Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

This post is about the Fallacy of "Middle Ground", otherwise known as the "Fallacy of Moderation". This is the fallacy that the middle between two opposing positions must necessarily be the truth. You can read about this fallacy here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... round.html

What is the truth is what is supported by solid historical facts. Subscribing to the "middle ground" practice only encourages extremism, since by making a more extreme position one can move the "truth" closer to his side.

The "middle ground" is even more dangerous when we are talking about governing systems and principles. If on one side we have supporters of human rights, democracy and equality among citizens, and on the other side those who favor undemocratic systems, derogations from human rights, and segregation, you really can't just accept the "middle ground", since the middle ground in this case is clearly wrong.

Accepting the middle ground doesn't make you progressive. If you accept that democracy is not necessary, that human rights can be compromised, that segregation and discriminations based on ethnicity are acceptable, in order to fall in the "middle ground", you are not progressive at all, you are in fact regressive and you are only making the Fallacy of Moderation.

But it gets even worst with a few people. For these people the "Fallacy of Moderation" is also known as the "Feasible". They are willing to accept whatever anachronism some others want to impose, and by accepting all those anachronisms that take us back to the middle ages and the Ottoman era, those people believe they are supposedly "progressive"

The progressive people are not those who make compmomises on things like democracy and human rights, progressive people are not those who accept segregation and racist discriminations.

Progressive people are people like Martin Luther King, who made no compromises for what is right and just, who fought against racist descriminations and segregation and who didn't just accept what was "feasible" .

We support progress and only progress, and we will not allow any "Fallacious Moderates" to surrender our rights and drag Cyprus back to the middle ages.

[bill cobbett]

Absolutely spot on P.

I too have never agreed with the view that we should be prepared to compromise, and to try and find the middle ground because it is the "progressive" thing to do. It isn't progress, it's a step backwards, based usually on an overstatement of the "realities on the ground" and the frustration of the past 34 years. What realities are these anyway? Are we to respect the presence of an illegal army of occupation? Are we to respect the murder of thousands of CYs in 74? Are we to respect the theft of our lands? Are we to respect all of this? It is absolutely appalling that some here and those currently in power in the RoC would seem to do so by encouraging these negotiations and by taking part in them by sitting down and negotiating with a regime that doesn't show much understanding of some pretty basic human values. Some here tell us that we should meet the thieving, murderous basxxtards half-way. Basxxxrds who from the very start of the present round of negotiations have insisted that their bright new vision of the future is based on the overwhelmingly rejected, democracy ignoring, human rights bashing, Anon Plan.

Things like human rights are fundamentally non-negotiable. We all enjoy them by right. No one has given them to us, they are ours as of right. There are times however when these rights come in to peril, when they are challenged. This is one of those times when the really progressive amongst us are prepared to stand up for our rights and the rights of others.

It can seem pretty tempting to the concessionists (and I do respect that they do it from the best of motives) amongst us to try and find this curious middle ground but the real situation is that it doesn't exist cos there's no such thing as half a human right, no such thing as respecting A's property but not B's, no such thing as a partly free press/media, a part democracy or building a new state partly on someone else's land.

In any event we are not dealing with honourable men (or women) here. We are dealing with the heirs of the murdering Jerkish Army who want to hang on to as much of the illegal spoils of war that they can negotiate for.

If the concessionists want a model, let them go and look at the other two dozen or so countries of the EU and there they will see real progress by really progressive people who haven't and wouldn't dream of compromising human rights and other personal freedoms. There they will see that things can only be all or nothing; there's no half-way house.

[Murataga]

This post is about the Fallacy of "Middle Ground", otherwise known as the "Fallacy of Moderation". This is the fallacy that the middle between two opposing positions must necessarily be the truth. You can read about this fallacy here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... round.html

What is the truth is what is supported by solid historical facts. Subscribing to the "middle ground" practice only encourages extremism, since by making a more extreme position one can move the "truth" closer to his side.

The "middle ground" is even more dangerous when we are talking about governing systems and principles. If on one side we have supporters of human rights, democracy and equality among citizens, and on the other side those who favor undemocratic systems, derogations from human rights, and segregation, you really can't just accept the "middle ground", since the middle ground in this case is clearly wrong.

Accepting the middle ground doesn't make you progressive. If you accept that democracy is not necessary, that human rights can be compromised, that segregation and discriminations based on ethnicity are acceptable, in order to fall in the "middle ground", you are not progressive at all, you are in fact regressive and you are only making the Fallacy of Moderation.

But it gets even worst with a few people. For these people the "Fallacy of Moderation" is also known as the "Feasible". They are willing to accept whatever anachronism some others want to impose, and by accepting all those anachronisms that take us back to the middle ages and the Ottoman era, those people believe they are supposedly "progressive"

The progressive people are not those who make compmomises on things like democracy and human rights, progressive people are not those who accept segregation and racist discriminations.

Progressive people are people like Martin Luther King, who made no compromises for what is right and just, who fought against racist descriminations and segregation and who didn't just accept what was "feasible" .

We support progress and only progress, and we will not allow any "Fallacious Moderates" to surrender our rights and drag Cyprus back to the middle ages.

There is no political, historical or legal substance granting you majority rule over the TCs in Cyprus. It would be no different than asking for majority rule in the Aegean, or in Thrace, or in Asia and calling it "democracy". In fact the U.N. and the rest of the world (including your leaders today) acknowledge that the relationship between the TCs and GCs is that of two communities with political equality defined per U.N..

We always have been, are and always will be ready/willing to defend ourselves from being subject to your rule. We were more than ready for it in 1960. However, a compromise was made and a partnership government was formed. It is very important that you understand this aspect: we did not fight together against a common enemy to establish a common country. This is the basic principle of establishment of the majority of the countries that exist on the planet. To the contrary, we fought against each other and were only able to find middle ground in the RoC. The RoC was unique in its establishment and can not be compared with any other country from this critical point of view.

We signed in to the RoC only because very specific terms (e.g. that our relationship is of two separate communities which can not interfere with eachother`s affairs and in no circumstance extend governance or sovereignity over the other) were put in the constitution. If those terms were not agreed upon, we would not have signed in to the RoC. Your elected leader said you accepted them. We believed you. You lied.

What is right and just is that you first accept that you have no right to extend your will over the TCs in any way. Accept that you never had that right, you do not and you never will. After you do that we can talk about forming a bi-communal, bi-zonal government with the poitical equality of the two communities. This is your first option. Let me also remind you that it is the option suggested for you to take by the U.N. and it is the option which your leaders have been saying they are working to establish since 1979. Your second option is to attack us to enforce your will. There is no moderation between these two options for you. Which are in you favor of making progress towards?

[Piratis]

Cypriots are the legal majority over every corner of Cyprus. The Turkish minority on the island is only a result of relatively recent colonialism. It is the Turks who came to Cyprus in order to force their rule over the native people of the island, not the other way around.

Just like in South Africa or Apartheid, the minority that was created during colonial rule does not accept equality among citizens and they want to maintain racist discriminations and segregation, in order to keep for themselves undemocratic and unfair privileges.

Even worst, the Turks in Cyprus want to have a separate state for themselves on land that belongs to us by over 80% - something they have absolutely no right for.

And you are wrong Murataga. That you didn't fight on our side for freedom and self-determination doesn't give you any more rights. There are always the "Royalists", or the "Loyalists" in every revolution. Such people who fought on the side of foreign rulers never deserve any additional rights.

In the 1950s you sided with the foreign rulers and attacked the Cypriot people, starting the conflict, with the aim to oppress a revolution which had the support of the vast majority of the population. Today you are doing it again. You help another foreign ruler, Turkey, to illegally occupy our homeland, and in this way you are trying to blackmail the Cypriot people to surrender even more of their rights to you.

What is right and just is for Cyprus to have its freedom, self-determination, democracy, human rights and equality of citizens without racist discrimination and segregation. The Turkish minority in Cyprus can have all their human and minority rights, but they can not have Ottoman style privillages on the expense of the rest of the population, neither they have any right to rule lands that belong to Greek Cypriots by over 80%.

In 1974 Turkey started a war against Cyprus and illegally occupied 1/3rd of our island. What we have today is a cease fire. This war will not end with us surrendering to you what you took by force with your invasion. This war will end only when Cyprus is liberated. It is up to you if you will voluntarily hand back what you stole, and end the war in this way, or if you will continue your crimes and illegalities, something which gives to the Cypriot people every right to try and defend their island from foreign invaders by all means possible.

[lovernomore]

Cypriots are the legal majority over every corner of Cyprus. The Turkish minority on the island is only a result of relatively recent colonialism. It is the Turks who came to Cyprus in order to force their rule over the native people of the island, not the other way around.

Just like in South Africa or Apartheid, the minority that was created during colonial rule does not accept equality among citizens and they want to maintain racist discriminations and segregation, in order to keep for themselves undemocratic and unfair privileges.

Even worst, the Turks in Cyprus want to have a separate state for themselves on land that belongs to us by over 80% - something they have absolutely no right for.

And you are wrong Murataga. That you didn't fight on our side for freedom and self-determination doesn't give you any more rights. There are always the "Royalists", or the "Loyalists" in every revolution. Such people who fought on the side of foreign rulers never deserve any additional rights.

In the 1950s you sided with the foreign rulers and attacked the Cypriot people, starting the conflict, with the aim to oppress a revolution which had the support of the vast majority of the population. Today you are doing it again. You help another foreign ruler, Turkey, to illegally occupy our homeland, and in this way you are trying to blackmail the Cypriot people to surrender even more of their rights to you.

What is right and just is for Cyprus to have its freedom, self-determination, democracy, human rights and equality of citizens without racist discrimination and segregation. The Turkish minority in Cyprus can have all their human and minority rights, but they can not have Ottoman style privillages on the expense of the rest of the population, neither they have any right to rule lands that belong to Greek Cypriots by over 80%.

In 1974 Turkey started a war against Cyprus and illegally occupied 1/3rd of our island. What we have today is a cease fire. This war will not end with us surrendering to you what you took by force with your invasion. This war will end only when Cyprus is liberated. It is up to you if you will voluntarily hand back what you stole, and end the war in this way, or if you will continue your crimes and illegalities, something which gives to the Cypriot people every right to try and defend their island from foreign invaders by all means possible.

the robots program is going to blow fuse soon.

[Get Real!]

There is no political, historical or legal substance granting you majority rule over the TCs in Cyprus. It would be no different than asking for majority rule in the Aegean, or in Thrace, or in Asia and calling it "democracy". In fact the U.N. and the rest of the world (including your leaders today) acknowledge that the relationship between the TCs and GCs is that of two communities with political equality defined per U.N..

Why don't you post whatever you've got that supports your paragraph above...

[Get Real!]

We always have been, are and always will be ready/willing to defend ourselves from being subject to your rule.

Were you also ready to "defend yourselves" during 1570...1878?

[Sotos]

We always have been, are and always will be ready/willing to defend ourselves from being subject to your rule.

Were you also ready to "defend yourselves" during 1570...1878?

The confuse "defend" with "attack". They attack us and take our land and they call this defense We didn't bring them to Cyprus to have them under our rule. They invaded Cyprus so they can rule us! But we want our freedom and we will defend our island from these invaders!

[Get Real!]

We always have been, are and always will be ready/willing to defend ourselves from being subject to your rule.

Were you also ready to "defend yourselves" during 1570...1878?

The confuse "defend" with "attack". They attack us and take our land and they call this defense We didn't bring them to Cyprus to have them under our rule. They invaded Cyprus so they can rule us! But we want our freedom and we will defend our island from these invaders!

They had the “upper hand” back then so their “rights” to cruelty to others was guaranteed but now they are crying…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHZtDVPs--Y

[YFred]

We always have been, are and always will be ready/willing to defend ourselves from being subject to your rule.

Were you also ready to "defend yourselves" during 1570...1878?

The confuse "defend" with "attack". They attack us and take our land and they call this defense We didn't bring them to Cyprus to have them under our rule. They invaded Cyprus so they can rule us! But we want our freedom and we will defend our island from these invaders!

They had the “upper hand” back then so their “rights” to cruelty to others was guaranteed but now they are crying…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHZtDVPs--Y

You have reverted to talk again about the time Cyprus was ruled by the people from the planet Uranus.

Grow up, stop accusing and apologise for the innocent people you slaughtered you murdering Genocidal maniac.
Or will you wait till your deathbed before you confess.
Mavro yerimo naminis. Esuni je da helenisticasu.