Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

What a load of bull from Piratis. Can you imagine a proper census ever being carried out in Cyprus during the years you have noted? You need a reality check. They can be nothing but estimates. Estimates provided by the church probably. Especially conjured to reduce the tax due to the tax collecteors (which were usually the Bishops/Priests) or even to reduce the numbers of men joining the Ottoman Army proably as devshirmes.

Forget what I said, just provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE.

If they can collect taxes alright why would they have a problem counting their number of taxpayers and dependants?

Ask the crafty Orthodox population. I think it was you yourself who mentioned the tactics of avoidance and keeping males hidden, to stop them being enlisted. About a year ago. The same method also to avoid paying taxes. I am sure it was you. These figures are only guesswork imho.

Tax collection is the mother of incentives for keeping as accurate a head count as possible...

Yeah, right. Especially when it was the church doing the collection. We know the corruption within the church. Someone must have done a study on the Enrichment of the Greek Orthodoc Church in Cyprus. Ask your Library of Congress. They had a Mr. President Bush counting 'massacred' Orthodox in 1571 and witnessing the W of MD used by the Ottomans to effect this. (where does your library get its info from?) Frobably from the Greek Cypriot Administration!!

Give me a break GR

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

No I dont know but it was probably the UN taking into account worldwide examples eg Poland. Hundreds of experts from all over the world contributed to the AP and although it has been demonzied by the GCs it will always remain as a basis for any future plans.

[Piratis]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

So now YFred agrees with Viewpoint that TCs are not a minority. But here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 588#406588 he admitted that "TC's are not special" when I was asking him what is so special with TCs when compared with other minorities in other countries, e.g. the Kurds in Turkey.

As I said earlier, the 18% of Turkish minority in Cyprus is obviously a minority, which was used by the Turks and British, by promising to this minority privileges and disproportionally large powers (and later land as well), in order to turn them against the majority and deny to Cyprus its self-determination.

VP, is talking about compromise and what he means is this: For Cypriots to compromise 1/3rd of their land as well as their human and democratic rights, while the TCs would "compromise" by giving back a tiny fraction of what they stole and what does not belong to them in the first place! That is what you call compromise?? I don't!

If you want mutual compromises, then it is very easy: Give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from your Turkish minority in Cyprus.

[Get Real!]

What a load of bull from Piratis. Can you imagine a proper census ever being carried out in Cyprus during the years you have noted? You need a reality check. They can be nothing but estimates. Estimates provided by the church probably. Especially conjured to reduce the tax due to the tax collecteors (which were usually the Bishops/Priests) or even to reduce the numbers of men joining the Ottoman Army proably as devshirmes.

Forget what I said, just provide CREDIBLE EVIDENCE.

If they can collect taxes alright why would they have a problem counting their number of taxpayers and dependants?

Ask the crafty Orthodox population. I think it was you yourself who mentioned the tactics of avoidance and keeping males hidden, to stop them being enlisted. About a year ago. The same method also to avoid paying taxes. I am sure it was you. These figures are only guesswork imho.

Tax collection is the mother of incentives for keeping as accurate a head count as possible...

Yeah, right. Especially when it was the church doing the collection. We know the corruption within the church. Someone must have done a study on the Enrichment of the Greek Orthodoc Church in Cyprus. Ask your Library of Congress. They had a Mr. President Bush counting 'massacred' Orthodox in 1571 and witnessing the W of MD used by the Ottomans to effect this. (where does your library get its info from?) Frobably from the Greek Cypriot Administration!!

Give me a break GR

Maybe the Ottomans should've let the Orthodox Church, who incidentally outlived them by millennia, handle their finances... and who knows dear Deniz? Today you might’ve been the grand Vizier of Cyprus…

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

So now YFred agrees with Viewpoint that TCs are not a minority. But here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 588#406588 he admitted that "TC's are not special" when I was asking him what is so special with TCs when compared with other minorities in other countries, e.g. the Kurds in Turkey.

As I said earlier, the 18% of Turkish minority in Cyprus is obviously a minority, which was used by the Turks and British, by promising to this minority privileges and disproportionally large powers (and later land as well), in order to turn them against the majority and deny to Cyprus its self-determination.

VP, is talking about compromise and what he means is this: For Cypriots to compromise 1/3rd of their land as well as their human and democratic rights, while the TCs would "compromise" by giving back a tiny fraction of what they stole and what does not belong to them in the first place! That is what you call compromise?? I don't!

If you want mutual compromises, then it is very easy: Give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from your Turkish minority in Cyprus.

We will not capitulate to your demands, you have to clean up your own mess and in order to do so we will both have to compromise. Are you refusing to do so? in order to find a structure we can both commit to we will both have to swallow our pride and accept a forumla that will address both sides concerns. You cannot have it all your way, time you realized that.

[Piratis]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

So now YFred agrees with Viewpoint that TCs are not a minority. But here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 588#406588 he admitted that "TC's are not special" when I was asking him what is so special with TCs when compared with other minorities in other countries, e.g. the Kurds in Turkey.

As I said earlier, the 18% of Turkish minority in Cyprus is obviously a minority, which was used by the Turks and British, by promising to this minority privileges and disproportionally large powers (and later land as well), in order to turn them against the majority and deny to Cyprus its self-determination.

VP, is talking about compromise and what he means is this: For Cypriots to compromise 1/3rd of their land as well as their human and democratic rights, while the TCs would "compromise" by giving back a tiny fraction of what they stole and what does not belong to them in the first place! That is what you call compromise?? I don't!

If you want mutual compromises, then it is very easy: Give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from your Turkish minority in Cyprus.

We will not capitulate to your demands, you have to clean up your own mess and in order to do so we will both have to compromise. Are you refusing to do so? in order to find a structure we can both commit to we will both have to swallow our pride and accept a forumla that will address both sides concerns. You cannot have it all your way, time you realized that.

So you think that giving back to us a tiny bit of what you stole and what does not belong to you in the first place, counts as a compromise from your side?

You are occupying our land and you are trying to blackmail us and force us to surrender most of that land, as well as our democratic rights. So about what "compromises" from your side are you talking about?

Tell me one thing that is legally yours and which you are going to compromise. Can you find any?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

So now YFred agrees with Viewpoint that TCs are not a minority. But here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 588#406588 he admitted that "TC's are not special" when I was asking him what is so special with TCs when compared with other minorities in other countries, e.g. the Kurds in Turkey.

As I said earlier, the 18% of Turkish minority in Cyprus is obviously a minority, which was used by the Turks and British, by promising to this minority privileges and disproportionally large powers (and later land as well), in order to turn them against the majority and deny to Cyprus its self-determination.

VP, is talking about compromise and what he means is this: For Cypriots to compromise 1/3rd of their land as well as their human and democratic rights, while the TCs would "compromise" by giving back a tiny fraction of what they stole and what does not belong to them in the first place! That is what you call compromise?? I don't!

If you want mutual compromises, then it is very easy: Give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from your Turkish minority in Cyprus.

We will not capitulate to your demands, you have to clean up your own mess and in order to do so we will both have to compromise. Are you refusing to do so? in order to find a structure we can both commit to we will both have to swallow our pride and accept a forumla that will address both sides concerns. You cannot have it all your way, time you realized that.

So you think that giving back to us a tiny bit of what you stole and what does not belong to you in the first place, counts as a compromise from your side?

You are occupying our land and you are trying to blackmail us and force us to surrender most of that land, as well as our democratic rights. So about what "compromises" from your side are you talking about?

Tell me one thing that is legally yours and which you are going to compromise. Can you find any?

63% of my country.

[Piratis]

Piratis,
So explain to me how in a pure democracy, who will protect the TC's from your extreme elments.
Will your police or Army protect us or are we to wait until UN decidews to pass a resolution.

You will also be in the police and in the army, so why you say "your", it is going to be yours as well.

Some extreme elements will always exist, as they exist in all countries. There are TC extreme elements as well, I hope you do not deny this. These extreme elements do not care about what system the country has. If they want to cause some harm they will do it regardless of the system. Having some undemocratic system will not prevent them.

Cyprus will deal with these extreme elements in the same way as every other democratic country.

"Extreme elements" can not be an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people.

They will deal with it alright by turning a blind eye. we have experienced it in the past and are experiencing today nothing has changed so you are really trying to peddle faulty goods, no one will swallow what you have to say.

VP, I didn't expect any Turkish invader or settler to accept anything.

My aim is not to convince you. I know perfectly well that your aim is to steal our lands, and of course nothing we will say will change your mind about this.

As I said time and again, negotiating with you is a total waste of time. Here I am not negotiating with you, neither I am trying to come to any agreement with you. I know that this is impossible.

I am simply refuting your lame excuses for committing crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent people, and your hypocrisy which can be clearly seen in the way you treat the Kurds and the other minorities in Turkey, and then you come to give lessons to us.

You contributed to the current situation you complain about today, yet all you put forward are the same old rigid criteria that means we have to capitulate to your will. We will never do this, we would rather starve, become more Turkish, even become part of Turkey than capitulate to GCs thats how strongly we feel. Now that said we do not want any harm to come to GCs and we agree that the refugees should be granted a right to choose between return or compensation, but you to have to accept that we will no just roll over beg at your feet for crmbs from your table, we want to have an effective role in any new union and not something where we are just another minority as you continue to try and sell, this route is a dead end and at least your leaders have realized that what you support is not what the world supports or sees as a solution to the Cyprus problem, whats been put forward is a BBF with politcal equality of the 2 communities and what is being discussed today the sooner you realize that we are not considered or treated as just another minority the sooner you will understand that both sides have to compromise and show a flexible stance towards each others concerns and fears. You fear the Turkish army I support their leaving and so on and on.

Well put.
Explain to me why they claim you are not a moderate?
VP,do you know who insisted that the 74 property prices should be used for calculations?

So now YFred agrees with Viewpoint that TCs are not a minority. But here http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 588#406588 he admitted that "TC's are not special" when I was asking him what is so special with TCs when compared with other minorities in other countries, e.g. the Kurds in Turkey.

As I said earlier, the 18% of Turkish minority in Cyprus is obviously a minority, which was used by the Turks and British, by promising to this minority privileges and disproportionally large powers (and later land as well), in order to turn them against the majority and deny to Cyprus its self-determination.

VP, is talking about compromise and what he means is this: For Cypriots to compromise 1/3rd of their land as well as their human and democratic rights, while the TCs would "compromise" by giving back a tiny fraction of what they stole and what does not belong to them in the first place! That is what you call compromise?? I don't!

If you want mutual compromises, then it is very easy: Give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from your Turkish minority in Cyprus.

We will not capitulate to your demands, you have to clean up your own mess and in order to do so we will both have to compromise. Are you refusing to do so? in order to find a structure we can both commit to we will both have to swallow our pride and accept a forumla that will address both sides concerns. You cannot have it all your way, time you realized that.

So you think that giving back to us a tiny bit of what you stole and what does not belong to you in the first place, counts as a compromise from your side?

You are occupying our land and you are trying to blackmail us and force us to surrender most of that land, as well as our democratic rights. So about what "compromises" from your side are you talking about?

Tell me one thing that is legally yours and which you are going to compromise. Can you find any?

63% of my country.

Partition has been your dream since the 50s, and now you are presenting it as your "compromise".

It just proves that not only you are making absolutely no compromises, but on the contrary you continue to be after your most extreme aim.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis do you not support your leaders mission to negotiate a BBF with political equality of the 2 states?

[Piratis]

Piratis do you not support your leaders mission to negotiate a BBF with political equality of the 2 states?

My leaders do not support such thing mate.

We are willing to make a compromise for political equality of communities, not states, and that political equality of communities does not mean 50%-50% power share as you want it.

But yes, we are willing to make some compromises and this is one such example.

But in order to come to an agreement you have to make compromises from your rights as well.

So I ask you again:

Tell me one thing that is legally yours and which you are willing to compromise.