Bananiot wrote:It has been getting extremely difficult to have a meaningful debate with Piratis. His one track mind will not allow any ifs and buts. Lately he is suggesting that the majority has the right to do anything it likes with the minority. In fact, this is what got us into this predicament but I challenge anyone to try to tell this to Piratis. When presented with facts about a concensus that was reached (Makarios said we won, on his arrival to Cyprus in 1959) Piratis claims that our arm was twisted and thus our signature does not count. I can not understand this mentality of blaming everything on the others, but I suppose it is a greek cypriot phenomenon. After signing the London Zurich agreements, a jubilant Makarios asked Karamanlis "did you really think that I would not sign it?". Karamanlis never forgave him, for Makarios basked in the glory and also held a bit back and whenever he was confronted with difficulties he would blame Karamanlis and Greece for twisting his arm to sign the agreements.
In all serious nations minorities are protected by strict laws (in fact all laws are made to safeguard the interests of the weak). In 1960 we decided that we would not stick to the agreements we signed but we would use them as a stepping stone for enosis. If the minority objected to this we would deal with it and to this effect the state (tragic) set up the paramilitary armies of Lyssarides, Yiorgadgis and Sampson that reigned terror on innocent people.
The kind of solution we are looking for today cannot but take into account the events which unfolded in 1963. We cannot just say, sorry! and start again from scratch. This is not how the world is run. Germany lost huge chunks of territory after losing two wars but today the Germans have learnt to live with this, after they apologised to the world. I am not saying that our wrong doings nearly approach the magnitude of the nazi terror but I am using this example in order to illustrate the point of how things work in the real world.
A compromise today is the best we can do and I take heart when I hear Turkish Cypriots, like Eirini-Baris and the other moderate and progressive friends of the forum who are willing to give peace another chance, for this is the only way to save our island. Thoughts like "you killed 1000's while we only killed 100's defending our rights" are only feeding the nationalist minautor that has reaped through the heart of Cyprus and still cries for more Cypriot blood. Enough with the nationalists, they have done their damage, they are the problem and they cannot be part of the solution.
No my friend. I never said that the majority can do
anything it likes. Democracy includes both, majority rule and minority rights.
I don't want to remove minority rights, but apparently you want to remove majority rule, and force in Cyprus an
undemocratic system.
The minority should be protected for the
100% of their human and democratic rights and also have any unique characteristics of this minority, such as language and religion, protected as well.
But the minority can not decide with whom our island will or will not unite. There is no such minority right. Some European countries united with the EU with majorities barely over 50%. Do you think that if Turkey is accepted to join the EU they will ask their Greek or Kurdish minority for a separate approval?
So no, I am not saying that the majority can do "anything", I am talking about
very specific things that we had every right to do.
Here is again the resolution about decolonization which clearly states that
"integration into an independent State" as one of "the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm
So we asked for nothing more than our rights on this island. How could it be fine for Cyprus to be part of the Ottoman or British empires, against the will of Cypriots, where Cypriots were mere subjects, and not OK for Cyprus to be part of a state that the Cypriots themselves democratically choose to belong and where Cypriots would be equal citizens???
The wars and conflicts were all started by the Turks with the aim to deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination. So if somebody should be punished for the suffering that those wars caused, those should be the Turks who started them, not the Cypriot people.
It is the Turks, like the Nazis, who invade other countries, install puppet regimes, and try to force their rule over others. In fact when the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia, they gave the exact same excuse that the Turks gave to invade Cyprus. To "protect their minority".
You are right about one point. We can capitulate to the invaders, accept their terms, become their slaves, and in this way we would have peace.
What I say is: Fuck that kind of peace. There are things in this life that are more important than peace, and they worth fighting for. Human rights, democracy and freedom.
And don't present yourself as an "anti-nationalist". You fully support the worst kind of imperialistic nationalism that exists. Just like those Greeks who cooperated with the Nazis during the German occupation of Greece. You are not any better than them. You think that a nation should surrender to the imperialists and not to fight for its freedom and rights. We are not like you.
We fight for our rights within our own nation, while you support the interests of foreign Imperialists on the expense of our rights. Does that make us "Nationalists" and you an "Imperialist"?
