Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

The simple fact here is that for the property issue to be resolved properly, the TC's will have to give back much more land than they are prepared to make.

Any solution cannot undermine the individual property rights. Any solution that goes against fundamental human rights principles will be liable to be challenged in EU courts. Also, when it comes to freedom of movement and settlement, restrictions cannot be put on citizens of Cyprus while at the same time EU citizens dont have restrictions.

Basically, a price will have to be paid either way. The most sensible way is to allow people to go back to their homes if they so choose. If they don't, then that is when exchange and compensations should come into play.

It is very tiring and boring listening to the TC demands regarding property and their 'rights' whilst at the same time ignoring the rights of the GC's. You cannot defend your rights at the expense of others. Period. Any solution that attempts to do that will be unravelled very quickly in the EU courts. The result will be chaos.

[YFred]

Compensation exchange and restitution, all sounds really neat and tidy.

What idiot thinks that TCs who own land around Limassol, Paphos and Larnaca will want to give it away when they can keep ownership of it? Go on, put your hand up and tell us why a man who owns land worth hundreds of thousands of Euro per acre will want to exchange it with a dump in Karpasia or Lefka.

The problem dear friends will not be mostly GCs who want their land back, but TCs who will not want to relinquish their valuable real estate in the south. Real estate that has value beyond that which tourism brings to the land. Value which is gained via the commercial and therefore more viable development around the land, like in the case of land near ports, airports, industrial parks etc.

How is Talat going to convice these TCs to give away their land at 1974 values? Will these people be tricked, swindled, threatened? Because volutarily I do not see it happening.

Are they still talking about compensation at 1974 prices.?

But there are 4 times more property left behind by the GC's in the north than the TC's in the south, so which 25% of the GC's along with 100%TC refugees will get the 1974 prices so that they can both cancel each other out and which remaining 75% of the GC's refugees will get today's market prices.?

I can see a riot starting over this.!

Who put forward the idea of 74 prices?
Was it GCs or Was it TCs?

[YFred]

Bi-zonal ,Bi-communal federation idea is very strong in TC's .

You don't say...

i always said above saying but not the way you thinking .

once more again for u what we are saying .Bi-zonal ,Bi-communal federation with single citizenship and guarantees of Turkey .

(for me it is not important if it is called compound states ,communities or constituent states or founders)

Halil it is no good trying to talk to GR. He only understands greek or he is deaf.
So stop wasting your time.

[growuptcs]

YFred:

Who put forward the idea of 74 prices?
Was it GCs or Was it TCs?

Take a wild guess?

[-mikkie2-]

Annan plan stated 1974 prices + inflation.

This bears no reality to the current property value.

Apply inflation of 2 or 3% yearly for 35 years and you won't get anywhere near the actual appreciation of property values in that time.

So, according to the plan, a house that would have cost £1000 in 1974 would be worth around £2400 in 2004 if the above formula is applied.

In real money, that £1000 house would actually now be worth £200000!

So basically, the Annan plan would be ripping off every single person who lost property during the invasion. A very fair and equitable solution - no wonder the TC's voted in favour of the plan!

[bill cobbett]

The simple fact here is that for the property issue to be resolved properly, the TC's will have to give back much more land than they are prepared to make.

Any solution cannot undermine the individual property rights. Any solution that goes against fundamental human rights principles will be liable to be challenged in EU courts. Also, when it comes to freedom of movement and settlement, restrictions cannot be put on citizens of Cyprus while at the same time EU citizens dont have restrictions.

Basically, a price will have to be paid either way. The most sensible way is to allow people to go back to their homes if they so choose. If they don't, then that is when exchange and compensations should come into play.

It is very tiring and boring listening to the TC demands regarding property and their 'rights' whilst at the same time ignoring the rights of the GC's. You cannot defend your rights at the expense of others. Period. Any solution that attempts to do that will be unravelled very quickly in the EU courts. The result will be chaos.

Absolutely mate/matess. There will be an awful lot of people going before the European courts if anything comes in to CY law/constitution that violates basic wider laws on such matters as freedom of movement/settlement and property rights. Possibly in the form of class actions (as first suggested by GR! a few days ago).

[Nikitas]

"class actions (as first suggested by GR! a few days ago)." Actually suggested by me a couple of years ago.

[Nikitas]

Mikkie2 said:

"The most sensible way is to allow people to go back to their homes if they so choose. "

We should not confuse the territory of each component state with the property issue. This confusion has been at the root of Talat's view of Bizonality, and it is where he has it wrong.

Ownership is different from possession. I might own land in Karpasia but live in Paphos. My ethnicity and choice of residence does not affect my property rights to my land in Karpasia.

In order to avoid hardship for all those that are in possession of land they do not own, there can be a temporary system of low rents or some other means whereby their possession is not challenged without affecting the ownership of the land.

We must also think of the long term goal of the TC leaders to establish an ethnically homogenous statelet in the north of the island. The goal might have been realistic in the 50s, and even then it was based on worldviews formed by the population exchanges of the 1920s, it certainly is not realistic in the multicultural and multiethnic framework of the EU and the world of the 21st century.

The TC leadership must face up to the possibility that the majority of TCs in Cyprus might NOT WANT to live in the north. It is almost certain that the majority of them will have business and employment interests in the south. The TC leaderhip might end up with a fluid TC population that moves in and out of the north while the only permanent and fixed population will be the settlers. And even they might just use the north as a springboard for travel to other EU countries.

It is ironic that the the new realities on the ground act on the concept of BBF to turn it into something totally different than what was envisaged by its authors. The rigid structure envisaged by the TC and Turkish leadership is not only anachronistic, it is impossible to establish. The same goes for the so called property "solutions" proposed so far.

Until the TC side accepts these new realities the solution will be out of reach. In other words the TCs must abandon the long term goal of partition in the same way the GCs abandoned union with Greece. I know the partitionists here who reflexively clamor "Enosis" "Akritas" will deny it, but we all know the true nature of the problem. A true federation cannot be based on partition ideas of the past.

[denizaksulu]

President Talat: "The General Framework of the Solution to the Property Problem will Comprise of Compensation, Exchange and Restitution”

President Mehmet Ali Talat stated that the general framework of the solution to the property problem will comprise of compensation, exchange and restitution. He said that the Greek Cypriot side is more insistent on restitution, while the Turkish Cypriot side is taking into consideration all three options.

President Talat was answering the media’s questions on his return to the Presidential Palace following his meeting with Greek Cypriot Leader Demetris Christofias.

The President stated that the sides, today, responded to each others’ proposals on property. He said that in the next meeting on Thursday, the sides will put forward the criteria regarding the property issue. In response to a question on what these criteria are, Talat said:

“We are still working on it. Compensation, exchange and restitution are the basics. Within this framework, the sides will determine their positions on under what conditions these three options may be applied.”

Asked whether there is convergence on the property issue, President Talat said:

“It is difficult to answer this question now because the criteria will be put forward next week. We will be able to know more after the criteria are tabled. At the moment, we know the general framework of the solution of the property problem; and that is, compensation, exchange and restitution. We all know that the Greek Cypriot side is more insistent on restitution, while we are taking into consideration all three options…”

Asked whether there is a development on the issue regarding Turkish Cypriot football clubs, President Talat said he would not comment on the issue because it has been exploited.

In response to a question regarding the scar on Christofias’ nose, Talat stated that the Greek Cypriot leader had a small operation.

Lastly, asked about the Turkish Cypriot singer who is competing to represent South Cyprus in the Eurovision song contest, President Talat made clear that this is the personal choice of the singer.

Talat and Christofias will meet for the 19th time on 12 February.

AA/Translation: Press Office

Keep us posted Halil. It sounds like good news. Long may it continue.

I wonder how the 'double dipping crooks' will fare. Those that have been given Greek Cypriot property in exchange (eşdeğer) for the properties left behind in the south, then unceremoniously went and sold their 'real' properties in the south too. They should lose all rights to compensation (if not punished for 'double dealing').

[Kifeas]

Annan plan stated 1974 prices + inflation.

This bears no reality to the current property value.

Apply inflation of 2 or 3% yearly for 35 years and you won't get anywhere near the actual appreciation of property values in that time.

So, according to the plan, a house that would have cost £1000 in 1974 would be worth around £2400 in 2004 if the above formula is applied.

In real money, that £1000 house would actually now be worth £200000!

So basically, the Annan plan would be ripping off every single person who lost property during the invasion. A very fair and equitable solution - no wonder the TC's voted in favour of the plan!

If I am not mistaken, it wasn't 74 values plus inflation, but 74 values plus the average appreciation of property prices, since 1974, in similar areas which were not affected by the 1963 or 1974 events. This left the room open for any sort of interpretation or estimation, due to the fact that one could claim that any property in Cyprus was either positively or negatively affected by the 1963 or 1974 events. For example, a similar property of mine in Lapithos could be any other similar sea-side resort property in the southern part, i.e. Pafos, Pegeia, Polis Chrisochous, Latchi, etc. The value of seaside properties in these areas in 1974 was less than 1,000 CyP per donum, and now they are valued at least at 200,000 CyP per donum. This means that they appreciated by 200 times, and my properly in Lapithos which in 1974 was estimated at around 7,000 CyP per donum (it was indeed the most expensive land in Cyprus at the time,) should by this measure equate with 1,4 million CyP per donum. However, one would argue that such properties in the south have been positively affected by the 1974 events.

Since all sea side areas of southern Cyprus could be claimed that they have been positively affected, then other areas of not similar type could be used as a measure. The only areas that one cannot claim they were affected by the 1974 events, were the inland agricultural areas of Cyprus, which appreciated by only 10-12 times, since 1974. In this case, my property would be estimated at around 70-80,000 pounds per donum. However, if such a rule would have been adopted (the most likely scenario,) I would have been compelled to give out my property for much less than the actual market (trading) value that would have emerged immediately upon a solution, which would have been similar to that of similar areas in the south -i.e. approximately around say 200,000 CyP, due to the fact that properties in the north would have entered the same open market that currently exists in the south. In such a case, the TC person(s) that would have gained possession of my property in the north, would have gained an advantage of legally receiving property which they would have been able to immediately trade in the open market, at a price 2-3 times higher than the one I would have been compensated in 20-25 years down the road. At the same time, and due to the fact that the TC properties that would have been relinquished in the south, would have been considerably less than the ones the GCs would have been required to relinquish in the north; chances are there would not have been enough TC properties in the south which I could possibly acquire, under similar terms and with the use of the bonds and stocks I would have received in exchange of my relinquished property in the north.

The end result of the A-plan’s property “arrangements,” would have been that the majority of GCs would have been left with papers in their hands, worth much less than the actual trading (market) value of their relinquished properties, upon and immediately after a solution, and even so; they would be waiting for (20+) years in order to be able to cash their bonds, and only if there would have been money available through the property board, and assuming that it wouldn't have collapsed in the meantime. The plan was a scum aiming to favor the TC community, in the expense of the GC refugees; more accurately to favor all those from the TC community that had managed all these years to gain unlawful and illegitimate access and possession of GC properties in the north, regardless of them having had relinquished property in the south or not, plus all those foreigners and mainland Turkish buddies of Denktash (see how many from those involved in the Ergenegon are now reviled to have been given large sums of GC properties in the north,) in exchange for their services in promoting the Turkish national cause in Cyprus. Indeed, all these scumbags would have become rich overnight, in a legalized way.