Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

May a Peaceful future have no sides.

Our hearts need to be large enough to forgive and bring everyone together.

I am convinced that when the leaders of the world understand Cyprus, they will be able to come to grips with the rest of human tragedy that is playing itself out all over the world right at this moment as we all debate our intellectual analysis of the past.

The size of a good heart needs to include the ones who we believe have failed us.

Oh..NO NO NO....Stop talking about big hearts,undertanding,forgiveness etc...People on this site do not want to even think about such concepts...Here it is black and white...Our side is right,the other side is wrong,definitely...No compromise,compassion or empahty is possible...
Cyprus is Turkish and shall remain Turkish forever...There will be no solution till the "balance of power" changes...Then the remaining 63% of "occupied" Cyprus shall be liberated and returned to their rightful rulers...Thus spoke Birkibrisli!

Bir, most GCs accept that we have made mistakes and have contributed to the problem of Cyprus. Where GCs get fed up is when TCs repeat the past to justify their demands, as if only GCs should be punished for their mistakes. Where is the balance? It is clear to any objective observer that the GCs have been bending over backwards to compromise for years. A BBF is a huge compromise for us. Rotating presidency is a massive offer our President has made. Allowing thousands of settlers to stay is another. Allowing a TC constituent state and coastline to be larger than your population share is a further example. These concessions are so great that many GCs find them unacceptable, perhaps in a similar way that TCs would if their leadership agreed that the veto be removed. The fact is the TCs just want everything their own way. GCs aren't even allowed to prey in churches in the north on occasions.

You may be able to justify Turkey initially invading Cyprus, but only to restore the constitution as a guarantor. The subsequent actions and continuing occupation is illegal and this will not change. TCs need to start considering what GCs want in a more constructive manner, and stop expecting to reap the spoils of winning a war, which is how your leadership is currently behaving.

You used to be a balanced man Bir. Bitterness has got the better of you.

What got the better of me was not "bitterness",dear Simon...
It was being told time and time again that I was an Ottoman remnant,my pain and loss did not count,that I was wrong to oppose Enosis with Greece,and I was a terrorist because I had the audacity to suggest that TMT was originally formed to protect the TCs from what was the expected onslought from the EOKA and GC paramilitaries....

I have not written one word here in the past 6 years that I would not stand by now...I am simply practising the motto "If you can't beat them join them!"...If there is no empathy and compassion and respect and understanding for the TC plight,then there will be none for the GC plight...Fair is fair...If Cyprus is a Greek island and has always been so,then there are no Cypriots,no Cypriot nation,and my very being is in question...I have no other option but to return fire with fire...

If everything that is touched by the Greek culture and civilisation shall reamain forever Greek,then everything that is touched by the Turkish culture and civilisation shall remain Turkish...If we are playing the game of "waiting for the balance of power to change" to resort to military action,then I will go along with that and accept that "might is right",so be it...You get my drift???

Bir, you're talking nonsense. Of course your pain and loss counts, like everyone else's, and of course there is empathy with the genuine TCs from most reasonable GCs. You will find many on this forum. However, if you choose to be dissuaded by individual comments and follow the Zan, VP path etc, then you are no better than those GCs you complain about. If you can't beat them, join them, you say. So now you are one of them, what are you complaining about? Through bitterness, you have given up and are now a partitionist. At least you have now cleared that up for me. Like I said in my previous post, the only way forward is compromise, and stop continued harping about the past. I listed GC compromises, which show empathy and understanding for the TC position, it is about time the TCs demonstrated the same.

[BirKibrisli]

May a Peaceful future have no sides.

Our hearts need to be large enough to forgive and bring everyone together.

I am convinced that when the leaders of the world understand Cyprus, they will be able to come to grips with the rest of human tragedy that is playing itself out all over the world right at this moment as we all debate our intellectual analysis of the past.

The size of a good heart needs to include the ones who we believe have failed us.

Oh..NO NO NO....Stop talking about big hearts,undertanding,forgiveness etc...People on this site do not want to even think about such concepts...Here it is black and white...Our side is right,the other side is wrong,definitely...No compromise,compassion or empahty is possible...
Cyprus is Turkish and shall remain Turkish forever...There will be no solution till the "balance of power" changes...Then the remaining 63% of "occupied" Cyprus shall be liberated and returned to their rightful rulers...Thus spoke Birkibrisli!

Bir, most GCs accept that we have made mistakes and have contributed to the problem of Cyprus. Where GCs get fed up is when TCs repeat the past to justify their demands, as if only GCs should be punished for their mistakes. Where is the balance? It is clear to any objective observer that the GCs have been bending over backwards to compromise for years. A BBF is a huge compromise for us. Rotating presidency is a massive offer our President has made. Allowing thousands of settlers to stay is another. Allowing a TC constituent state and coastline to be larger than your population share is a further example. These concessions are so great that many GCs find them unacceptable, perhaps in a similar way that TCs would if their leadership agreed that the veto be removed. The fact is the TCs just want everything their own way. GCs aren't even allowed to prey in churches in the north on occasions.

You may be able to justify Turkey initially invading Cyprus, but only to restore the constitution as a guarantor. The subsequent actions and continuing occupation is illegal and this will not change. TCs need to start considering what GCs want in a more constructive manner, and stop expecting to reap the spoils of winning a war, which is how your leadership is currently behaving.

You used to be a balanced man Bir. Bitterness has got the better of you.

What got the better of me was not "bitterness",dear Simon...
It was being told time and time again that I was an Ottoman remnant,my pain and loss did not count,that I was wrong to oppose Enosis with Greece,and I was a terrorist because I had the audacity to suggest that TMT was originally formed to protect the TCs from what was the expected onslought from the EOKA and GC paramilitaries....

I have not written one word here in the past 6 years that I would not stand by now...I am simply practising the motto "If you can't beat them join them!"...If there is no empathy and compassion and respect and understanding for the TC plight,then there will be none for the GC plight...Fair is fair...If Cyprus is a Greek island and has always been so,then there are no Cypriots,no Cypriot nation,and my very being is in question...I have no other option but to return fire with fire...

If everything that is touched by the Greek culture and civilisation shall reamain forever Greek,then everything that is touched by the Turkish culture and civilisation shall remain Turkish...If we are playing the game of "waiting for the balance of power to change" to resort to military action,then I will go along with that and accept that "might is right",so be it...You get my drift???

Bir, you're talking nonsense. Of course your pain and loss counts, like everyone else's, and of course there is empathy with the genuine TCs from most reasonable GCs. You will find many on this forum. However, if you choose to be dissuaded by individual comments and follow the Zan, VP path etc, then you are no better than those GCs you complain about. If you can't beat them, join them, you say. So now you are one of them, what are you complaining about? Through bitterness, you have given up and are now a partitionist. At least you have now cleared that up for me. Like I said in my previous post, the only way forward is compromise, and stop continued harping about the past. I listed GC compromises, which show empathy and understanding for the TC position, it is about time the TCs demonstrated the same.

Simon,
I am not a partitionist...I always believed,and still believe,that the survival of the unique TC culture and traditions depend on reunification.
But if,after all that happened,I am told that Cyprus is a Greek island,and history since 1571 does not count,and Enosis with Greece has effectively taken place via the EU,there is no Cypriot people or nation,only Greeks living in Cyprus,that gives me no other option but to become a Turk living in Cyprus...Surely you must see that...If that is the bitterness you are talking about sure,I am very bitter...I came here with open heart and mind showing a lot of empathy and compassion for the GC plight...You seem to remember some of my earlier posts...With a few notable exceptions,none of my empathy and compassion was returned...I was told I was a thief trying to justify TC and Turkish gains,and a traitor for not embracing the GC cause 100%...I was an Ottoman remnant who ought to piss off from Cyprus and return to my motherland!I could choose to disappear from this forum,I suppose,and let the hate and war mongers carry on as usual...I have decided instead to stick around and try to show people how absurd some of their arguments are by seemingly joining the natuionalists and presenting the other side's point of view...Those who know me well know where I am coming from...If these shock tactics dont work nothing will...Cyprus is Turkish! it will always remain so...Bring on the war,let us liberate the rest of our country! All Greeks out of Cyprus back to their motherland..Power to the mighty!!!! The right is on our side...We are the chosen people!!! We shall not be defeated!!!

[wyoming cowboy]

Bir, we have spoken on some occasions, and i believe you when you say that you want a unitary state as a solution to the cyprus issue, we few that are left that remember cyprus as it was and had the potential to be, the dark clouds have not receded for us, and maybe they never will. You cannot subject the Gc as a whole to infinite punishment for the actions of a few. The Annan plan would have subjected the Gc population as second class citizens in their own country, no rights of appeal, no rights to their ancestral properties, no say in how their countyr would be lead. To have a nation where there is a majority and minority, where the majority enjoys its rights as a majority and the minority enjoys its rights as a minority, is not out of the question. It happens here in the usa, every day. Not too long ago a black man could not eat next to a white man in some states or had to ride in the back of the bus or stand up for a white man and give up his seat. Treacherous and unfair, through cooperation and good will, things have changed. A black president, PHD african american students, leaders of large corporations etc. etc.. There are instances where there is violent ethnic crime, murder, rape etc... but it doesnt mean that all the advances have to be thrown in the garbage for these instances....And if there ever is a solution to the Cyprus problem violent ethnic crimes will occur also, these are facts. The Tc are under the impression that they can guarantee their security 100 percent through discrimination and separation of the two groups.......That is fundementally wrong....The only way Cyprus can find peace in its future is through intergration not separation...You would be surprised to find out that in the Northern American states where there wasnt a forced intergration like in the South after the american civil war, that most hate ethnic crimes are being committed in these northern states, because of separation. If you are familiar with the NBA and Labron James the main reason he left Cleveland,Ohio was because of the discrimination he felt, he choose to go to a southern state Florida to play out his career. Im sure you can see that denying a Gc his rights living in the Tc constituent state would cause severe problems.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, we have spoken on some occasions, and i believe you when you say that you want a unitary state as a solution to the cyprus issue, we few that are left that remember cyprus as it was and had the potential to be, the dark clouds have not receded for us, and maybe they never will. You cannot subject the Gc as a whole to infinite punishment for the actions of a few. The Annan plan would have subjected the Gc population as second class citizens in their own country, no rights of appeal, no rights to their ancestral properties, no say in how their countyr would be lead. To have a nation where there is a majority and minority, where the majority enjoys its rights as a majority and the minority enjoys its rights as a minority, is not out of the question. It happens here in the usa, every day. Not too long ago a black man could not eat next to a white man in some states or had to ride in the back of the bus or stand up for a white man and give up his seat. Treacherous and unfair, through cooperation and good will, things have changed. A black president, PHD african american students, leaders of large corporations etc. etc.. There are instances where there is violent ethnic crime, murder, rape etc... but it doesnt mean that all the advances have to be thrown in the garbage for these instances....And if there ever is a solution to the Cyprus problem violent ethnic crimes will occur also, these are facts. The Tc are under the impression that they can guarantee their security 100 percent through discrimination and separation of the two groups.......That is fundementally wrong....The only way Cyprus can find peace in its future is through intergration not separation...You would be surprised to find out that in the Northern American states where there wasnt a forced intergration like in the South after the american civil war, that most hate ethnic crimes are being committed in these northern states, because of separation. If you are familiar with the NBA and Labron James the main reason he left Cleveland,Ohio was because of the discrimination he felt, he choose to go to a southern state Florida to play out his career. Im sure you can see that denying a Gc his rights living in the Tc constituent state would cause severe problems.

Hi,WC...

You don't have to convince me that unification and integration is the best solution for the Cyprus problem...You need to convince the majority of the TCs that the right lessons have been learnt from the past,and those terrible mistakes will not be repeated...You cannot do that by denying or minimising the TC plight,by rewriting history,and by throwing around insults like confetti,and insisting that Cyprus IS a Greek island...That is like a red rug to a bull,and without understanding and appreciating that fact,you have no chance of winning the hearts and minds of the TC community both in Cyprus and in the diaspora...It is not realistic to expect the TCs to run back to GC arms without safeguards to prevent the repeat of history.We need to come to some sort of BBF agreement to break the deadlock,and stop the status quo from becoming the de facto solution...Those GC forumers here who are insisting on their maximalist demands are only bringing the permanent Partition one step closer with every passing year...You guys need to start talking up the necessity to find a realistic solution soon...Wringing your hands with glee at the possibility of the TCs losing their unique identity and culture will make every one of us TCs here a born-again Turkish nationalist...Then we will have no one wanting reunification and integration...

[wyoming cowboy]

Bir,

Not living in Cyprus, but looking at the situation from a far and distant place, these two peoples are very far away from each other as it is. The older generation of Gc have memories of the 74 brutal invasion by Turkey the newer
generation of Gc have the vision of solomou climbing a flagpole and getting shot. From your perspective i can assume that your memories of a united Cyprus are just as brutal.

Both sides are on the defensive and have been for a very long time, realistically speaking its impossible for them to step up and awknowledge their crimes. Turkey and Tc have been conditioning themselves to think that the 74 invasion was a "peace operation" where Turkey invaded Cyprus while tc were being massacred throughout Cyprus. Pictures were being shown and still are shown where tc kids are giving the turkish soldiers flowers and water while they were invading Cyprus.. From the Gc side, the turkish soldiers were killing, raping and pillaging everything in their path. Kids were being lined up and executed. Unarmed soldiers and civilians were bayoneted and their bodies burned. People lost their homes and were ethnically cleansed.....

And after 36 years where both ethnic groups have suffered, and both have been reinforced whith the images of each other, you want to continue to reinforce these images in a solution, instead of wiping the slate clean and moving forward.

Living in a multiethnic society for 36 years(usa) i have seen the changes in attitude and perceptions change. These changes came from equality and civil rights enforcement. The stories and plight of each ethnic group will be explained through other means. Punishment is irrelevant at this point for each individual act of brutality each side committed.

[quattro]

Bir if you cannot forgive and have a big heart i feel only pity for you dear stay in AUS and leave us to solve it the best way we can we are here living the problem you are not.

I have a bigger heart than you can ever imagine,dear quattro...
But one sided empathy and compassion are not enough to solve our problem...don't worry,I have resigned my self to living out my life in exile...As to solving the problem amoungst yourselves,I can only wish you luck...Just look at some of the p[osters on this forum and multiply that by thousands out there,and you will understand why there will never be a solution...Apart from the status quo that is...

bir kibrisli yours username said it all exactly what i want for cyprus but if we dont put the past behind us and also put aside the "motherlands" ,and seat us Cypriots to solve it believe me nothing will happen except from the status quo. ........................................Kıbrıslı için bir Kıbrıs

[Simon]

Bir,

Not living in Cyprus, but looking at the situation from a far and distant place, these two peoples are very far away from each other as it is. The older generation of Gc have memories of the 74 brutal invasion by Turkey the newer
generation of Gc have the vision of solomou climbing a flagpole and getting shot. From your perspective i can assume that your memories of a united Cyprus are just as brutal.

Both sides are on the defensive and have been for a very long time, realistically speaking its impossible for them to step up and awknowledge their crimes. Turkey and Tc have been conditioning themselves to think that the 74 invasion was a "peace operation" where Turkey invaded Cyprus while tc were being massacred throughout Cyprus. Pictures were being shown and still are shown where tc kids are giving the turkish soldiers flowers and water while they were invading Cyprus.. From the Gc side, the turkish soldiers were killing, raping and pillaging everything in their path. Kids were being lined up and executed. Unarmed soldiers and civilians were bayoneted and their bodies burned. People lost their homes and were ethnically cleansed.....

And after 36 years where both ethnic groups have suffered, and both have been reinforced whith the images of each other, you want to continue to reinforce these images in a solution, instead of wiping the slate clean and moving forward.

Living in a multiethnic society for 36 years(usa) i have seen the changes in attitude and perceptions change. These changes came from equality and civil rights enforcement. The stories and plight of each ethnic group will be explained through other means. Punishment is irrelevant at this point for each individual act of brutality each side committed.

Good post. Beat me to it.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir,

Not living in Cyprus, but looking at the situation from a far and distant place, these two peoples are very far away from each other as it is. The older generation of Gc have memories of the 74 brutal invasion by Turkey the newer
generation of Gc have the vision of solomou climbing a flagpole and getting shot. From your perspective i can assume that your memories of a united Cyprus are just as brutal.

Both sides are on the defensive and have been for a very long time, realistically speaking its impossible for them to step up and awknowledge their crimes. Turkey and Tc have been conditioning themselves to think that the 74 invasion was a "peace operation" where Turkey invaded Cyprus while tc were being massacred throughout Cyprus. Pictures were being shown and still are shown where tc kids are giving the turkish soldiers flowers and water while they were invading Cyprus.. From the Gc side, the turkish soldiers were killing, raping and pillaging everything in their path. Kids were being lined up and executed. Unarmed soldiers and civilians were bayoneted and their bodies burned. People lost their homes and were ethnically cleansed.....

And after 36 years where both ethnic groups have suffered, and both have been reinforced whith the images of each other, you want to continue to reinforce these images in a solution, instead of wiping the slate clean and moving forward.

Living in a multiethnic society for 36 years(usa) i have seen the changes in attitude and perceptions change. These changes came from equality and civil rights enforcement. The stories and plight of each ethnic group will be explained through other means. Punishment is irrelevant at this point for each individual act of brutality each side committed.

I find nothing in this post to argue against...It describes very well the reality..But...it leaves us with the question 'where to from here'...It is easy to say 'wipe the slate clean and move forward' if you are the majority,and have held the strings of state power for all this time...It would take an enormous amount of trust and faith and risktaking for the part of the TCs...The RoC government has given them no incentives or motivation to do that...Hence we are stuck with the status quo forever...

[BirKibrisli]

Bir if you cannot forgive and have a big heart i feel only pity for you dear stay in AUS and leave us to solve it the best way we can we are here living the problem you are not.

I have a bigger heart than you can ever imagine,dear quattro...
But one sided empathy and compassion are not enough to solve our problem...don't worry,I have resigned my self to living out my life in exile...As to solving the problem amoungst yourselves,I can only wish you luck...Just look at some of the p[osters on this forum and multiply that by thousands out there,and you will understand why there will never be a solution...Apart from the status quo that is...

bir kibrisli yours username said it all exactly what i want for cyprus but if we dont put the past behind us and also put aside the "motherlands" ,and seat us Cypriots to solve it believe me nothing will happen except from the status quo. ........................................Kıbrıslı için bir Kıbrıs

Unification is also what I want for our motherland,but you are right,dear quattro,we are stuck with the status quo...This will result in total assimilation of the TCs into the Turkish society,and 1Million "new' TCs breathing down GC necks for a long time to come...Unless we can deal with the past effectively and find a compromise solution soon...This will essentially mean some form of BBF,as the TCs will never accept to dismantle the trnc entirely...And given the past bloody events,no one can reasonably expect them to do so...The ball is entirely in the GC court!

[repulsewarrior]

...please read my manifesto.