Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

What a load of bull from Piratis. Can you imagine a proper census ever being carried out in Cyprus during the years you have noted? You need a reality check. They can be nothing but estimates. Estimates provided by the church probably. Especially conjured to reduce the tax due to the tax collecteors (which were usually the Bishops/Priests) or even to reduce the numbers of men joining the Ottoman Army proably as devshirmes.

Forget what I said, just provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE.

If they can collect taxes alright why would they have a problem counting their number of taxpayers and dependants?

Ask the crafty Orthodox population. I think it was you yourself who mentioned the tactics of avoidance and keeping males hidden, to stop them being enlisted. About a year ago. The same method also to avoid paying taxes. I am sure it was you. These figures are only guesswork imho.

[insan]

According to the link of insan, the population of Cyprus:

Year Population
1491 168,000
1575 180,000
1881 186,200
1891 209,300
1901 237,000
1911 274,100
1921 310,700
1931 348,000
1946 450,100
1960 573,600
1973 631,800

Note how the population of Cyprus increases quite fast normally except during the Ottoman era. Between 1575 and 1881, that is 306 years, the population of Cyprus had only increased by 6000 people!!! 6000 people in 306 years!!!

But thats not all. As insan tells us, during the Ottoman era 60.000 TCs were created. This means that the native population of Cyprus was actually reduced to 126.000 by the time the Ottomans were done with Cyprus!!

Then when the Ottoman rule ended, the population of Cyprus started to increase normally again and within 92 years the population had increased by 445.000.

This shows that while the Ottomans were ruling Cyprus they were actively exterminating the native population, replacing them with Turkish Settlers. That is how the Turkish minority was created in Cyprus.

This is one such extermination of the native population, where the Turks killed 20.000 Cypriots within days:

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

And then insan tells us that his minority has been larger during Ottoman times! Of course insan. Since you didn't let the native population to increase and you decreased it by massacres and oppression, of course your minority would be larger in comparison back then!

In 1571 around 35.000 Ottoman Turks settled in Cyprus why had'nt the population of Ottoman Turks trippled in 300+ years of Ottoman rule? Because Ottoman Turks and Hellen Orthodoxes massacreing each other?

Probably they were less than 35.000. But even if it was 35.000 that means there population almost doubled. If the same increase rate was allowed for the native population then by 1881 we would have been about 350.000.

[So Piratis, because of many reasons; most probably the main reason was the independence of Greece they migrated to Greece during that period of time but quickly labeling it with genocide by Ottomans; shows how prejudiced u r towards Turks.

Are you saying that 200.000+ people have been forced to leave from their own island because the Turks would not allow to these people to have their freedom and self-determination on their own homeland?

Interesting, but do you have any evidence to back this claim?

What i said is clear in the above quotation irrelevant to waht u trying to imply.

Yes it is clear what you claim. That Greece was freed, Cyprus was still under Ottoman occupation, so 200.000+ Cypriots had to abandon their island to find freedom because their freedom was denied to them in their own homeland. Isn't this your claim?

Not a claim, a probability based on the then facts.

[Get Real!]

What a load of bull from Piratis. Can you imagine a proper census ever being carried out in Cyprus during the years you have noted? You need a reality check. They can be nothing but estimates. Estimates provided by the church probably. Especially conjured to reduce the tax due to the tax collecteors (which were usually the Bishops/Priests) or even to reduce the numbers of men joining the Ottoman Army proably as devshirmes.

Forget what I said, just provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE.

If they can collect taxes alright why would they have a problem counting their number of taxpayers and dependants?

Ask the crafty Orthodox population. I think it was you yourself who mentioned the tactics of avoidance and keeping males hidden, to stop them being enlisted. About a year ago. The same method also to avoid paying taxes. I am sure it was you. These figures are only guesswork imho.

Tax collection is the mother of incentives for keeping as accurate a head count as possible...

[Kikapu]

The TCs in Cyprus are a minority. You think that because Ottomans ruled Cyprus centuries ago it means that your 18% is not a minority? If that was the case then the Turks in Bulgaria or Greece would not be a minority either. Neither the Greeks in Turkey would.

Basically you are a greedy minority of 18% who is trying to get more than what proportionally belongs to you on the expense of every other Cypriot, by collaborating with the invaders of Cyprus.

TC community has never been a minority and exert not to be a minority. TC population was 35% of total population of Cyprus. Just because the insistence of GC leadership and the clashes followed by, negatively affected the development, migration rate and fertility rate of TC community. That's why population of TC community reduced to 20% by 1960.

So that would be the fault of the British, wouldn't it, if your figures are correct. The British ruled until 1960, so when was it that the "TC's" numbers were at 35%, in 1571 or what.?

Not only the changed British mentality followed ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cyprus/cy_appen.html

Just before the Ottomans ceded Cyprus to the Brits, TC population was 60.000 out of 186.000 total population of Cyprus.

Table 7. Turkish Cypriot Population, Selected Dates, Sixteenth Century to 1988
Date Population*
Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458
1911 56,428
1921 61,339
1931 64,245
1946 80,548
1960 104,333
1963 120,000
1972 78,000
1978 146,740
1982 152,239
1986 162,676
1988 167,256

So basically, when the British took over the island, 15,000 Ottomans (TC's) went back to "Turkey" than be ruled by the British, which makes sense. How does any of this exodus by the Ottomans involve the GC's.?

I've told u above. Not only the changed British mentality following ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well. Besides the mutual armed struggle afterwards mid-50s; all negatively affected the migration rate, development and fertility rate of TCs.

Do you have anymore excuses ,Insan, because you keep changing the reasons. You said there were 60,000 TC's at one point, which was between 16th and 18th century and it seems according to the chart in the link you gave, that the 3rd of the TC's left the island in 1881 when the British took over the island, so stop with all the other excuses for god sake about the WWII, GC nationalist and lack of "boinking" to produce more babies, because I come from a large family of kids. Since 1881, the TC's numbers continued to climb until between 1963 and 1974 for obvious reasons, but when ever the GC and TC population percentages are discussed today, they are given 82%-18%, which are from the 1960 figures when the RoC was formed.!

What "excuses" u r talking abt? I talk abt the facts, based on documents and put forward my related oppinions for discussion.

In that case, the facts you provided has let you down, because they were used against you and your opinion to sink you. Next time read your facts very carefully before using them to make your arguments, because some of us here on the forum have an eye for details and not accept everything said at face value.!

[insan]

The TCs in Cyprus are a minority. You think that because Ottomans ruled Cyprus centuries ago it means that your 18% is not a minority? If that was the case then the Turks in Bulgaria or Greece would not be a minority either. Neither the Greeks in Turkey would.

Basically you are a greedy minority of 18% who is trying to get more than what proportionally belongs to you on the expense of every other Cypriot, by collaborating with the invaders of Cyprus.

TC community has never been a minority and exert not to be a minority. TC population was 35% of total population of Cyprus. Just because the insistence of GC leadership and the clashes followed by, negatively affected the development, migration rate and fertility rate of TC community. That's why population of TC community reduced to 20% by 1960.

So that would be the fault of the British, wouldn't it, if your figures are correct. The British ruled until 1960, so when was it that the "TC's" numbers were at 35%, in 1571 or what.?

Not only the changed British mentality followed ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cyprus/cy_appen.html

Just before the Ottomans ceded Cyprus to the Brits, TC population was 60.000 out of 186.000 total population of Cyprus.

Table 7. Turkish Cypriot Population, Selected Dates, Sixteenth Century to 1988
Date Population*
Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458
1911 56,428
1921 61,339
1931 64,245
1946 80,548
1960 104,333
1963 120,000
1972 78,000
1978 146,740
1982 152,239
1986 162,676
1988 167,256

So basically, when the British took over the island, 15,000 Ottomans (TC's) went back to "Turkey" than be ruled by the British, which makes sense. How does any of this exodus by the Ottomans involve the GC's.?

I've told u above. Not only the changed British mentality following ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well. Besides the mutual armed struggle afterwards mid-50s; all negatively affected the migration rate, development and fertility rate of TCs.

Do you have anymore excuses ,Insan, because you keep changing the reasons. You said there were 60,000 TC's at one point, which was between 16th and 18th century and it seems according to the chart in the link you gave, that the 3rd of the TC's left the island in 1881 when the British took over the island, so stop with all the other excuses for god sake about the WWII, GC nationalist and lack of "boinking" to produce more babies, because I come from a large family of kids. Since 1881, the TC's numbers continued to climb until between 1963 and 1974 for obvious reasons, but when ever the GC and TC population percentages are discussed today, they are given 82%-18%, which are from the 1960 figures when the RoC was formed.!

What "excuses" u r talking abt? I talk abt the facts, based on documents and put forward my related oppinions for discussion.

In that case, the facts you provided has let you down, because they were used against you and your opinion to sink you. Next time read your facts very carefully before using them to make your arguments, because some of us here on the forum have an eye for details and not accept everything said at face value.!

Where the facts i provided let me down and sinked me? R u conscious or drank too much tonight?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

I said for Cyprus u dumb idiot.

No you idiot, you were attacking True Democracy, Cyprus was just a side comment, hence your method in writing "true democracy", because you do not believe in it.!

[Piratis]

According to the link of insan, the population of Cyprus:

Year Population
1491 168,000
1575 180,000
1881 186,200
1891 209,300
1901 237,000
1911 274,100
1921 310,700
1931 348,000
1946 450,100
1960 573,600
1973 631,800

Note how the population of Cyprus increases quite fast normally except during the Ottoman era. Between 1575 and 1881, that is 306 years, the population of Cyprus had only increased by 6000 people!!! 6000 people in 306 years!!!

But thats not all. As insan tells us, during the Ottoman era 60.000 TCs were created. This means that the native population of Cyprus was actually reduced to 126.000 by the time the Ottomans were done with Cyprus!!

Then when the Ottoman rule ended, the population of Cyprus started to increase normally again and within 92 years the population had increased by 445.000.

This shows that while the Ottomans were ruling Cyprus they were actively exterminating the native population, replacing them with Turkish Settlers. That is how the Turkish minority was created in Cyprus.

This is one such extermination of the native population, where the Turks killed 20.000 Cypriots within days:

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

And then insan tells us that his minority has been larger during Ottoman times! Of course insan. Since you didn't let the native population to increase and you decreased it by massacres and oppression, of course your minority would be larger in comparison back then!

In 1571 around 35.000 Ottoman Turks settled in Cyprus why had'nt the population of Ottoman Turks trippled in 300+ years of Ottoman rule? Because Ottoman Turks and Hellen Orthodoxes massacreing each other?

Probably they were less than 35.000. But even if it was 35.000 that means there population almost doubled. If the same increase rate was allowed for the native population then by 1881 we would have been about 350.000.

[So Piratis, because of many reasons; most probably the main reason was the independence of Greece they migrated to Greece during that period of time but quickly labeling it with genocide by Ottomans; shows how prejudiced u r towards Turks.

Are you saying that 200.000+ people have been forced to leave from their own island because the Turks would not allow to these people to have their freedom and self-determination on their own homeland?

Interesting, but do you have any evidence to back this claim?

What i said is clear in the above quotation irrelevant to waht u trying to imply.

Yes it is clear what you claim. That Greece was freed, Cyprus was still under Ottoman occupation, so 200.000+ Cypriots had to abandon their island to find freedom because their freedom was denied to them in their own homeland. Isn't this your claim?

Not a claim, a probability based on the then facts.

So (according to you) 15.000 TCs left from Cyprus for Turkey, and 200.000 GCs left from Cyprus for Greece, and the numbers of those people should be added back in order to figure out the percentage of the population of each community.

Do it, and you will see that in that way your minority is even smaller

[Piratis]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

[insan]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

I said for Cyprus u dumb idiot.

No you idiot, you were attacking True Democracy, Cyprus was just a side comment, hence your method in writing "true democracy", because you do not believe in it.!

I only know democracy and it's various forms which one of them is consociational democracy. I've never heard or read abt a demcracy called "true democracy"; u dumbest idiot, embryonic "ape" Kikapu.

[insan]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.