Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Kifeas, you have a cheek!

I only hope the TCs will not take your nonsense literally, just like they have take those of Denktash and his so called realities on the ground, for there will be no solution in our lifetime, and the ones that will cry more bitterly will be themselves. While it is a fact of life that no occupier has stayed in Cyprus forever, and so will Turkey go one day, they will in the meanwhile see themselves being swallowed by mainland Turks and disappear from the face of earth as an entity. You are doing a bad service to them.

Do you need me to remind you once again what you wrote a couple of months ago, while mourning Papadopoulos's election loss? Have you forgotten your praise of Denktash, with whom you came to totally agree with about the form of solution? Isn't your idea of agreed partition (even on an 18% to 82% basis which you think legitimises your about turn) a knock out blow for the whole of this island?

You must be going through your very confused state again. I wonder, how far to the right will you end up this time?

[Piratis]

Kifeas, you have a cheek!

I only hope the TCs will not take your nonsense literally, just like they have take those of Denktash and his so called realities on the ground, for there will be no solution in our lifetime, and the ones that will cry more bitterly will be themselves. While it is a fact of life that no occupier has stayed in Cyprus forever, and so will Turkey go one day, they will in the meanwhile see themselves being swallowed by mainland Turks and disappear from the face of earth as an entity. You are doing a bad service to them.

Do you need me to remind you once again what you wrote a couple of months ago, while mourning Papadopoulos's election loss? Have you forgotten your praise of Denktash, with whom you came to totally agree with about the form of solution? Isn't your idea of agreed partition (even on an 18% to 82% basis which you think legitimises your about turn) a knock out blow for the whole of this island?

You must be going through your very confused state again. I wonder, how far to the right will you end up this time?

What you support is also partition with 2 differences:

1) The Turks would get to keep 29%, not 18%
2) The Turks would also have the power to veto and control the whole of Cyprus.

So what makes your version of partition any better in practice?. (and I am talking about essence here, not empty words)

[Bananiot]

What I support is bicommunal, bizonal federation with political quality of the two communities, meaning the substantial and meaningful participation in the organs of the common state.

[Murataga]

TCs are an 18% minority. The 1960 "agreements" were a result of blackmail and force.

The hard facts are that: (1) 1960 Agreements were recognized international agreements that established the very state which you claim to be a part of today; (2) these Agreements bared the signature of your elected leader; (3) they bared the signature of Greece. Do you deny any of these facts?

No.

Good for you.

Do you deny the facts that:
1) Our elected leader was forced and blackmailed in order to sign those "agreements"

Really? Help me out here with some unbiased concrete information as I try to come up with an answer: (1) In what way was he forced and what was he blackmailed with?; (2) According to the findings/verdict of which neutral official investigation and/or court/U.N. decision?; (3) Has he ever officially and precisely confessed that he was "forced and blackmailed in order to sign those "agreements""?

2) That you are the ones who violated and continue to violate those agreements? (the only thing we did was propose reforms that would bring democracy. Nothing wrong with proposing democratic reforms)

We had absolutely no problem abiding with the Agreements. Furthermore, I see no problem with you proposing what you considered to be right. The problem was your subsequent actions which amount to a breach of the constitution: preventing by force the attendance of the TCs to the government, nullifying their positions, and inviting the Greek troops by the thousands to the island (not to even mention the sheer violence that came with the package). These are well-documented in the U.N. records.

This is why we didn't have peace.

No, not really. Why we did not have peace is simply because you failed to honor your signature in those agreements.

You are the ones who failed. We proposed democratic reforms for the constitution of our country, as we had every right to do.

And again the problem was not proposing your opinions. It was committing crime for getting rejected on them.

Because you collaborated with foreigners in order to deny to the Cypriot people their right for freedom and self-determination and have unfair gains on our expense.

You, as one of the two communities of this island, do not have a right to hand this island over to Greece. You never did and you never will. We, the TCs, on the other hand have every right to resist your effort to hand this island to Greece. And that is exactly what we did. We are extremely proud of the cold knife we stabbed into the heart of your ENOSIS conquest. Thanks to our efforts, you can not even talk of it today.

Conquest is what the Turks did when they invaded Cyprus and enslaved and oppressed the Cypriot people for 3 centuries. The Cypriot people fought for their self-determination and freedom and the Cypriot people have the every right to democratically unite with whomever we like.
Yes, the Turks attacked us again and denied to the Cypriot people their freedom, but the struggle of the Cypriot people against the foreign invaders is not over. We will continue to fight for our self-determination for as long as it takes, and meanwhile you will continue to suffer the consequences of your crimes against us. Soon Turkey will suffer her first major consequence as well, when her EU accession process will end.

You are not the "Cypriot people". In fact there is no definition or use in the constitution of such a thing. You are ONE of the TWO communities of Cyprus. And you have no right to enforce decisions on the TC community. You, especially have no right to hand our property and citizenship over to Greece. Your attempt to do so gives us every right to defend ourselves.

As you have since learned: We do not capitulate, and we will never do so.

What we have since learned is that you can not be trusted with your word and/or signature, hence other measures are and will be (in any foreseeable future) necessary to uphold and enforce any agreement we might make with you.

There will be no agreement that will grand to your small minority any Ottoman style privileges on our expense. So don't hope for that. Just rot in the pseudo state until the time we will liberate our homeland from the foreign invaders.

There are no foreign invaders here. There are the TCs and whatever help we were able to gather to protect ourselves from your aggression.

[Piratis]

TCs are an 18% minority. The 1960 "agreements" were a result of blackmail and force.

The hard facts are that: (1) 1960 Agreements were recognized international agreements that established the very state which you claim to be a part of today; (2) these Agreements bared the signature of your elected leader; (3) they bared the signature of Greece. Do you deny any of these facts?

No.

Good for you.

Do you deny the facts that:
1) Our elected leader was forced and blackmailed in order to sign those "agreements"

Really? Help me out here with some unbiased concrete information as I try to come up with an answer: (1) In what way was he forced and what was he blackmailed with?; (2) According to the findings/verdict of which neutral official investigation and/or court/U.N. decision?; (3) Has he ever officially and precisely confessed that he was "forced and blackmailed in order to sign those "agreements""?

The Cypriots were blackmailed with the "McMillan Plan" that instead of giving self-determination to the Cypriot people, it would instead make Cyprus some common protectorate between UK,Turkey and Greece.
http://cyprus-conflict.org/materials/macmillanplan.html

The Turks had already attacked the Cypriots since 1958, and people were killed. The Cypriot people had no participation in the writing of those agreements. They were written by foreigners (British) and then it was demanded from Makarios to sign them without giving to him any better alternative.

If we liked those agreements then we wouldn't be making proposalf for reforms just 3 years later, would we?

2) That you are the ones who violated and continue to violate those agreements? (the only thing we did was propose reforms that would bring democracy. Nothing wrong with proposing democratic reforms)

We had absolutely no problem abiding with the Agreements. Furthermore, I see no problem with you proposing what you considered to be right. The problem was your subsequent actions which amount to a breach of the constitution: preventing by force the attendance of the TCs to the government, nullifying their positions, and inviting the Greek troops by the thousands to the island (not to even mention the sheer violence that came with the package). These are well-documented in the U.N. records.

There is no UN resolution condemning Cyprus for any wrong doing. All we made were proposals, and then responded to your attacks.

It is the TCs who attacked and the TCs who have been stockpiling weapons looking for an excuse to cause chaos. In fact they have been bringing weapons to Cyprus just months after those agreements were signed, and from 18th of October 1959 the Turkish ship Deniz was caught transferring weapons to the TC terrorists.

This is why we didn't have peace.

No, not really. Why we did not have peace is simply because you failed to honor your signature in those agreements.

You are the ones who failed. We proposed democratic reforms for the constitution of our country, as we had every right to do.

And again the problem was not proposing your opinions. It was committing crime for getting rejected on them.

And again, you are the ones who committed the crimes. The Turks have started all wars and conflicts in Cyprus. Right from the very first one in 1571, until the last one in 1974. Cypriots only responded to the Turkish attacks against us.

Because you collaborated with foreigners in order to deny to the Cypriot people their right for freedom and self-determination and have unfair gains on our expense.

You, as one of the two communities of this island, do not have a right to hand this island over to Greece. You never did and you never will. We, the TCs, on the other hand have every right to resist your effort to hand this island to Greece. And that is exactly what we did. We are extremely proud of the cold knife we stabbed into the heart of your ENOSIS conquest. Thanks to our efforts, you can not even talk of it today.

Conquest is what the Turks did when they invaded Cyprus and enslaved and oppressed the Cypriot people for 3 centuries. The Cypriot people fought for their self-determination and freedom and the Cypriot people have the every right to democratically unite with whomever we like.
Yes, the Turks attacked us again and denied to the Cypriot people their freedom, but the struggle of the Cypriot people against the foreign invaders is not over. We will continue to fight for our self-determination for as long as it takes, and meanwhile you will continue to suffer the consequences of your crimes against us. Soon Turkey will suffer her first major consequence as well, when her EU accession process will end.

You are not the "Cypriot people". In fact there is no definition or use in the constitution of such a thing. You are ONE of the TWO communities of Cyprus. And you have no right to enforce decisions on the TC community. You, especially have no right to hand our property and citizenship over to Greece. Your attempt to do so gives us every right to defend ourselves.

We are the Cypriot people and we have been so for long before you came to our island. You are not going to tell us who we are.

You are the ones who invaded our island in order to enslave Cypriots and force your will on us. What we fight for is nothing more than our freedom from the foreign invaders of your kind.

As you have since learned: We do not capitulate, and we will never do so.

What we have since learned is that you can not be trusted with your word and/or signature, hence other measures are and will be (in any foreseeable future) necessary to uphold and enforce any agreement we might make with you.

There will be no agreement that will grand to your small minority any Ottoman style privileges on our expense. So don't hope for that. Just rot in the pseudo state until the time we will liberate our homeland from the foreign invaders.

There are no foreign invaders here. There are the TCs and whatever help we were able to gather to protect ourselves from your aggression.

What you have there is 40.000 Turkish Troops, about 100.000 new Turkish Settlers brought to Cyprus the last decades, and a minority of Settlers from the previous Turkish colonization of our island (and only a tiny minority of real Cypriots). What is missing from the north part of Cyprus is the 100s of thousands of native Cypriots, who are the majority of that territory, and whom you ethnically cleansed in your attempt to Turkify our lands.

You are the aggressors who are trying to steal our lands. You are the ones who invaded Cyprus, we are not ones who invaded Turkey.

[Medman]

Piratis

You do make me laugh. So Greece or the Greek Cypriots had nothing to do with what went on in Cyprus before 1974. You're very quick to blame the Turks for everything making out that your own shit don't stink. You're a joke and I will no doubt get a witty response from you and you're other EOKA brothers. Even Markarios and other Greeks know you fucked up in your dream for Enosis. So the Greek inspired coup which outsted Markarios was know don't orchestrated by Turkey? You talk about war crimes and Sampson only got a slap across the knuckles for his part didn't he? Greeks were killing Greeks as well.

[Piratis]

Piratis

You do make me laugh. So Greece or the Greek Cypriots had nothing to do with what went on in Cyprus before 1974. You're very quick to blame the Turks for everything making out that your own shit don't stink. You're a joke and I will no doubt get a witty response from you and you're other EOKA brothers. Even Markarios and other Greeks know you fucked up in your dream for Enosis. So the Greek inspired coup which outsted Markarios was know don't orchestrated by Turkey? You talk about war crimes and Sampson only got a slap across the knuckles for his part didn't he? Greeks were killing Greeks as well.

I will not respond to your personal attacks.

The coup in Cyprus was a coup like the many that happened in Turkey. No TC was killed during the coup. Any TCs that were killed in 74 were killed during the Turkish invasion and after TCs and Turkey started to kill GCs by the 1000s.

Sampson went to jail for several years. The Generals of the Athens junta are still in jail. What did you do with your war criminals, like Ecevit, who was responsible for the murder of far more innocent people than Sampson was? Absolutely nothing!

And I never said that GCs had "nothing to do" with what went on. We participate in the conflicts as well. What I am saying here, which is a fact, is that all the wars and conflicts were started by the Turks, with the aim to deny to the Cypriot people their self-determination.

Did you know that Nazim Hikmet, the famous Turkish poet, back in the 50s advised the TCs to join the GCs in the struggle for freedom and against imperialism?

Unfortunately the TCs instead of joining the rest of Cypriots they joined the imperialists , and the inter-communal conflict started. What we had in the 60s and the 70s, which continues until today, is basically that conflict which started back then.

Why* was it so hard for TCs to respect democracy and the self-determination rights of Cypriots? How could it be fine for them if Cyprus was under foreign empires against the will of the Cypriot people, but not fine if Cyprus was part of a Republic that Cypriots choose to unite with? Rhodes island, which also has a Turkish minority, united with Greece in 1947 and not a single nose broke over it. The self-determination right of the Rhodian people was respected, and that was that. No conflicts, no casualties, nothing of that sort.

*The answer is the divide and rule of the Colonialists. The recipe for divide and rule is to offer to a minority privileges and rewards in order to bring this minority on the side of the imperialists and turn them against the majority of the population. This is exactly what the British did to Cyprus, and the reason that the inter-communal conflict started. Today the TCs continue to side with foreigners expecting rewards and privileges on the expense of every other Cypriot, and that is why the conflict continues.

[Bananiot]

Piratis

The Cypriots were blackmailed with the "McMillan Plan" that instead of giving self-determination to the Cypriot people, it would instead make Cyprus some common protectorate between UK, Turkey and Greece.

When Piratis says "self determination" he means enosis of course but his democratic spirit will not allow him to spill the beans. Let us hear it straight from the horses mouth. This is how Makarios explained it:

"Ελέχθη ακόμη ότι το περιεχόμενον του κατατεθέντος σχεδίου ψηφίσματος έπρεπε να ομιλή σαφώς περί αυτοδιαθέσεως-ενώσεως και ότι, εν άλλοις λόγοις, με "ανοικτά βιβλία" έπρεπε να μεταβώμεν εις τα Ηνωμένα Έθνη. Δεν παρουσιάσθημεν ενώπιον των Ηνωμένων Εθνών υπό απατηλόν προσωπείον. Αλλά το περιεχόμενον των "βιβλίων" μας, δια να είναι κατανοητόν έπρεπε να διατυπωθή εις γλώσσαν κατανοητήν, εις την γλώσσαν και την ορολογίαν των Ηνωμένων Εθνών. Και ο μεν όρος "αυτοδιάθεσις εφαρμόζεται δια μη αυτοκυβερνούμενα εδάφη, η δε λέξης "ένωσις" είναι άγνωστος εις την ορολογίαν του Διεθνούς Οργανισμού, αλλά και θέμα μη εμπίπτον εντός της αρμοδιότητός του".

Perhaps Piratis can explain to our readers that Makarios was using a term (as he confesses above) tactically, in order to fool the international community and the Turkish Cypriot community into believing that we did not consider to do anything sinister when (such as union with another country) self determination was granted to us.

The 29th of February, by the way, is another important day in our history. The one they do not teach at school of course. On this day in 1956, Lenox Boyd, Colonial Secretary of Great Britain, arrived in Cyprus to sign an agreement with Makarios ending the EOKA struggle and giving Cyprus partial self determination and a good constitution with excellent prospects for the future. Makarios, despite prior agreement, went for more in the presence of boyd and further more, he authorised EOKA to greet Boyd with a series of explosions. Lenox Boyd left in disgust and he utterred the now renoun "God save your prople".

You all know the rest ...

[observer]

Piratis wrote

Did you know that Nazim Hikmet, the famous Turkish poet, back in the 50s advised the TCs to join the GCs in the struggle for freedom and against imperialism?

This is all part pf the GC selective memory or myth making. In the 1950s GCs were not fighting for freedom against imperialism, they were fighting to be part of Greece.

If GCs had trully been fighting for independence then TCs may well have joined them, but no TC wanted to be part of Greece.

[Piratis]

Freedom from imperialism = self-determination = we democratically choose what to do with our island instead of having foreigners imposing on us their will.

The UN resolution about decolonization clearly defines "integration into an independent State" as one of the three "legitimate options of full self-government"

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

So yes, if we democratically decide we can join with whomever we want, be it Greece, EU or China (as long as the other party of the union accepts as well)

That is exactly what freedom and self-determination means. And the Cypriot people have been denied their freedom and self-determination by the foreign imperialists.