Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

http://www.agros.org.cy/english/index.shtm


The above link kindly posted by our Oracle points to a time when in 1692 AC a death virus was spreading around Cyprus causing deaths to 2/3rds of the population. How do the above population figures account for this? It surely must take a while for the numbers to reach the 'normal' levels.

Which links are to be trusted? Oracles 'History of Agros' or GR's 'Credible Evidences'?

[CopperLine]

I'm sure this is a labour of love GR so don't want to diminish your efforts however your attempt to distinguish fictional from factual falls apart pretty rapidly. For example, in your question 'what constitutes credible evidence ?' you discount personal evidence or testimony on the grounds that it is "all prone to bias and unable to have been in more than one location at any given moment thereby having a very limited scope of events." I don't agree with this discounting but I get your point. But this dismissal of personal evidence follows a section on 'credible evidence' - i.e, sources of which you approve - in which you write "The many British documents made public; needless to remind that the British ruled Cyprus between 1878 and 1960, and were therefore in an excellent position to determine fact from fiction." How can you reconcile these two statements ? !! By definition most British sources were written by individual people who were not direct witnesses to events and who are as likely to transmit and record hearsay, general opinion, or the biases of imperial administrators as were any Cypriot who witnessed events first-hand.

Why should we accept as being more 'credible evidence' that which comes from an anglophone colonial officer than a grecophone or turkophone peasant whom he couldn't even understand and had no real interest in understanding ?

Oh, and just one minor point : why are you trying to assert copyright on a list of links on your 'credible links' page when all are public domain and, as internet links, necessarily for public access ?

[yialousa1971]

Your article called The REAL ancestors of the Cypriots is factualy incorrect other than that I didn't find any fault as yet.

Thanks for checking it out and commenting but it helps to point out where you disagree. You can do it here because that article is not to be found on the CF so I can't direct you to a dedicated thread.

When the Mycenaeans (from south Greece) arrived on the western coast of Cyprus at around 1200BC, they came to TRADE their wares... so who do you suppose they came to trade with? Allowing common sense to prevail they traded with the descendants of the Choirokoitians… your TRUE indigenous ancestors!

Cyprus received two influxs of Mycenaeans, in the late Bronze age (1600-1050 BC) a major influx of immigrants arrived. Initially merchants and craftsmen and then, by the end of the 13th century BC, refugees: the Greek Achaeans, bearing the Mycenaean culture.

They were not a few traders that arrived as the above quote insinuates. Now please take note of the quotes below and in particular the highlighted parts.

As far back as ancient times, the classical Greek philosophers had explicitly defined the characteristics which, taken together, divide people into nationalities. Such characteristics are, according to Aristotle, the same language, the same religion and the same blood. Next to these, one could add the same customs, the same traditions, the same cultural elements etc.

All the above and more have been, through the centuries and still are to this day, common to the peoples of Greece and Cyprus.

The Greek language which is spoken in Cyprus to this day and constitutes a local dialect, contains a multitude of words and phrases which belong, having undergone no change, to the ancient Greek language of Homer. That is to say that today's Cypriots, in their day to day conversation, use dozens of Homeric words which have survived without change over the last 32 or so centuries.

The ancient names of towns, villages and sites are, in many cases, common to both Greece and Cyprus. Names such as Kyrenia, Dhekeleia, Dhymes, Pyla, Asinou, Avlona and many others, still in use on the island today, have existed since ancient times, and exactly the same names existed many centuries before Christ in the Peloponnese and other parts of Greece. Other placenames are derived from names of ancient Greek heroes, such as Akamas in western Cyprus, which took its name from that of the Athenian hero, the son of Theseus. A number of other placenames of Cyprus were also placenames of the Greek, during antiquity, area of Asia Minor. Take, for example, the name Soloi, shared by significant cities of both Cyprus and Cilicia in Asia Minor.

It is of the utmost significance that the ancient Greeks themselves considered the Cypriots as Hellenes, and that the Cypriots considered themselves as Greeks. The deities of the Greek Pantheon were those which had been primarily adored in Cyprus; Aphrodite and Apollo, Zeus and Hera, Athena, Dionysus, Hermes, Demeter etc. In all the archaeological sites of Cyprus, such as Salamis, Kition, Curium, Amathus, Paphos and Soloi one sees remnants of the adoration of Greek deities and a multitude of inscriptions in Greek confirms and indicates the extent of this adoration. Greek deities and Greek symbols are also encountered on the coins of ancient Cyprus. The ancient theatres and other edifices of Cyprus are also of a Greek character. Furthermore, many ancient Greek and Latin writers offer a spate of information on the Hellenic nature of ancient Cyprus, either through references to wars, significant philosophers, men of science (e.g. physicians), noted athletes, products etc. Among these Greek writers were Plutarch, Hesiodus, Pausanias, Isocrates, Aristotle, Herodotus, Diodorus, Galen, Euripides, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, Homer, Thucydides and many others, while of the Latin writers one can mention Pliny, Ovid, Cicero, Ammianus Marcellinus, Virgil, Horatio, Lactantius, Livy, Ennius, Terentius and others.

In addition many ancient inscriptions in Greece make reference to Cypriots and act as testaments to the close and eon-spanning links between the two countries. In the Acropolis museum of Athens, one can see a lengthy inscription through which tribute is paid by the Athenian authorities of the time to king Evagoras I of Cyprus (4th century BC) for his benefactory acts towards the Athenians. Inscriptions were also found in the Peloponnese and these refer to victories of Cypriot athletes in the Olympic Games. As is well known, only free Greeks took part in the Olympic Games of ancient Greece. The fact that Cypriots participated in these Games means that they considered themselves free Greeks and were, in return, accepted as such. During the golden age of Greece, many Cypriots established a career in Athens. Of all these, let us merely mention Zeno, the founder of the school of Stoic Philosophy, a Cypriot hailing from the city of Kition (today's Larnaca).

Following the battle of Plataeae in Greece (479 BC) at which the united forces of the Greeks routed the Persian invaders, the Greek forces were ordered to continue the struggle. The leader of the Greeks during that battle, a Spartan general by the name of Pausanias, was ordered to liberate "all Greek lands still under Persian domination". Pausanias, having received this order, sailed, according to Diodorus and corroborated by Thucydides, "first to Cyprus".

If one delves even further into the past, into the far reaches of History, one comes across references to Cyprus in the works of Homer who, among others, offers an excellent description of the breastplate of Agamemnon, the leader of the Greeks during the Trojan War ( Iliad, XI, 15 - 28 ), saying that the famous breastplate was a "hospitality gift" given to Agamemnon by king Kinyras of Cyprus. One can also encounter many museum artefacts which act as testament to the age-old relations between Cyprus and the Greek world (statuettes and deities, Cretan and Mycenaean vessels and other objects unearthed in Cyprus).

[Oracle]

http://www.agros.org.cy/english/index.shtm


The above link kindly posted by our Oracle points to a time when in 1692 AC a death virus was spreading around Cyprus causing deaths to 2/3rds of the population. How do the above population figures account for this? It surely must take a while for the numbers to reach the 'normal' levels.

Which links are to be trusted? Oracles 'History of Agros' or GR's 'Credible Evidences'?

I've already told you colander-cranium!
It takes little more than one generation ... certainly not THREE Centuries....

[Oracle]

Your article called The REAL ancestors of the Cypriots is factualy incorrect other than that I didn't find any fault as yet.

Thanks for checking it out and commenting but it helps to point out where you disagree. You can do it here because that article is not to be found on the CF so I can't direct you to a dedicated thread.

When the Mycenaeans (from south Greece) arrived on the western coast of Cyprus at around 1200BC, they came to TRADE their wares... so who do you suppose they came to trade with? Allowing common sense to prevail they traded with the descendants of the Choirokoitians… your TRUE indigenous ancestors!

Cyprus received two influxs of Mycenaeans, in the late Bronze age (1600-1050 BC) a major influx of immigrants arrived. Initially merchants and craftsmen and then, by the end of the 13th century BC, refugees: the Greek Achaeans, bearing the Mycenaean culture.

They were not a few traders that arrived as the above quote insinuates. Now please take note of the quotes below and in particular the highlighted parts.

As far back as ancient times, the classical Greek philosophers had explicitly defined the characteristics which, taken together, divide people into nationalities. Such characteristics are, according to Aristotle, the same language, the same religion and the same blood. Next to these, one could add the same customs, the same traditions, the same cultural elements etc.

All the above and more have been, through the centuries and still are to this day, common to the peoples of Greece and Cyprus.

The Greek language which is spoken in Cyprus to this day and constitutes a local dialect, contains a multitude of words and phrases which belong, having undergone no change, to the ancient Greek language of Homer. That is to say that today's Cypriots, in their day to day conversation, use dozens of Homeric words which have survived without change over the last 32 or so centuries.

The ancient names of towns, villages and sites are, in many cases, common to both Greece and Cyprus. Names such as Kyrenia, Dhekeleia, Dhymes, Pyla, Asinou, Avlona and many others, still in use on the island today, have existed since ancient times, and exactly the same names existed many centuries before Christ in the Peloponnese and other parts of Greece. Other placenames are derived from names of ancient Greek heroes, such as Akamas in western Cyprus, which took its name from that of the Athenian hero, the son of Theseus. A number of other placenames of Cyprus were also placenames of the Greek, during antiquity, area of Asia Minor. Take, for example, the name Soloi, shared by significant cities of both Cyprus and Cilicia in Asia Minor.

It is of the utmost significance that the ancient Greeks themselves considered the Cypriots as Hellenes, and that the Cypriots considered themselves as Greeks. The deities of the Greek Pantheon were those which had been primarily adored in Cyprus; Aphrodite and Apollo, Zeus and Hera, Athena, Dionysus, Hermes, Demeter etc. In all the archaeological sites of Cyprus, such as Salamis, Kition, Curium, Amathus, Paphos and Soloi one sees remnants of the adoration of Greek deities and a multitude of inscriptions in Greek confirms and indicates the extent of this adoration. Greek deities and Greek symbols are also encountered on the coins of ancient Cyprus. The ancient theatres and other edifices of Cyprus are also of a Greek character. Furthermore, many ancient Greek and Latin writers offer a spate of information on the Hellenic nature of ancient Cyprus, either through references to wars, significant philosophers, men of science (e.g. physicians), noted athletes, products etc. Among these Greek writers were Plutarch, Hesiodus, Pausanias, Isocrates, Aristotle, Herodotus, Diodorus, Galen, Euripides, Aristophanes, Aeschylus, Homer, Thucydides and many others, while of the Latin writers one can mention Pliny, Ovid, Cicero, Ammianus Marcellinus, Virgil, Horatio, Lactantius, Livy, Ennius, Terentius and others.

In addition many ancient inscriptions in Greece make reference to Cypriots and act as testaments to the close and eon-spanning links between the two countries. In the Acropolis museum of Athens, one can see a lengthy inscription through which tribute is paid by the Athenian authorities of the time to king Evagoras I of Cyprus (4th century BC) for his benefactory acts towards the Athenians. Inscriptions were also found in the Peloponnese and these refer to victories of Cypriot athletes in the Olympic Games. As is well known, only free Greeks took part in the Olympic Games of ancient Greece. The fact that Cypriots participated in these Games means that they considered themselves free Greeks and were, in return, accepted as such. During the golden age of Greece, many Cypriots established a career in Athens. Of all these, let us merely mention Zeno, the founder of the school of Stoic Philosophy, a Cypriot hailing from the city of Kition (today's Larnaca).

Following the battle of Plataeae in Greece (479 BC) at which the united forces of the Greeks routed the Persian invaders, the Greek forces were ordered to continue the struggle. The leader of the Greeks during that battle, a Spartan general by the name of Pausanias, was ordered to liberate "all Greek lands still under Persian domination". Pausanias, having received this order, sailed, according to Diodorus and corroborated by Thucydides, "first to Cyprus".

If one delves even further into the past, into the far reaches of History, one comes across references to Cyprus in the works of Homer who, among others, offers an excellent description of the breastplate of Agamemnon, the leader of the Greeks during the Trojan War ( Iliad, XI, 15 - 28 ), saying that the famous breastplate was a "hospitality gift" given to Agamemnon by king Kinyras of Cyprus. One can also encounter many museum artefacts which act as testament to the age-old relations between Cyprus and the Greek world (statuettes and deities, Cretan and Mycenaean vessels and other objects unearthed in Cyprus).

Good factual post Yialousa ...




The only difference is Cyprus is still not free from Turkish slavery ....

[denizaksulu]

http://www.agros.org.cy/english/index.shtmThe above link kindly posted by our Oracle points to a time when in 1692 AC a death virus was spreading around Cyprus causing deaths to 2/3rds of the population.  How do the above population figures account for this? It surely must take a while for the numbers to reach the 'normal' levels.Which links are to be trusted? Oracles 'History of Agros' or GR's 'Credible Evidences'?

I've already told you colander-cranium!    It takes little more than one generation  ... certainly not THREE Centuries....

I am sorry, it did not wash with me.As we say, 'külahıma anlat.'

Even Paphitis was worried about your 'faux pas'.

Even so, The Cypriots must have bred like rabbits.

Were the figures for the 'population' representing Orthodox and muslim?

[yialousa1971]

GR,

Your link to the Treaty of Lausanne doesn't work on the article called
"In 1923 Turkish Cypriots abandoned the Turkish Nationality!"

You should have also included article 16 and 27:-

Article 16 of the treaty states:

"Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned."


Article 27 concludes:

"No power or jurisdiction in political, legislative or administrative matters shall be exercised outside Turkish territory by the Turkish Government or authorities, for any reason whatsoever, over the nationals of a territory placed under the sovereignty or protectorate of the other Powers signatory of the present Treaty, or over the nationals of a territory detached from Turkey.

It is understood that the spiritual attributions of the Moslem religious authorities are in no way infringed."

Here are the links for articles 16, 20, 21 and 27:-

http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Lausanne.htm

And link for full version of the Treaty:-

http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/

[miltiades]

GR's effort in producing this work is admirable . Agree or disagree with contents is immaterial. His work is commendable and most certainly worthy of a praise.
Well done GR .

[kurupetos]

Well Done! Great site GR. Even though I believe Chirokitia is not the oldest settlement in Cyprus. Pareklisha/Shillourokambos is around 1500 years older.

Almost but I reckon Akrotiri Aetokremnos is the oldest. Anyway I have posted this months ago but once again:
http://www.asor.org/pubs/books-monographs/swiny.pdf

[bill cobbett]

GR's effort in producing this work is admirable . Agree or disagree with contents is immaterial. His work is commendable and most certainly worthy of a praise.
Well done GR .

OMG I feel feint...

No seriously, sterling and useful work. How many times have we all wasted time trying to find a link when, as ever when you google CY, you end up with loads of links to pictures of near naked babes on beaches.

Come on boys and girls - get your links, your most credible tit-bits, out for our GR.