Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

Dear Miltiades, when Zan & Co. face facts and realities they follow a certain tactic.
Either they direct the subject of the thread by jumping in another subject or they just call you names and insult you.
Do you blame them? I don't. This is how they grew up and this is how they learned to behave. It comforts them by believing that the rest of us are just "stupid", "clowns" "bitches" "murderers" etc etc etc.

+10

Vuryek welcome back !!

[DT.]

What gets my goat are those seeing an ideal as an option in the complicated Cyprus problem.....No one should lose and no one should gain is an impossibility. Compromise and restraint is what is needed....Not Idealistic rants that only help to fuel the anger.

This is 2009, and here we are often talking about democracy yet you still go on about segregationist percentages and that… how do you differ from the people of the past?

You call the Cyprus problem “complicated”… well you’re damn right it’s complicated if some insist on favoritism and reject a fare & square democracy.

In 1960, favoritism was granted to the Turkish Cypriots without the consent of the Greek Cypriots via a democratic referendum, and what did you gain from it? Violence!

In 2009, what are your leaders aiming for? Favoritism again! So what have they learned from the past? NOTHING!

What u ignorantly call "favouritism" is officially known as "consociationalism".

Did you notice that they all ignored that last time you mentioned it!!!

Go ahead and give it a fancy name you can’t pronounce for all the difference it’ll make…

“Cyprus symbolized the most extreme case of consociationalism’s complete failure as the remedy for a thoroughly divided society. The Cypriot consociational experiment begun with the 1960 constitution introduced a very rigid formula for achieving a delicate balance between the two groups’ desires: the majority Greek Cypriot preference for a unitary state and the minority Turkish Cypriot demands for recognition as a separate political entity. Although making up only 20% of the population, the Turkish inhabitants of Cyprus were given prime status as one of the state’s two communities.”

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2004/02/17/ ... macedonia/

It failed completely because the ultra-nationalist elements within the GC community and Greece exerted extremely to make it fail.

Strange then that the GC and TC Missaouli and Kavazogilou who represented bi-communal friendship were assasinated by the TMT. Judging by your post above you'd think the TMT was a left-wing tree hugging society dedicated to peace and organic washing up liquid.

[insan]

What gets my goat are those seeing an ideal as an option in the complicated Cyprus problem.....No one should lose and no one should gain is an impossibility. Compromise and restraint is what is needed....Not Idealistic rants that only help to fuel the anger.

This is 2009, and here we are often talking about democracy yet you still go on about segregationist percentages and that… how do you differ from the people of the past?

You call the Cyprus problem “complicated”… well you’re damn right it’s complicated if some insist on favoritism and reject a fare & square democracy.

In 1960, favoritism was granted to the Turkish Cypriots without the consent of the Greek Cypriots via a democratic referendum, and what did you gain from it? Violence!

In 2009, what are your leaders aiming for? Favoritism again! So what have they learned from the past? NOTHING!

What u ignorantly call "favouritism" is officially known as "consociationalism".

Did you notice that they all ignored that last time you mentioned it!!!

Go ahead and give it a fancy name you can’t pronounce for all the difference it’ll make…

“Cyprus symbolized the most extreme case of consociationalism’s complete failure as the remedy for a thoroughly divided society. The Cypriot consociational experiment begun with the 1960 constitution introduced a very rigid formula for achieving a delicate balance between the two groups’ desires: the majority Greek Cypriot preference for a unitary state and the minority Turkish Cypriot demands for recognition as a separate political entity. Although making up only 20% of the population, the Turkish inhabitants of Cyprus were given prime status as one of the state’s two communities.”

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2004/02/17/ ... macedonia/

It failed completely because the ultra-nationalist elements within the GC community and Greece exerted extremely to make it fail.

Strange then that the GC and TC Missaouli and Kavazogilou who represented bi-communal friendship were assasinated by the TMT. Judging by your post above you'd think the TMT was a left-wing tree hugging society dedicated to peace and organic washing up liquid.

Kavazoglu "assassinated" by Enosists, before he was assassinated by TMT.

AKEL’s Enosis Policy and the Kavazoglu Tragedy
Although Dervis Ali Kavazoglu fought with all his might for ‘the cause’ despite difficulties, he was deeply sorry for the events that took place in 1964. The reason was not just the bloodshed between the two communities but also that AKEL, the party that he was a proud member of, had decided to return to their Enosis policy, which drove him to take a stand of political solidarity. AKEL had indeed returned to their Enosis policy in 1964, leaving their 1960 “completion of Independence” policy. Kavazoglu had objected to division all his life and he even put his life at stake in order to defend his cause. Now, especially after the establishment of the independent Republic of Cyprus, it was unacceptable to him that the Party had once again gone back to Enosis. His disappointment is obvious in the lines written by Vanezos. In a speech about the fighting in Erenkoy/Mansura made by Hambis Michaelides, a member of the Central Committee, he said “The blood of the Greek Cypriots and their Greek brethren got mixed up in Mansura,” which caused Kavazoglu deep sorrow. When talking about this incident with Vanezos, Kavazoglu, with his head between his hands, could not help but ask: “Then why am I fighting this war?”
He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.

Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (...) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (...) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.

AKEL Enosis self-criticism
Kavazoglu’s predictions were verified by political events in the days to follow when his party AKEL finally had to accept his prophecy regarding the issue, but, unfortunately their ‘apology’ came 25 years too late. AKEL made an announcement of self-criticism on January 27, 1990 - exactly 25 years after the Kavazoglu assassination – when it admitted that pursuing their Enosis policy during the years 1964-1967 was a “mistake”.
So, you see AKEL officially accepted Dervis Ali Kavazoglu’s words said in the beginning of the 60s twenty-five years later in 1990.

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=2771

When it concerns abt politics; never trust a Hellene.

[Vuryek]

Dear Miltiades, when Zan & Co. face facts and realities they follow a certain tactic.
Either they direct the subject of the thread by jumping in another subject or they just call you names and insult you.
Do you blame them? I don't. This is how they grew up and this is how they learned to behave. It comforts them by believing that the rest of us are just "stupid", "clowns" "bitches" "murderers" etc etc etc.

+10

Vuryek welcome back !!

thanks

[DT.]

What gets my goat are those seeing an ideal as an option in the complicated Cyprus problem.....No one should lose and no one should gain is an impossibility. Compromise and restraint is what is needed....Not Idealistic rants that only help to fuel the anger.

This is 2009, and here we are often talking about democracy yet you still go on about segregationist percentages and that… how do you differ from the people of the past?

You call the Cyprus problem “complicated”… well you’re damn right it’s complicated if some insist on favoritism and reject a fare & square democracy.

In 1960, favoritism was granted to the Turkish Cypriots without the consent of the Greek Cypriots via a democratic referendum, and what did you gain from it? Violence!

In 2009, what are your leaders aiming for? Favoritism again! So what have they learned from the past? NOTHING!

What u ignorantly call "favouritism" is officially known as "consociationalism".

Did you notice that they all ignored that last time you mentioned it!!!

Go ahead and give it a fancy name you can’t pronounce for all the difference it’ll make…

“Cyprus symbolized the most extreme case of consociationalism’s complete failure as the remedy for a thoroughly divided society. The Cypriot consociational experiment begun with the 1960 constitution introduced a very rigid formula for achieving a delicate balance between the two groups’ desires: the majority Greek Cypriot preference for a unitary state and the minority Turkish Cypriot demands for recognition as a separate political entity. Although making up only 20% of the population, the Turkish inhabitants of Cyprus were given prime status as one of the state’s two communities.”

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2004/02/17/ ... macedonia/

It failed completely because the ultra-nationalist elements within the GC community and Greece exerted extremely to make it fail.

Strange then that the GC and TC Missaouli and Kavazogilou who represented bi-communal friendship were assasinated by the TMT. Judging by your post above you'd think the TMT was a left-wing tree hugging society dedicated to peace and organic washing up liquid.

Kavazoglu "assassinated" by Enosists, before he was assassinated by TMT.

AKEL’s Enosis Policy and the Kavazoglu Tragedy
Although Dervis Ali Kavazoglu fought with all his might for ‘the cause’ despite difficulties, he was deeply sorry for the events that took place in 1964. The reason was not just the bloodshed between the two communities but also that AKEL, the party that he was a proud member of, had decided to return to their Enosis policy, which drove him to take a stand of political solidarity. AKEL had indeed returned to their Enosis policy in 1964, leaving their 1960 “completion of Independence” policy. Kavazoglu had objected to division all his life and he even put his life at stake in order to defend his cause. Now, especially after the establishment of the independent Republic of Cyprus, it was unacceptable to him that the Party had once again gone back to Enosis. His disappointment is obvious in the lines written by Vanezos. In a speech about the fighting in Erenkoy/Mansura made by Hambis Michaelides, a member of the Central Committee, he said “The blood of the Greek Cypriots and their Greek brethren got mixed up in Mansura,” which caused Kavazoglu deep sorrow. When talking about this incident with Vanezos, Kavazoglu, with his head between his hands, could not help but ask: “Then why am I fighting this war?”
He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.

Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (...) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (...) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.

AKEL Enosis self-criticism
Kavazoglu’s predictions were verified by political events in the days to follow when his party AKEL finally had to accept his prophecy regarding the issue, but, unfortunately their ‘apology’ came 25 years too late. AKEL made an announcement of self-criticism on January 27, 1990 - exactly 25 years after the Kavazoglu assassination – when it admitted that pursuing their Enosis policy during the years 1964-1967 was a “mistake”.
So, you see AKEL officially accepted Dervis Ali Kavazoglu’s words said in the beginning of the 60s twenty-five years later in 1990.

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=2771

When it concerns abt politics; never trust a Hellene.

Who assissinated them? TMT
Why did TMT assassinate them? Lets see if you can answer that one? Was it cause they were a threat to the TC's and TMT killed these 2 men in self defense?

[YFred]

What gets my goat are those seeing an ideal as an option in the complicated Cyprus problem.....No one should lose and no one should gain is an impossibility. Compromise and restraint is what is needed....Not Idealistic rants that only help to fuel the anger.

This is 2009, and here we are often talking about democracy yet you still go on about segregationist percentages and that… how do you differ from the people of the past?

You call the Cyprus problem “complicated”… well you’re damn right it’s complicated if some insist on favoritism and reject a fare & square democracy.

In 1960, favoritism was granted to the Turkish Cypriots without the consent of the Greek Cypriots via a democratic referendum, and what did you gain from it? Violence!

In 2009, what are your leaders aiming for? Favoritism again! So what have they learned from the past? NOTHING!

What u ignorantly call "favouritism" is officially known as "consociationalism".

Did you notice that they all ignored that last time you mentioned it!!!

Go ahead and give it a fancy name you can’t pronounce for all the difference it’ll make…

“Cyprus symbolized the most extreme case of consociationalism’s complete failure as the remedy for a thoroughly divided society. The Cypriot consociational experiment begun with the 1960 constitution introduced a very rigid formula for achieving a delicate balance between the two groups’ desires: the majority Greek Cypriot preference for a unitary state and the minority Turkish Cypriot demands for recognition as a separate political entity. Although making up only 20% of the population, the Turkish inhabitants of Cyprus were given prime status as one of the state’s two communities.”

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2004/02/17/ ... macedonia/

It failed completely because the ultra-nationalist elements within the GC community and Greece exerted extremely to make it fail.

Strange then that the GC and TC Missaouli and Kavazogilou who represented bi-communal friendship were assasinated by the TMT. Judging by your post above you'd think the TMT was a left-wing tree hugging society dedicated to peace and organic washing up liquid.

Kavazoglu "assassinated" by Enosists, before he was assassinated by TMT.

AKEL’s Enosis Policy and the Kavazoglu Tragedy
Although Dervis Ali Kavazoglu fought with all his might for ‘the cause’ despite difficulties, he was deeply sorry for the events that took place in 1964. The reason was not just the bloodshed between the two communities but also that AKEL, the party that he was a proud member of, had decided to return to their Enosis policy, which drove him to take a stand of political solidarity. AKEL had indeed returned to their Enosis policy in 1964, leaving their 1960 “completion of Independence” policy. Kavazoglu had objected to division all his life and he even put his life at stake in order to defend his cause. Now, especially after the establishment of the independent Republic of Cyprus, it was unacceptable to him that the Party had once again gone back to Enosis. His disappointment is obvious in the lines written by Vanezos. In a speech about the fighting in Erenkoy/Mansura made by Hambis Michaelides, a member of the Central Committee, he said “The blood of the Greek Cypriots and their Greek brethren got mixed up in Mansura,” which caused Kavazoglu deep sorrow. When talking about this incident with Vanezos, Kavazoglu, with his head between his hands, could not help but ask: “Then why am I fighting this war?”
He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.

Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (...) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (...) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.

AKEL Enosis self-criticism
Kavazoglu’s predictions were verified by political events in the days to follow when his party AKEL finally had to accept his prophecy regarding the issue, but, unfortunately their ‘apology’ came 25 years too late. AKEL made an announcement of self-criticism on January 27, 1990 - exactly 25 years after the Kavazoglu assassination – when it admitted that pursuing their Enosis policy during the years 1964-1967 was a “mistake”.
So, you see AKEL officially accepted Dervis Ali Kavazoglu’s words said in the beginning of the 60s twenty-five years later in 1990.

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=2771

When it concerns abt politics; never trust a Hellene.

Who assissinated them? TMT
Why did TMT assassinate them? Lets see if you can answer that one? Was it cause they were a threat to the TC's and TMT killed these 2 men in self defense?

Not sure if this was rhetorical or not, but here goes.
These two lovely people were trying to wake up the Moderate Cypriot people to the dangers of the path of Enosis/Taksim and the effects it would have on all Cypriots.
Both eoka and tmt wanted them dead.
It just so happens that tmt got to them first. To make things even worse personally, the rumour has it that it was Lurucadi tmt that killed them. The only positive coming out of this incident is that as they were being shot, they hugged each other.

DT, you should be ashamed of trying to score points about such an incident just because tmt got to them first.
We have plenty to learn from these people. They gave their lives up for us.

I want to see two statues one on each side of Lefkosa for these two hugging.

[miltiades]

The did indeed give their lives for us Fred. All that we have to give is a little empathy and understanding of each others fears and concerns for the future . We start by working to promote our one common denominator and that it is that we all Cypriots and that we all consider Cyprus as our motherland.

[YFred]

The did indeed give their lives for us Fred. All that we have to give is a little empathy and understanding of each others fears and concerns for the future . We start by working to promote our one common denominator and that it is that we all Cypriots and that we all consider Cyprus as our motherland.

Milt,

Let me put this to you. see what you think.

Between you and me we are going to have an agreement. We will start living together. But if I start to kick the shit out of you, that person over there must have no right to come and help you.

Put simply, if GC' have no intention of agreeing on the Turkish Guaranty, why are they sitting at the negotiating table.

From personal experience, I can tell you that if the Guaranty is removed, the vote of the TC's will be 98% against. If not, than if the GC will also refuse with guaranty of turkey then the current talks are total waste of time even talking.

Legalistically speaking, and I am not a lawyer. The Guaranty was between 3 countries, and can only be removed if all three want it.
How on earth do you expect to convince the turks to remove it.
You have a better chance of walking to the moon than doing that.

[miltiades]

The did indeed give their lives for us Fred. All that we have to give is a little empathy and understanding of each others fears and concerns for the future . We start by working to promote our one common denominator and that it is that we all Cypriots and that we all consider Cyprus as our motherland.

Milt,

Let me put this to you. see what you think.

Between you and me we are going to have an agreement. We will start living together. But if I start to kick the shit out of you, that person over there must have no right to come and help you.

Put simply, if GC' have no intention of agreeing on the Turkish Guaranty, why are they sitting at the negotiating table.

From personal experience, I can tell you that if the Guaranty is removed, the vote of the TC's will be 98% against. If not, than if the GC will also refuse with guaranty of turkey then the current talks are total waste of time even talking.

Legalistically speaking, and I am not a lawyer. The Guaranty was between 3 countries, and can only be removed if all three want it.
How on earth do you expect to convince the turks to remove it.
You have a better chance of walking to the moon than doing that.

As a moderate and a true Cypriot that I'm this is how I see Turkeys role as a guarantor. NIL AND VOID.
Almost 35 years ago she exercised her guarantor rights by invading Cyprus , ethnically cleansing some 200 thousand Cypriots from their ancestral homes , set about changing the demographics by installing more than 200 thousand settlers , acts which were not compatible with her status as a guarantor power for Cyprus's independence and territorial integrity. Can you really see the populace at large agreeing to this third world nation THAT HEADS THE LIST OF VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS , renewing her guarantor status which she so flagrantly abused ?
Common sense has to prevail if a solution is to be worked out.
Turkey in 1974 should have carried out the duties as per her guarantor status NOT BECOME AN OCCUPYING POWER ..

[YFred]

The did indeed give their lives for us Fred. All that we have to give is a little empathy and understanding of each others fears and concerns for the future . We start by working to promote our one common denominator and that it is that we all Cypriots and that we all consider Cyprus as our motherland.

Milt,

Let me put this to you. see what you think.

Between you and me we are going to have an agreement. We will start living together. But if I start to kick the shit out of you, that person over there must have no right to come and help you.

Put simply, if GC' have no intention of agreeing on the Turkish Guaranty, why are they sitting at the negotiating table.

From personal experience, I can tell you that if the Guaranty is removed, the vote of the TC's will be 98% against. If not, than if the GC will also refuse with guaranty of turkey then the current talks are total waste of time even talking.

Legalistically speaking, and I am not a lawyer. The Guaranty was between 3 countries, and can only be removed if all three want it.
How on earth do you expect to convince the turks to remove it.
You have a better chance of walking to the moon than doing that.

As a moderate and a true Cypriot that I'm this is how I see Turkeys role as a guarantor. NIL AND VOID.
Almost 35 years ago she exercised her guarantor rights by invading Cyprus , ethnically cleansing some 200 thousand Cypriots from their ancestral homes , set about changing the demographics by installing more than 200 thousand settlers , acts which were not compatible with her status as a guarantor power for Cyprus's independence and territorial integrity. Can you really see the populace at large agreeing to this third world nation THAT HEADS THE LIST OF VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS , renewing her guarantor status which she so flagrantly abused ?
Common sense has to prevail if a solution is to be worked out.
Turkey in 1974 should have carried out the duties as per her guarantor status NOT BECOME AN OCCUPYING POWER ..

That is another mine field which should be discussed in another thread.
There are many questions that are unanswered.
If there was only the coupists, why did the Cypriot army, not remove them before the Turkey came to the equation.

Ecevit clearly said this was a peace mission, and hoped that GC's would not fire on them when they came in to remove the coupists.
The Turkish army came under heavy fire, as soon as they landed. From the whole of the Cypriot army and Militias.
This fact itself suggests that the GC army was in cahoots with the conspirators.

How can we make sound judgments if so much truth is hidden from us?

I feel like a mushroom. Growing in the dark and being fed bullshit.