Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

The TCs in Cyprus are a minority. You think that because Ottomans ruled Cyprus centuries ago it means that your 18% is not a minority? If that was the case then the Turks in Bulgaria or Greece would not be a minority either. Neither the Greeks in Turkey would.

Basically you are a greedy minority of 18% who is trying to get more than what proportionally belongs to you on the expense of every other Cypriot, by collaborating with the invaders of Cyprus.

TC community has never been a minority and exert not to be a minority. TC population was 35% of total population of Cyprus. Just because the insistence of GC leadership and the clashes followed by, negatively affected the development, migration rate and fertility rate of TC community. That's why population of TC community reduced to 20% by 1960.

So that would be the fault of the British, wouldn't it, if your figures are correct. The British ruled until 1960, so when was it that the "TC's" numbers were at 35%, in 1571 or what.?

Not only the changed British mentality followed ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cyprus/cy_appen.html

Just before the Ottomans ceded Cyprus to the Brits, TC population was 60.000 out of 186.000 total population of Cyprus.

Table 7. Turkish Cypriot Population, Selected Dates, Sixteenth Century to 1988
Date Population*
Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458
1911 56,428
1921 61,339
1931 64,245
1946 80,548
1960 104,333
1963 120,000
1972 78,000
1978 146,740
1982 152,239
1986 162,676
1988 167,256

So basically, when the British took over the island, 15,000 Ottomans (TC's) went back to "Turkey" than be ruled by the British, which makes sense. How does any of this exodus by the Ottomans involve the GC's.?

I've told u above. Not only the changed British mentality following ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well. Besides the mutual armed struggle afterwards mid-50s; all negatively affected the migration rate, development and fertility rate of TCs.

Do you have anymore excuses ,Insan, because you keep changing the reasons. You said there were 60,000 TC's at one point, which was between 16th and 18th century and it seems according to the chart in the link you gave, that the 3rd of the TC's left the island in 1881 when the British took over the island, so stop with all the other excuses for god sake about the WWII, GC nationalist and lack of "boinking" to produce more babies, because I come from a large family of kids. Since 1881, the TC's numbers continued to climb until between 1963 and 1974 for obvious reasons, but when ever the GC and TC population percentages are discussed today, they are given 82%-18%, which are from the 1960 figures when the RoC was formed.!

What "excuses" u r talking abt? I talk abt the facts, based on documents and put forward my related oppinions for discussion.

In that case, the facts you provided has let you down, because they were used against you and your opinion to sink you. Next time read your facts very carefully before using them to make your arguments, because some of us here on the forum have an eye for details and not accept everything said at face value.!

Where the facts i provided let me down and sinked me? R u conscious or drank too much tonight?

The biggest drop in the "TC's" numbers were during 1881 when the Brits took over, so if you are going to blame anyone for the drop in the TC's numbers, blame the Brits only, or the departing TC's for not wanting to ruled by the Brits, but don't blame anyone else as you tried from the very beginning of your post on this topic. You have been caught and slapped silly with it.!

Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458

U r ridiclous, Kikapu. I didn't blame anyone regarding the reducing numbers of TCs in Cyprus. I just stated the causes of reducing numbers of TCs. The emotional violence athat GC nationalists created during 1930-1955 and mutual armed violence/strugle during 1955-1974 also had triggered the TC migration and negatively affected the development and fertility rate of TCs.

Don't drink too much, u idiot when u come here to debate.

You have a short memory Insan. You said there were 35% TC's on the island one time and were not minorities and that their numbers were reduced by all the excuses that you gave including blaming the GC nationalists, when in fact, it was in 1881 when their numbers dropped drastically due to "changing of the guards" for Cyprus. It had nothing to do with all the other excuses you gave for their numbers dropping, that's all. So admit that you were blaming the wrong people and move on.!

[insan]

In a true democracy the lower classes of a nation control public affairs without respect to law, precedents or vested rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate based upon deliberation, passion, prejudice or impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences of the action. A true democracy has been shown to results in demogogism, (a country run by the passions and prejudices of the majority) license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

http://www.couplescompany.com/FEATURES/ ... cture1.htm

Look what they say abt true democrasy

[Piratis]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.

So what they have in Turkey is not "ethno-majoritarian nation state"?

Would you accept the kind of parliamentary democracy in the way they have it in Turkey for Cyprus?

That's what the Turks and Kurds together struggled for and formed together in 1923. Kurds hadn't been forced by Turks to struggle together with Turks to proclaim Republic of Turkey in 1923.

Oh, so the Kurds want to be part of Republic of Turkey, they also want to have their language banned, their villages bombed and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". So I guess the Kurds are happy since they got what they wanted.

What about the Greeks and the other minorities in Turkey? They don't want "consociationalism" either?

Poor Turks of Turkey. They know that this "consociationalism" is the best system but all these Kurds and Greeks and others don't allow them to have it

[insan]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.

So what they have in Turkey is not "ethno-majoritarian nation state"?

Would you accept the kind of parliamentary democracy in the way they have it in Turkey for Cyprus?

That's what the Turks and Kurds together struggled for and formed together in 1923. Kurds hadn't been forced by Turks to struggle together with Turks to proclaim Republic of Turkey in 1923.

Oh, so the Kurds want to be part of Republic of Turkey, they also want to have their language banned, their villages bombed and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". So I guess the Kurds are happy since they got what they wanted.

What about the Greeks and the other minorities in Turkey? They don't want "consociationalism" either?

Poor Turks of Turkey. They know that this "consociationalism" is the best system but all these Kurds and Greeks and others don't allow them to have it

we r talking abt 2 main communities of Cyprus not minorities of other countries. U should ask some Kurds and Turks why they came together to struggle against the enemy to proclaim ROT as a common state for themselves. Have u got any idea why did they struggled together to proclaim ROT?

[Oracle]

There is only ONE main (82%) community ... the others are minor communities .... Of course all are made up of individuals, who matter more.

[insan]

The TCs in Cyprus are a minority. You think that because Ottomans ruled Cyprus centuries ago it means that your 18% is not a minority? If that was the case then the Turks in Bulgaria or Greece would not be a minority either. Neither the Greeks in Turkey would.

Basically you are a greedy minority of 18% who is trying to get more than what proportionally belongs to you on the expense of every other Cypriot, by collaborating with the invaders of Cyprus.

TC community has never been a minority and exert not to be a minority. TC population was 35% of total population of Cyprus. Just because the insistence of GC leadership and the clashes followed by, negatively affected the development, migration rate and fertility rate of TC community. That's why population of TC community reduced to 20% by 1960.

So that would be the fault of the British, wouldn't it, if your figures are correct. The British ruled until 1960, so when was it that the "TC's" numbers were at 35%, in 1571 or what.?

Not only the changed British mentality followed ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cyprus/cy_appen.html

Just before the Ottomans ceded Cyprus to the Brits, TC population was 60.000 out of 186.000 total population of Cyprus.

Table 7. Turkish Cypriot Population, Selected Dates, Sixteenth Century to 1988
Date Population*
Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458
1911 56,428
1921 61,339
1931 64,245
1946 80,548
1960 104,333
1963 120,000
1972 78,000
1978 146,740
1982 152,239
1986 162,676
1988 167,256

So basically, when the British took over the island, 15,000 Ottomans (TC's) went back to "Turkey" than be ruled by the British, which makes sense. How does any of this exodus by the Ottomans involve the GC's.?

I've told u above. Not only the changed British mentality following ww2 but intense emotional violence created by GC nationalists as well. Besides the mutual armed struggle afterwards mid-50s; all negatively affected the migration rate, development and fertility rate of TCs.

Do you have anymore excuses ,Insan, because you keep changing the reasons. You said there were 60,000 TC's at one point, which was between 16th and 18th century and it seems according to the chart in the link you gave, that the 3rd of the TC's left the island in 1881 when the British took over the island, so stop with all the other excuses for god sake about the WWII, GC nationalist and lack of "boinking" to produce more babies, because I come from a large family of kids. Since 1881, the TC's numbers continued to climb until between 1963 and 1974 for obvious reasons, but when ever the GC and TC population percentages are discussed today, they are given 82%-18%, which are from the 1960 figures when the RoC was formed.!

What "excuses" u r talking abt? I talk abt the facts, based on documents and put forward my related oppinions for discussion.

In that case, the facts you provided has let you down, because they were used against you and your opinion to sink you. Next time read your facts very carefully before using them to make your arguments, because some of us here on the forum have an eye for details and not accept everything said at face value.!

Where the facts i provided let me down and sinked me? R u conscious or drank too much tonight?

The biggest drop in the "TC's" numbers were during 1881 when the Brits took over, so if you are going to blame anyone for the drop in the TC's numbers, blame the Brits only, or the departing TC's for not wanting to ruled by the Brits, but don't blame anyone else as you tried from the very beginning of your post on this topic. You have been caught and slapped silly with it.!

Sixteenth century 40,000 to 60,000
Eighteenth century 60,000
1881 45,458

U r ridiclous, Kikapu. I didn't blame anyone regarding the reducing numbers of TCs in Cyprus. I just stated the causes of reducing numbers of TCs. The emotional violence athat GC nationalists created during 1930-1955 and mutual armed violence/strugle during 1955-1974 also had triggered the TC migration and negatively affected the development and fertility rate of TCs.

Don't drink too much, u idiot when u come here to debate.

You have a short memory Insan. You said there were 35% TC's on the island one time and were not minorities and that their numbers were reduced by all the excuses that you gave including blaming the GC nationalists, when in fact, it was in 1881 when their numbers dropped drastically due to "changing of the guards" for Cyprus. It had nothing to do with all the other excuses you gave for their numbers dropping, that's all. So admit that you were blaming the wrong people and move on.!

No. I still insist on what i previously stated abt the causes of reducing numbers of TCs and in no case i considered TCs as a minority and never will consider TC community as a minority in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.

So what they have in Turkey is not "ethno-majoritarian nation state"?

Would you accept the kind of parliamentary democracy in the way they have it in Turkey for Cyprus?

That's what the Turks and Kurds together struggled for and formed together in 1923. Kurds hadn't been forced by Turks to struggle together with Turks to proclaim Republic of Turkey in 1923.

Oh, so the Kurds want to be part of Republic of Turkey, they also want to have their language banned, their villages bombed and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". So I guess the Kurds are happy since they got what they wanted.

What about the Greeks and the other minorities in Turkey? They don't want "consociationalism" either?

Poor Turks of Turkey. They know that this "consociationalism" is the best system but all these Kurds and Greeks and others don't allow them to have it

we r talking abt 2 main communities of Cyprus not minorities of other countries. U should ask some Kurds and Turks why they came together to struggle against the enemy to proclaim ROT as a common state for themselves. Have u got any idea why did they struggled together to proclaim ROT?

Oh, so now your "consociationalism" is only applicable to Cyprus ah?

About the Kurds we agreed already. They wanted to be in Republic of Turkey so their language will be banned, their villages bombed, and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". The Turks treat the Kurds perfectly, so what is the need of "consociationalism", right insan?

In the pseudo state you created on the land you stole from us, what system do you have there? There are some Greek Cypriots still living there. Is there any "consociationalism" for them?

[insan]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.

So what they have in Turkey is not "ethno-majoritarian nation state"?

Would you accept the kind of parliamentary democracy in the way they have it in Turkey for Cyprus?

That's what the Turks and Kurds together struggled for and formed together in 1923. Kurds hadn't been forced by Turks to struggle together with Turks to proclaim Republic of Turkey in 1923.

Oh, so the Kurds want to be part of Republic of Turkey, they also want to have their language banned, their villages bombed and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". So I guess the Kurds are happy since they got what they wanted.

What about the Greeks and the other minorities in Turkey? They don't want "consociationalism" either?

Poor Turks of Turkey. They know that this "consociationalism" is the best system but all these Kurds and Greeks and others don't allow them to have it

we r talking abt 2 main communities of Cyprus not minorities of other countries. U should ask some Kurds and Turks why they came together to struggle against the enemy to proclaim ROT as a common state for themselves. Have u got any idea why did they struggled together to proclaim ROT?

Oh, so now your "consociationalism" is only applicable to Cyprus ah?

About the Kurds we agreed already. They wanted to be in Republic of Turkey so their language will be banned, their villages bombed, and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". The Turks treat the Kurds perfectly, so what is the need of "consociationalism", right insan?

In the pseudo state you created on the land you stole from us, what system do you have there? There are some Greek Cypriots still living there. Is there any "consociationalism" for them?

Since majority of Turkish parliament consist of Kurdish origin MPs, why should Kurds ask for consociationalism. Kurds continued talking their language locally but officially they accepted to continue using Turkish. The terrorists in the villages bombed not the Kurdish villages. From Cyprus u had not observed closely i guess.

Hellene's together with GC ultra nationalists pushed us to do what we did. We tried our best to get a deal on consociaional goverance since the beginning of Brit rule but Hellene's together with GC ultra nationalists couldn't digest this form of democracy. So blame those ultra nationalists instead of Turkey and TCs.

[Piratis]

Kikapu, consociationalism failed in Cyprus because the ultra nationalist of Hellenes in collaboration with GC extremists, exerted extremely to make it fail.

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in Denmark.!

The point is, it was a bad system that created violent reactions and it should have never been used in the first place, because the "consociationalism" you very proudly like to present to us did not even live up to it's own principles when applied in Cyprus. It was a failed system from the beginning and should never be experimented with again in Cyprus.!

Try True Democracy in Cyprus next time.!

It's got to do something with ur fake idendity and blinded eyes by hatred. What u call as "true democracy" for Cyprus, officially called ethno-majoritarian nation state which eventually leads it to Hellenic rule.

And you are an idiot who does not accept reality but wants to try and fit a square peg into a round hole in the name of "consociationalism" which is nothing more than another version of Annan Plan.!

So, according to your logic, all other western nations who practice True Democracy have all fallen under Hellenic rule.!

You belong in a country where they only talk about Democracy but it is not. Pick any Muslim nation and you will find one that is not a real Democracy.! You have many to choose from.!

Insan, what do you call the system that they have in Turkey?

Still waiting insan. What is the system that they have in Turkey called?

Don't ask me this type of simple questions, Piratis. It's parliamentary democracy ofc. I'm not ur politics teacher.

So what they have in Turkey is not "ethno-majoritarian nation state"?

Would you accept the kind of parliamentary democracy in the way they have it in Turkey for Cyprus?

That's what the Turks and Kurds together struggled for and formed together in 1923. Kurds hadn't been forced by Turks to struggle together with Turks to proclaim Republic of Turkey in 1923.

Oh, so the Kurds want to be part of Republic of Turkey, they also want to have their language banned, their villages bombed and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". So I guess the Kurds are happy since they got what they wanted.

What about the Greeks and the other minorities in Turkey? They don't want "consociationalism" either?

Poor Turks of Turkey. They know that this "consociationalism" is the best system but all these Kurds and Greeks and others don't allow them to have it

we r talking abt 2 main communities of Cyprus not minorities of other countries. U should ask some Kurds and Turks why they came together to struggle against the enemy to proclaim ROT as a common state for themselves. Have u got any idea why did they struggled together to proclaim ROT?

Oh, so now your "consociationalism" is only applicable to Cyprus ah?

About the Kurds we agreed already. They wanted to be in Republic of Turkey so their language will be banned, their villages bombed, and to be renamed to "Mountain Turks". The Turks treat the Kurds perfectly, so what is the need of "consociationalism", right insan?

In the pseudo state you created on the land you stole from us, what system do you have there? There are some Greek Cypriots still living there. Is there any "consociationalism" for them?

Since majority of Turkish parliament consist of Kurdish origin MPs, why should Kurds ask for consociationalism. Kurds continued talking their language locally but officially they accepted to continue using Turkish. The terrorists in the villages bombed not the Kurdish villages. From Cyprus u had not observed closely i guess.

Hellene's together with GC ultra nationalists pushed us to do what we did. We tried our best to get a deal on consociaional goverance since the beginning of Brit rule but Hellene's together with GC ultra nationalists couldn't digest this form of democracy. So blame those ultra nationalists instead of Turkey and TCs.

You just prove how hypocrite you are. You came here to tell us how bad a one-person one-vote democracy is, and then you support this exact same thing in Turkey claiming that the Kurds don't need anything more because the so nice Turks have always treated them so nicely (do you think anybody believes you?)

If there is one "ethno-majoritarian nation" as you called it, that is Turkey. The Turks not only rule by majority rule (which is fine), but the don't even allow the basic human rights to their minorities (which is totally not fine). And then you come here to give to us lessons??

If you truly believed that this "consociationalism" was a better system, then you would want to apply it to Turkey as well, without any lame excuses. You would have also applied it in your pseudo state. But you just proven that what you support is not based on principles but based exclusively on your own self-interests. You are trying to prohibit a true democracy in Cyprus, so you can have gains on the expense of every other Cypriot.

And even this "consociationalism" that you want to apply where it suits you, it says that "Proportionality" is one of the 4 key elements: "Representation is based on population. If one pillar accounts for 30% of the overall society, then they occupy 30% of the positions on the police force, in civil service, and in other national and civic segments of society."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociationalism

But apparently you want to "improve" this "consociationalism" and remove the bits that don't perfectly suit you, so you can create the "perfect system" that would allow you the maximum gains on our expense.

And I also wonder what system gives to you the right to have as your own state lands that belong to us by 80%. I checked "consociationalism" and it doesn't give you any such right. So whats the system you apply to gain that?

[repulsewarrior]

... very interesting topic, thanks guys.

...regarding Turkey, I have always believed that there is a huge difference between Ataturk and his struggle compared to the Kemalists who exploit the legacy he left. Being a Turk did not mean being Turkish, which seems to be anathema to the politics of Turkey today.