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The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster website…

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Get Real! » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:41 am

CopperLine wrote:I'm sure this is a labour of love GR so don't want to diminish your efforts however your attempt to distinguish fictional from factual falls apart pretty rapidly. For example, in your question 'what constitutes credible evidence ?' you discount personal evidence or testimony on the grounds that it is "all prone to bias and unable to have been in more than one location at any given moment thereby having a very limited scope of events." I don't agree with this discounting but I get your point. But this dismissal of personal evidence follows a section on 'credible evidence' - i.e, sources of which you approve - in which you write "The many British documents made public; needless to remind that the British ruled Cyprus between 1878 and 1960, and were therefore in an excellent position to determine fact from fiction." How can you reconcile these two statements ? !! By definition most British sources were written by individual people who were not direct witnesses to events and who are as likely to transmit and record hearsay, general opinion, or the biases of imperial administrators as were any Cypriot who witnessed events first-hand.

Why should we accept as being more 'credible evidence' that which comes from an anglophone colonial officer than a grecophone or turkophone peasant whom he couldn't even understand and had no real interest in understanding ?

The British authority on Cyprus conducted investigations on all major incidents on the island (which involved asking locals from both sides etc) and would then proceed to write up meticulous reports to be passed on to the governor because he had a huge responsibility to ensure that Britain’s interests were looked after, and no doubt he would’ve been often called upon to explain one thing or the other to the then British governments, in fact during the EOKA days (1955..59), hardly a day went by when a Cyprus story didn’t make the British newspapers. Here’s an example of one such report of which I’ve managed to find a picture of the actual report itself!

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... ge5108.htm

I’ve got British reports from the 1930’s that include details like… some local throwing a stone at a passing military car or what have you, so nothing was too unimportant for them to jot down it seems! :D

Oh, and just one minor point : why are you trying to assert copyright on a list of links on your 'credible links' page when all are public domain and, as internet links, necessarily for public access ?

A copyright message is good practice on all pages of a website for legal reasons. Earlier in my career, I used to write and publish software so it became a habit early on to mark all my work intended to reach the masses. The credible links page copyright refers to the page design, layout, functionality, etc, itself and not the linked websites.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:48 am

Yialousa, I haven't got the time right now to look into this story because I need to improve the website but I will come round to this soon so I'll get back to you. Btw, you forgot your link... thanks.
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Postby kafenes » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:54 am

kurupetos wrote:
kafenes wrote:Well Done! Great site GR. Even though I believe Chirokitia is not the oldest settlement in Cyprus. Pareklisha/Shillourokambos is around 1500 years older.


Almost but I reckon Akrotiri Aetokremnos is the oldest. Anyway I have posted this months ago but once again:
http://www.asor.org/pubs/books-monographs/swiny.pdf
:wink:


Thanks for that link kurupetos, I knew the oldest bones were found at Aeorokremos, but I thought Shillourokambos was the oldest settlement. I had also read somewhere that at one stage the population of Cyprus was more then 4 million. Even though this figure sounds ridiculous, has anyone come across this anywhere? If this was true, there would have been some sort of obviouis evidence left behind.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:54 am

yialousa1971 wrote:GR,

Your link to the Treaty of Lausanne doesn't work on the article called
"In 1923 Turkish Cypriots abandoned the Turkish Nationality!"

You should have also included article 16 and 27:-

Article 16 of the treaty states:

"Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned."


Article 27 concludes:

"No power or jurisdiction in political, legislative or administrative matters shall be exercised outside Turkish territory by the Turkish Government or authorities, for any reason whatsoever, over the nationals of a territory placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of the other Powers signatory of the present Treaty, or over the nationals of a territory detached from Turkey.

It is understood that the spiritual attributions of the Moslem religious authorities are in no way infringed."

Here are the links for articles 16, 20, 21 and 27:-

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Lausanne.htm

And link for full version of the Treaty:-

http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/

Ok, I'll fix that broken link but I can't use your above websites for the treaty because they've got Greece oozing from them! :lol:

...and I'll also look into the articles you highlight to see if they are relevant.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:58 am

kafenes wrote:
kurupetos wrote:
kafenes wrote:Well Done! Great site GR. Even though I believe Chirokitia is not the oldest settlement in Cyprus. Pareklisha/Shillourokambos is around 1500 years older.


Almost but I reckon Akrotiri Aetokremnos is the oldest. Anyway I have posted this months ago but once again:
http://www.asor.org/pubs/books-monographs/swiny.pdf
:wink:


Thanks for that link kurupetos, I knew the oldest bones were found at Aeorokremos, but I thought Shillourokambos was the oldest settlement. I had also read somewhere that at one stage the population of Cyprus was more then 4 million. Even though this figure sounds ridiculous, has anyone come across this anywhere? If this was true, there would have been some sort of obviouis evidence left behind.

Kafenes, I’m aware of Aetokremos but the reason I stick to Choirokitia is because it’s the oldest full-blown “civilization” known in the whole region as opposed to cave dwellings and such.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:03 am

Yialloussa, and everyone else, please keep posting your findings and although I may not respond immediately I’ll keep coming back here to see what material can be used to improve any of the articles. Thanks people. :D
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:59 pm

Update… five new articles, debate links to the CF, and covered those pesky ads! :)


http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net
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Re: The Cyprus Problem Myth Buster website…

Postby Get Real! » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:18 pm

samarkeolog wrote:As for the 'Ottoman Genocide of the indigenous people of Cyprus', you quoted Lemkin's description of it as,

a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.


But then you observe that '[i]n three whole centuries of Ottoman rule, the population of Cyprus "grew" by just 6,200 people!!! If that’s not an Ottoman genocide of the indigenous people of Cyprus, I don’t know what is…' Low population growth is not proof of genocide. It is not genocide.

Proof of genocide requires proof of criminal intent, premeditation and deliberation, conspiracy to destroy the group. Do you have any evidence of intent? Do you have any evidence of anything? Please, please do not misuse genocide. You can make great criticisms of the Ottoman Empire. You do not need to accuse the Ottoman Empire of genocide of Cypriots.

But why have you ignored UN General Assembly’s resolution 260 A (III) of 1948, quoted in my article?
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Postby yialousa1971 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:23 am

Get Real! wrote:Yialousa, I haven't got the time right now to look into this story because I need to improve the website but I will come round to this soon so I'll get back to you. Btw, you forgot your link... thanks.


Why do you need a link, can't you take my word that it's all true. :wink:

Here you go but your probably say it's too Greek. :shock:

http://www.geocities.com/helleniccyprus/breifhistory_greekorigin.html
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Postby yialousa1971 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:49 am

Helen
By Euripides
Written 412 B.C.E
Translated by E. P. Coleridge


Dramatis Personae

TEUCER, a Greek warrior, who fought at Troy.

TEUCER
Who is lord and master of this fenced palace? The house is one I may compare to the halls of Plutus, with its royal bulwarks and towering buildings. Ha! great gods! what sight is here? I see the counterfeit of that fell murderous dame, who ruined me and all the Achaeans. May Heaven show its loathing for thee, so much dost thou resemble Helen! Were I not standing on a foreign soil, with this well-aimed shaft had worked thy death, thy reward for resembling the daughter of Zeus.

HELEN
No wonder then that thou dost bate Helen. But say, who art thou? Whence comest? By what name am I to call thee?

TEUCER
My name is Teucer; my sire was Telamon, and Salamis is the land that nurtured me.

TEUCER
A wanderer I, an exile from my native land.

TEUCER
My father Telamon. Couldst find a nearer and a dearer?

HELEN
But why? This case is surely fraught with woe.

TEUCER
The death of Ajax my brother at Troy was my ruin.

That they by self-inflicted wounds gave up the ghost because of their sister's shame. But enough of such talk! I have no wish to multiply my griefs. The reason of my coming to this royal palace was a wish to see that famous prophetess Theonoe. Do thou the means afford, that I from her may obtain an oracle how I shall steer a favourable course to the sea-girt shores of Cyprus; for there Apollo hath declared my home shall be, giving to it the name of Salamis, my island home, in honour of that fatherland across the main.

See here for full text:- http://classics.mit.edu/Euripides/helen.html

Salamis on Cyprus was founded by Teucer brother of the Trojan hero Ajax, Teucer giving the name of his homeland (the Greek island of Salamis) to Salamis on Cyprus. 8)
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