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The Ottoman Genocide of the indigenous people of Cyprus…

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby denizaksulu » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:19 pm

CopperLine wrote:Get Real,
I'm afraid that you've just leapt to an unwarranted and prejudiced conclusion. On the assumption that these population figures are broadly correct - which in the absence of reliable census data until the twentieth century is a big assumption - there are many perfectly plausable explanations for either static popoulation levels or even substantial population decline which are NOT a function of genocide or mass killing.
That Cyprus as an island that was a primarily agricultural economy, with some external commercial exchange, beyond the marches of regular warfare is good reason to expect a relatively stable demographic pattern. Indeed the very absence of warfare, including mass killings, is typically associated with slow population growth rates.

For example, that the net rate of native Italian population increase has been zero or even negative over the last twenty years does not point to an explanation couched in terms of genocide of Italians !

I'm not dismissing the possibility that the low growth rate may be accounted for by mass killings, but there are much more likely explanations - and whichever explanation is offered they should be measured against the historical record. There is no serious evidence of what you call genocide in the period you refer to.

I ask you to consider the structure of the Ottoman empire and the taxation system. The welfare of tributary taxation system typical of the Ottoman empire, and including Ottoman Cyprus, was dependent on simple production, accumulation and taxation in which - crudely put 0- the greater the number of taxable producers the greater was the potential taxable product. Killing direct producers is a sure-fire way of reducing (permanently) the taxable population. In whose interests would such a policy be ? Not in the interests of either Ottoman rulers or of local Cypriot overseers or tax-farmers.

The Ottoman empire, like other empires of its kind, had to play a delicate balancing game : squeeze as much taxation out of the subject population but not so much that open rebellion was incited (rebellions which were expensive to suppress and costly in terms of loss of taxable heads).

But this, in the end, is a historical question which requires hard evidence. When and where were the genocides you refer to and what was their demographic effect ? Evidence please.



Never mind. GR is clutching at straws again. Not one of his better posts. He just obsessed with 'congress' data.

It would be tantamount to 'killing the goose which lay the golden egg'. :roll:
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:40 pm

Nikitas wrote:GR,

Your figures reflect the state of health as it was before the advances of the late 19the century which happend to have coincided with the arrival of the British. Infant mortality and life expectancy changed drastically once the role of bacteria was understood and vaccines invented. The same phenomenon of population stability before the lae 19th century was evident in the world population in general.

The point is not whether the Ottomans massacred people, but that they maintained a sysem of benign neglect which sapped the creativity of the occupied populations. Famagusta was a world famous center of trade and culture during Venetian times, it was a dump afterwards. The same can be said of Athens, Bucharest, Baghdad and other places where culture had flourished before the advent of the Ottomans. The Ottomans effectively kept the Rennaissance out of their domain, a paradox considering that the Rennaissance was only possible because of the stewardship of cultural knowledge by the Arabs in this same geographical area.


Whether the above may be true or not plague and Malaria took its toll. Does the 'Congress' have figures for the deaths caused by these regular epidemics? GR please oblige. :lol:
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Postby Oracle » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:36 pm

CopperLine wrote:For example, that the net rate of native Italian population increase has been zero or even negative over the last twenty years does not point to an explanation couched in terms of genocide of Italians !


You can't extrapolate this example of zero population growth to GR!'s argument, because we did not have such effective contraceptive measures as "the pill" in Ottoman times ....
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Postby Oracle » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:44 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:GR,

Your figures reflect the state of health as it was before the advances of the late 19the century which happend to have coincided with the arrival of the British. Infant mortality and life expectancy changed drastically once the role of bacteria was understood and vaccines invented. The same phenomenon of population stability before the lae 19th century was evident in the world population in general.

The point is not whether the Ottomans massacred people, but that they maintained a sysem of benign neglect which sapped the creativity of the occupied populations. Famagusta was a world famous center of trade and culture during Venetian times, it was a dump afterwards. The same can be said of Athens, Bucharest, Baghdad and other places where culture had flourished before the advent of the Ottomans. The Ottomans effectively kept the Rennaissance out of their domain, a paradox considering that the Rennaissance was only possible because of the stewardship of cultural knowledge by the Arabs in this same geographical area.


Whether the above may be true or not plague and Malaria took its toll. Does the 'Congress' have figures for the deaths caused by these regular epidemics? GR please oblige. :lol:


The effects of Malaria were fairly constant over time, peaks and troughs in the short term (usually seven year cycles), but in "harmony", with the indigenous population of Cyprus, over Centuries.

The Bubonic Plague however, struck Cyprus in late 1347; brought West from Central Asia by the Mongols into Anatolia etc. (They used dead bodies as the first example of Biological Warfare, by catapulting them into fortresses I seem to recall from some distant reading. :roll: )

The Plague probably halved the Cypriot population over the years 1347 to 1351 .... Hence long before the Ottoman Genocide data of GR's.
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:14 pm

Nikitas wrote:Your figures reflect the state of health as it was before the advances of the late 19the century which happend to have coincided with the arrival of the British. Infant mortality and life expectancy changed drastically once the role of bacteria was understood and vaccines invented. The same phenomenon of population stability before the lae 19th century was evident in the world population in general.

The point is not whether the Ottomans massacred people, but that they maintained a sysem of benign neglect which sapped the creativity of the occupied populations. Famagusta was a world famous center of trade and culture during Venetian times, it was a dump afterwards. The same can be said of Athens, Bucharest, Baghdad and other places where culture had flourished before the advent of the Ottomans. The Ottomans effectively kept the Rennaissance out of their domain, a paradox considering that the Rennaissance was only possible because of the stewardship of cultural knowledge by the Arabs in this same geographical area.

We have an entire table of population figures starting from the very end of Venetian rule (1491 - 168,000) and right up to recent times, and the ONLY period during which the population of Cyprus dwindled was during Ottoman rule!

Is that a coincidence? 300 years of a coincidence?

Disease? Here, take your pick from below and tell me which one matches the Ottoman period…

Bubonic Plague (first case 1348)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/plagues.htm

Smallpox (major outbreak 1721)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/plagues.htm

Influenza (major outbreaks in 1510, 1557 and 1580)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/epidemics.htm

Cholera (1817-18 and 1831-32)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/poor_sanitation.htm

Tuberculosis (not subject to the cyclic outbreaks of plagues)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/overcrowding.htm

Typhus (First identified1489-90)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/overcrowding.htm

Leprosy (12th century)
http://www.bignell.uk.com/leprosy.htm
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:19 pm

denizaksulu wrote:Whether the above may be true or not plague and Malaria took its toll. Does the 'Congress' have figures for the deaths caused by these regular epidemics? GR please oblige. :lol:

The indigenous Cypriots were immune to fatality from the local mosquito.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:29 pm

Oracle wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
Nikitas wrote:GR,

Your figures reflect the state of health as it was before the advances of the late 19the century which happend to have coincided with the arrival of the British. Infant mortality and life expectancy changed drastically once the role of bacteria was understood and vaccines invented. The same phenomenon of population stability before the lae 19th century was evident in the world population in general.

The point is not whether the Ottomans massacred people, but that they maintained a sysem of benign neglect which sapped the creativity of the occupied populations. Famagusta was a world famous center of trade and culture during Venetian times, it was a dump afterwards. The same can be said of Athens, Bucharest, Baghdad and other places where culture had flourished before the advent of the Ottomans. The Ottomans effectively kept the Rennaissance out of their domain, a paradox considering that the Rennaissance was only possible because of the stewardship of cultural knowledge by the Arabs in this same geographical area.


Whether the above may be true or not plague and Malaria took its toll. Does the 'Congress' have figures for the deaths caused by these regular epidemics? GR please oblige. :lol:


The effects of Malaria were fairly constant over time, peaks and troughs in the short term (usually seven year cycles), but in "harmony", with the indigenous population of Cyprus, over Centuries.

The Bubonic Plague however, struck Cyprus in late 1347; brought West from Central Asia by the Mongols into Anatolia etc. (They used dead bodies as the first example of Biological Warfare, by catapulting them into fortresses I seem to recall from some distant reading. :roll: )

The Plague probably halved the Cypriot population over the years 1347 to 1351 .... Hence long before the Ottoman Genocide data of GR's.



I am sure that there were more than one Plague Epidemic going around.

I have also been remembering that the Ottoman Navy had made use of local Greeks as the best sea-men in the Empire. These (Orthodox Greeks) were recruited to man the ships of the Galleys, Gallases the Bastardas etc. Considering the lose of life at the battle of Lepanto, where up tp 30,000 Ottoman sea-men lost their lives and thousands captured; I wonder how many of these ufortunates were of Cypriot origin. I hope nobody comes up and says its not true; they would (the Greek Orthodox) jump at the chance to fight against the Catholics or any other christian. We must remember that a lot of them had converted. Even Barbarossa and brothers were of Greek descent. (as were many of the Ottoman viziers etc.- not to mention the Sultans).

As I said earlier, it would be unlikely that the Ottomans would 'kill the goose that lay the golden eggs', unless ofcourse they had 'just' reason.
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Postby denizaksulu » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:32 pm

Get Real! wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:Whether the above may be true or not plague and Malaria took its toll. Does the 'Congress' have figures for the deaths caused by these regular epidemics? GR please oblige. :lol:

The indigenous Cypriots were immune to fatality from the local mosquito.


Its sad that only Oracle could 'verify' that. So I will not ask her.

Credible Evidence or forever keep shtumm. :lol:

I will have to look in to that.
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Postby lovernomore » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:38 pm

Oracle wrote:
CopperLine wrote:For example, that the net rate of native Italian population increase has been zero or even negative over the last twenty years does not point to an explanation couched in terms of genocide of Italians !


You can't extrapolate this example of zero population growth to GR!'s argument, because we did not have such effective contraceptive measures as "the pill" in Ottoman times ....


How can woman get pregnant when Greek man like to use back door. in that time it was mans favorite, specialy greek man to make back door visit.
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:38 pm

denizaksulu wrote:As I said earlier, it would be unlikely that the Ottomans would 'kill the goose that lay the golden eggs', unless ofcourse they had 'just' reason.

The removal of children to serve Ottoman interests, the atrocious conditions which the Cypriot locals were made to endure, the cold blooded murders by the thousands, etc, all constitute to GENOCIDE, and if the unjustifiable severe population decline doesn’t tell the tale then I don’t know what does…
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