parts of the population during Ottoman times, and drought could only affect the population during short periods, not over a 3 century period.

My queses is that their policies have let to starvation, and whenever some disaster occurred the Ottoman authorities did nothing to help the population and they just let them die. This coupled with the occasional massacre, is what probably let to population reduction. The other possible explanation is that the Ottoman numbers are completely wrong. Can you give any other possible explanation? When we initially discussed the issue another member "insan" said that maybe many Cypriots went to Greece after Greece gained its independence. Personally I don't think that happened with any significant number.

[samarkeolog]

samarkeolog, we know that 20.000 Cypriots were killed within days in Nicosia alone when the Ottomans first invaded. We also know that during the Ottoman rule there were many Cypriot rebellions which were oppressed by the Ottomans.

Beyond that it depends on how you classify "genocide". We are not only talking about a very small population growth as GR says. We are actually talking about a reduction of the native population, since during their rule the Ottomans brought several 10s of thousands of Muslims to Cyprus, a number which is much more than the 6.200 people of population growth.

So how can this population reduction be explained? In Cyprus we always had some natural hazards like earthquakes and drought, but from what I know there was no major earthquake to wipe out significant parts of the population during Ottoman times, and drought could only affect the population during short periods, not over a 3 century period.

My queses is that their policies have let to starvation, and whenever some disaster occurred the Ottoman authorities did nothing to help the population and they just let them die. This coupled with the occasional massacre, is what probably let to population reduction. The other possible explanation is that the Ottoman numbers are completely wrong. Can you give any other possible explanation? When we initially discussed the issue another member "insan" said that maybe many Cypriots went to Greece after Greece gained its independence. Personally I don't think that happened with any significant number.

I don't know much about the Ottoman period.

I know that wars are bloody things and thamassacres were standard. That does not make any of the massacres good or acceptable. But not every war was a genocide. We cannot reduce imperial conquest and extermination to the same thing. Would you want the Cypriot state to be accused of genocide because there were massacres during conflicts it was involved in?

The massacres were grotesque, but they did not intend to destroy Cyprus or the Cypriots, they did not intend to exterminate the community, so no, it was not genocide. Frankly, I do not understand why "massacre" is insufficiently critical. Massacres are vile, dreadful, shameful things. They were not acts of genocide, but they were vile, dreadful, shameful massacres.

[Piratis]

samarkeolog, we know that 20.000 Cypriots were killed within days in Nicosia alone when the Ottomans first invaded. We also know that during the Ottoman rule there were many Cypriot rebellions which were oppressed by the Ottomans.

Beyond that it depends on how you classify "genocide". We are not only talking about a very small population growth as GR says. We are actually talking about a reduction of the native population, since during their rule the Ottomans brought several 10s of thousands of Muslims to Cyprus, a number which is much more than the 6.200 people of population growth.

So how can this population reduction be explained? In Cyprus we always had some natural hazards like earthquakes and drought, but from what I know there was no major earthquake to wipe out significant parts of the population during Ottoman times, and drought could only affect the population during short periods, not over a 3 century period.

My queses is that their policies have let to starvation, and whenever some disaster occurred the Ottoman authorities did nothing to help the population and they just let them die. This coupled with the occasional massacre, is what probably let to population reduction. The other possible explanation is that the Ottoman numbers are completely wrong. Can you give any other possible explanation? When we initially discussed the issue another member "insan" said that maybe many Cypriots went to Greece after Greece gained its independence. Personally I don't think that happened with any significant number.

I don't know much about the Ottoman period.

I know that wars are bloody things and thamassacres were standard. That does not make any of the massacres good or acceptable. But not every war was a genocide. We cannot reduce imperial conquest and extermination to the same thing. Would you want the Cypriot state to be accused of genocide because there were massacres during conflicts it was involved in?

The massacres were grotesque, but they did not intend to destroy Cyprus or the Cypriots, they did not intend to exterminate the community, so no, it was not genocide. Frankly, I do not understand why "massacre" is insufficiently critical. Massacres are vile, dreadful, shameful things. They were not acts of genocide, but they were vile, dreadful, shameful massacres.

Yes, but the massacres alone can not explain the non growth of the population and on the contrary its reduction. Unless we are talking about massacres like that of Nicosia in 1571, with 10s of thousands of casualties, happening several times in each century.

Personally I think the reason is starvation because the Ottomans had heavy taxes on the Christians (double than those of the Muslims). In those times taxes were paid by giving part of your produce. The Ottomans were taking the produce of the Cypriot people and they didn't leave enough food for the Cypriots to feed themselves and their families. I think this is the most possible reason.

[Get Real!]

samarkeolog, the relevant thread is here...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0