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THE ABSURD BY ZAN: MILTIADES A MURDERING SCUM !!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:36 pm

DT. wrote: Yfred, in 1963 the constitution was bankrupting the govt and the stalemate in taxes and municpalities made it unworkable. Amendments were proposed and the results are well known. Are you now asking us to agree to aonther unworkable solution, try to amend it later and give every tom, dick and harry the opportunity to blow the whole thing up again?


DT, the then circumstances and current circumstances r different. The main motive behind the clashes of 63 was the "self determination" right, "majority rule", "minority rights" for TCs, hate towards ex-"colonialists" by Hellenes... under the then circumstances there were also intense clashes among right wing, left wing ideologies, coups and dictatorships.

There's no cold-war, coups and dictatorships in our region anymore. Even the hatred against ex-"colonialists" fading away day by day. Most of the leftists welcomed globalism, began digesting it and keep pace with it.
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Postby DT. » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:37 pm

insan wrote:
DT. wrote: Yfred, in 1963 the constitution was bankrupting the govt and the stalemate in taxes and municpalities made it unworkable. Amendments were proposed and the results are well known. Are you now asking us to agree to aonther unworkable solution, try to amend it later and give every tom, dick and harry the opportunity to blow the whole thing up again?


DT, the then circumstances and current circumstances r different. The main motive behind the clashes of 63 was the "self determination" right, "majority rule", "minority rights" for TCs, hate towards ex-"colonialists" by Hellenes... under the then circumstances there were also intense clashes among right wing, left wing ideologies, coups and dictatorships.

There's no cold-war, coups and dictatorships in or region anymore. Even the hatred against ex-"colonialists" fading away day by day. Most of the leftists welcomed globalism, began digesting it and keep pace with it.


I would rather you explain that to the partitionists on this forum who insist that nothing has changed. Maybe you can start with Zan.
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Postby zan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:04 pm

DT. wrote:
insan wrote:
DT. wrote: Yfred, in 1963 the constitution was bankrupting the govt and the stalemate in taxes and municpalities made it unworkable. Amendments were proposed and the results are well known. Are you now asking us to agree to aonther unworkable solution, try to amend it later and give every tom, dick and harry the opportunity to blow the whole thing up again?


DT, the then circumstances and current circumstances r different. The main motive behind the clashes of 63 was the "self determination" right, "majority rule", "minority rights" for TCs, hate towards ex-"colonialists" by Hellenes... under the then circumstances there were also intense clashes among right wing, left wing ideologies, coups and dictatorships.

There's no cold-war, coups and dictatorships in or region anymore. Even the hatred against ex-"colonialists" fading away day by day. Most of the leftists welcomed globalism, began digesting it and keep pace with it.


I would rather you explain that to the partitionists on this forum who insist that nothing has changed. Maybe you can start with Zan.


He has started with you the partitionist...As long as you support the "RoC" who supports the annexation of my rights to GCs and to Greece, then you are a partitionist..Simple as that....
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:57 pm

YFred wrote:Temper temper. You are not the only one who lost land and friends in Cyprus. You had a chance in 2004 to get it back, and you missed it. You will have another chance and will probably vote the same. Then you will kiss it goodbye. That’s not a wish it’s a prediction.
The strange thing is that in 2004, Morfuites even knowing that they would loose their homes, voted yes in the last vote. You just haven’t got a clue, and never will.


YFred,

As a TC myself, I would recommend that you read this article by Perry Anderson (about 40 pages) and come back and tell us which parts of his reporting you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!

I took the liberty to give you some quotes from this report to induce you to read more.!

I'll be waiting for your comments when you are ready.!

The Divisions of Cyprus
by Perry Anderson

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n08/ande01_.html

"A fourth edition of the UN plan was adjusted to meet Turkish demands, and a final, non-negotiable version – Annan V – was announced on the last day of March. A jubilant Erdogan told his people that it was the greatest victory of Turkish diplomacy since the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, sealing Kemal’s military triumph over Greece."

"The second element of the plan covered territory, property and residence. The Greek state would comprise just over 70 per cent, the Turkish state just under 30 per cent, of the land surface of Cyprus; the Greek state just under 50 per cent, the Turkish state just over 50 per cent, of its coast-line. Restitution of property seized would be limited to a maximum of a third of its area or value, whichever was lower, the rest to be compensated by long-term bonds issued by the federal government at tax-payers’ cost, and would carry no right of return. Of those expelled from their homes, the maximum number allowed to recover residence, over a period of some twenty years, would be held below a fifth of the population of each zone, while just under 100,000 Turkish settlers and incomers would become permanent residents and citizens in the north."

"that, for all the jungle of technical modifications that developed across its five versions, the essence of the ‘Annan’ plan remained unaltered throughout. It contained three fundamental elements. The first prescribed the state that would come into being. The Republic of Cyprus, as internationally recognised for forty years repeatedly – repeatedly so by the UN itself – would be abolished, along with its flag, anthem and name."

"The future Cypriot state would drop all claims in the European Court of Human Rights, and last but not least, bind itself in advance to vote for Turkish entry into the EU."

"A real settlement on the island can only come from within it, rather than being externally imposed, as invariably to date."

"A constitution with meticulous safeguards against any form of discrimination, and genuinely equitable compensation for losses on all sides, is a far better guarantee of the welfare of a minority than provocative over-representation in elected bodies, or preordained gridlock in the state, neither durably sustainable. To devise a political system that meets these goals is hardly beyond the bounds of contemporary constitutional thought."

"The more lasting result has been the granting of a large number of official Cypriot documents to Turks with legitimate rights on the island (by spring 2005, some 63,000 birth certificates, 57,000 identity cards and 32,000 passports), reflecting the magnet of EU membership, and economic growth well above the Union average."

"When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?"
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Postby insan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:10 pm

Kikapu wrote:
YFred wrote:Temper temper. You are not the only one who lost land and friends in Cyprus. You had a chance in 2004 to get it back, and you missed it. You will have another chance and will probably vote the same. Then you will kiss it goodbye. That’s not a wish it’s a prediction.
The strange thing is that in 2004, Morfuites even knowing that they would loose their homes, voted yes in the last vote. You just haven’t got a clue, and never will.


YFred,

As a TC myself, I would recommend that you read this article by Perry Anderson (about 40 pages) and come back and tell us which parts of his reporting you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!

I took the liberty to give you some quotes from this report to induce you to read more.!

I'll be waiting for your comments when you are ready.!

The Divisions of Cyprus
by Perry Anderson

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n08/ande01_.html

"A fourth edition of the UN plan was adjusted to meet Turkish demands, and a final, non-negotiable version – Annan V – was announced on the last day of March. A jubilant Erdogan told his people that it was the greatest victory of Turkish diplomacy since the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, sealing Kemal’s military triumph over Greece."

"The second element of the plan covered territory, property and residence. The Greek state would comprise just over 70 per cent, the Turkish state just under 30 per cent, of the land surface of Cyprus; the Greek state just under 50 per cent, the Turkish state just over 50 per cent, of its coast-line. Restitution of property seized would be limited to a maximum of a third of its area or value, whichever was lower, the rest to be compensated by long-term bonds issued by the federal government at tax-payers’ cost, and would carry no right of return. Of those expelled from their homes, the maximum number allowed to recover residence, over a period of some twenty years, would be held below a fifth of the population of each zone, while just under 100,000 Turkish settlers and incomers would become permanent residents and citizens in the north."

"that, for all the jungle of technical modifications that developed across its five versions, the essence of the ‘Annan’ plan remained unaltered throughout. It contained three fundamental elements. The first prescribed the state that would come into being. The Republic of Cyprus, as internationally recognised for forty years repeatedly – repeatedly so by the UN itself – would be abolished, along with its flag, anthem and name."

"The future Cypriot state would drop all claims in the European Court of Human Rights, and last but not least, bind itself in advance to vote for Turkish entry into the EU."

"A real settlement on the island can only come from within it, rather than being externally imposed, as invariably to date."

"A constitution with meticulous safeguards against any form of discrimination, and genuinely equitable compensation for losses on all sides, is a far better guarantee of the welfare of a minority than provocative over-representation in elected bodies, or preordained gridlock in the state, neither durably sustainable. To devise a political system that meets these goals is hardly beyond the bounds of contemporary constitutional thought."

"The more lasting result has been the granting of a large number of official Cypriot documents to Turks with legitimate rights on the island (by spring 2005, some 63,000 birth certificates, 57,000 identity cards and 32,000 passports), reflecting the magnet of EU membership, and economic growth well above the Union average."

"When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?"



From David Hannay

Perry Anderson’s ‘The Divisions of Cyprus’ contained many perceptive comments and it was valuable to have such a succinct overview of the modern history of, and recent efforts to, resolve the Cyprus dispute, now, happily, about to be resumed. There was, however, a good deal of invective, some of it distinctly overdone. To describe Alvaro De Soto, the UN secretary-general’s special adviser on Cyprus, who put together the Annan Plan (yes, he did it, not me), as a ‘dim Peruvian functionary’, without even referring to his role as a successful mediator in the resolution of the Civil War in El Salvador and his many years of distinguished service as a UN official, is plain ungracious. To refer to Didier Pfirter, De Soto’s legal adviser, as ‘an obscure scrivener from the crannies of Swiss diplomacy’, while in the best tradition of Graham Greene’s Harry Lime, is to overlook his remarkable skill in drafting a large number of complex legal instruments which, for the first time in the long history of the Cyprus dispute, comprised a comprehensive basis for a settlement, albeit one then rejected in the Greek Cypriot referendum. And to insult Günther Verheugen as a ‘German Widmerpool’, when he pulled off the most significant and transformational enlargement in the European Union’s history, is trivial. I will not dwell on the somewhat less virulent barbs directed towards me except to say that, if Perry Anderson had read my memoir on Cyprus more carefully, he would have seen that I explicitly criticised Britain’s performance in the colonial and post-colonial period; I do not therefore consider it justified to call me a ‘lineal successor’ of those who directed British policy in those days.

More seriously, ‘The Divisions of Cyprus’ takes an exceedingly partisan (Greek Cypriot) view of recent events. It is thus another in a long tradition whereby non-Cypriot academic commentators on the Cyprus Problem seem to become even more parti pris than the Cypriots themselves. The fact that Anderson’s two heroes are Theo Pangalos and Tassos Papadopoulos, two men who, together with Rauf Denktash, probably did more than anyone else in recent times to prevent negotiation of a solution to the Cyprus Problem is surely a tell-tale indicator.

What is needed now, in the somewhat more promising atmosphere created by the election of a new Greek Cypriot president and the resumption of direct contact between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, is to give the protagonists the time and space to work together on a solution, to get away from the zero-sum mentality which regards any move to help one side as necessarily detrimental to the other, and for outsiders, including academic commentators, to exercise the greatest care and reticence when it comes to describing and characterising the recent past.

David Hannay
London W4

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Postby insan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:14 pm

From Reed Coughlan

Perry Anderson writes that the British government manipulated Turkish fears in the 1950s to produce ‘the intractable reality of a community that felt itself entitled as of right to a disproportionate share of power on the island, yet continually lived on its nerves as if under imminent siege’. He goes on to say that the constitution handed to Cyprus in 1960 ‘had inflated the Turkish position in the state far beyond what a minority of its size could in normal circumstances have claimed’. While the intractable reality may be fairly described in this way, it did not originate from British manipulation of Turkish fears nor did it derive from the provisions of the 1960 constitution. The sense of entitlement in the Turkish Cypriot community developed much earlier. The Turks ruled Cyprus for three centuries and they have never become accustomed to being treated as a minority. In 1882, for example, shortly after the British took over the administration of the island they proposed the creation of a legislative council based on proportional representation, comprising nine Greeks and three Turks. (Cyprus was not ‘acquired by Britain from the Ottoman Empire’ in 1878, as Anderson claims: Turkey maintained sovereignty over the island until Britain annexed Cyprus in 1914.) The Turks protested because they saw it as undermining their rightful position and status as former rulers. ‘The project of proportional representation in the Legislative Council is in every respect detrimental to our rights and destructive of the safety we enjoy,’ they said.

To this day Turkish Cypriots bridle at the use of the term ‘minority group’. Their refusal to be treated as such is anchored in geography and politics. Turkey is forty miles away and is the stronger and more strategically valued member of Nato. The true intractable reality is that the Turkish Cypriots are a minority on the island but belong to a majority group in the region, while the Greek Cypriots are a majority on the island but a minority in the region. This situation gives rise to fears in both communities.


Reed Coughlan
State University of New York, Utica

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n10/letters.html
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Postby RichardB » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:27 pm

YFred wrote:
Temper temper. You are not the only one who lost land and friends in Cyprus. You had a chance in 2004 to get it back, and you missed it. You will have another chance and will probably vote the same. Then you will kiss it goodbye. That’s not a wish it’s a prediction.
The strange thing is that in 2004, Morfuites even knowing that they would loose their homes, voted yes in the last vote. You just haven’t got a clue, and never will.


While not confessing to having read the annan plan in any great detail the below which I read on another forum would seem to give a good indication as to why the citizens of the ROC felt unable to vote yes to the plan


Reasons for the approval of the Annan Plan Turkish Cypriot view

* Reunification was desired for economic reasons.
* Many Turkish Cypriots no longer perceived the Greek Cypriots as a threat, especially in the light of the strictly bi-zonal proposition of the Annan plan.
* Turkish Cypriots would receive considerable constitutional power in the United Cyprus Republic that the Annan plan proposed, over-proportional to their percentage of the population.
* The Turkish Cypriot component state would still, even after territorial cessation of some areas to the Greek Cypriot component state, make up 28.5 percent of the total area of Cyprus, including large economically important areas that where inhabitated exclusively by Greek Cypriots prior to the division of Cyprus in 1975.
* The right of return of Greek Cypriots to their homes in the areas coming under the control of the Turkish Cypriot component state would be strictly limited if not, insome cases, forbidden, thus the possibility of Turkish Cypriots becoming a minority in their respective component state would not exist.
* The guarantor powers to the constitution of Cyprus would retain their powers as such, thus Turkey would still have the arguable right to intervene in Cypriot affairs, most definitely on behalf of the Turkish Cypriots.

Reasons for the rejection of the Annan Plan Greek Cypriot Point of view

* The Ethnic groups in Cyprus are Greek 77%, Turkish 18%, other 5% of the population. (2001) The Annan plan equates the representation of the two major ethnic groups in the to be Senate and in the Supreme Court giving 50-50 representation to the two communities. The majority becomes minority in important decision centers.
* The plan created a confederation even though it utilized the term "federation" because there was no hierarchy of laws, while central authority emanated from the so-called component states. Note that the United States abandoned its original confederal structure because it was unworkable. In 1783, a federal constitution was established containing a clear federal supremacy clause. The Supreme Court composed of equal numbers of Greek Cypriot (77% of population) and Turkish Cypriot (18% of population) judges, plus three foreign judges; thus foreign actors would cast deciding votes.
* The Plan did not include a settlement regarding the repatriation of Turkish settlers living on Greek Cypriot owned land in the 'Northern Cyprus', while after 19 years, the possibility of abolishing the derogation of 5% of Greeks and Turkish citizens who could settle in Cyprus, is obvious, and the danger of a permanent mass settling of Cyprus by Turkey is visible.
* Nearly all the Turkish settlers would be granted citizenship or residence rights leading to citizenship. The central government would have limited control towards future Turkish Immigration. Those settlers opting to return to Turkey would be compensated by Cyprus and Greek Cypriots. Even though Turkey systematically brought in the settlers to alter the demography of the island, it had no responsibility for their Repatriation.
* The Plan simply disregarded the plain language and clear meaning of the Geneva Convention of 1949, section III, article 49, which prohibits colonization by an occupying power. Article 49 states in its last paragraph: "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
* The Plan did not deal in full with the demilitarisation of the illegal 'TRNC', and Greek Cypriots felt they had no reason to believe Turkish promises concerning the withdrawal of troops.
* Cyprus would be excluded from the European Common Defense and Foreign Policy, while Turkish troops would remain in Cyprus even after the accession of Turkey to the EU with intervention rights (a military invasion - occasionally used euphemistically) in the Greek Cypriot component state.
* Many Greek Cypriots interpreted the Right of Return policy as to be seriously flawed, meaning only 20% of Greek Cypriot refugees would be able to return over a time frame of 25 years, whereas Turkish Cypriots would have had full right of return.The plan denied to all Cypriots rights enjoyed by all other EU citizens (right of free movement and residence, the right to apply to work in any position (including national civil services, the right to vote).
* Turkish Cypriots would have gained all the basic demands it made, from the first day of the implementation of the solution. To be exact, 24 hours after the holding of the referendum. In contrast, everything that the Greek Cypriots were aspiring to achieve, would have postponed without guarantees and depend upon the good will of Turkey to fulfil the obligations it undertakes. They are also subject to the precondition that all would have gone well.
* The return of the Turkish occupied land will take place in the period between three and a half months and three and a half years from the moment the solution is signed with no guarantees whatsoever that this shall be implemented. The Cypriot-Greek proposal of placing these areas under the control of the UN Peace Keeping Force and not the Turkish army has been rejected.
* The Plan did not address the issue of the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) on the island, although parts of the SBAs would be transferred to the governments of the two consituent states.
* The British were granted rights to unilaterally define the continental shelf and territorial waters along two base areas and to claim potential mineral rights. Under the 1959-1960 London Zurich agreements, Britain did not have such rights (see the 2nd annex to the Additional Protocol to the 1959 Treaty of Establishment).
* The plan absolved Turkey of all responsibility for its invasion of Cyprus and its murders, rapes, destruction of property and churches and looting and forcing approximately 200,000 Greek Cypriots from their homes and property. The Cyprus government filed applications to the European Commission on Human Rights on September 17, 1974 and on March 21, 1975. The Commission issued its report on the charges made in the two applications on July 10, 1976. In it the Commission found Turkey guilty of violating the following articles of the European Convention on Human Rights:

1.. Article 2 - by the killing of innocent civilians committed on a substantial scale;

2.. Article 3 - by the rape of women of all ages from 12 to 71;

3.. Article 3 - by inhuman treatment of prisoners and persons detained;

4.. Article 5 - by deprivation of liberty with regard to detainees and missing persons - a continuing violation;

5.. Article 8 - by displacement of persons creating more than 180,000 Greek Cypriot refugees,and be refusing to allow the refugees to return to their homes.

* The plan failed to provide payment by Turkey:

1.. for the lives of innocent civilians killed by the Turkish army;

2.. for the victims of rape by the Turkish army;

3.. for the vast destruction of property and churches by the Turkish army; and

4.. for the substantial looting by the Turkish army.

* The Plan subverted the property rights of the Greek Cypriots and other legal owners of property in the occupied area:

•by prohibiting recourse to European courts on property issues;

•by withdrawing all pending cases at the European Court of Human Rights and transferring them to local courts;

•by allowing Turkish Cypriots and illegal mainland Turk settlers/colonists to keep Greek Cypriot homes and property they were illegally given following Turkey's invasion of Cyprus and not having to reimburse the rightful owners of the property for 30 years of illegal use;

•by a highly complicated, ambiguous and uncertain regime for resolving property issues and which is based on the principle that real property owners can ultimately be forced to give up their property rights which would violate the European Convention on Human Rights and international law. The Greek Cypriot property owners would have to be reimbursed by the to be federal treasury which would be funded overwhelmingly by the Greek Cypriots, meaning that Greek Cypriots would be reimbursing themselves.

* The Plan would have the effect of protecting those British citizens who illegally bought Greek Cypriot property from settlers or persons who are not owners; in the occupied north of Cyprus. They would, in effect, not be held responsible for their illegal action.
* The cost of economic reunification would be borne by the Greek Cypriots. The reunification cost has been estimated close to $20b
* Following Annan 5 plan the Greek Cypriots would not have been allowed to make up more than 6% of the population in any single village in the Turkish controlled areas in the north thus they would have been prevented from setting up their own schools for their children and would not have even been able to give birth once this quota was reached.

According to UN 260 resolution Genocide is: (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

* The agreement places time restrictions in the right of free, permanent installation of Greek Cypriots back to their homes and properties in the to be Turkish Cypriot state, which constitutes a deviation from the European Union practices. Those Greek Cypriot refugees that would return to their homes in regions under Turkish Cypriot administration would have no local civil rights, because the political representatives of Turkish Cypriot state would be elected only from Turkish Cypriots.
* The functional weaknesses of the Plan endanger, inter alia, the smooth activity and participation of Cyprus, with one voice, in the European Union. While the Greek Cypriots have with many sacrifices achieved Cyprus accession to the European Union, the Greek Cypriots could very easily be led to the neutralization of the accession until the adoption of all necessary federal and regional legal measures or the loss of the benefits of the accession or the facing of obstacles in Cyprus participation in the Economic and Monetary Union and other European institutions.
* The Economy of Cyprus would have been separate with the plan. There will be no common Monetary policy, fiscal policy and no investments by Greek Cypriot businesses shall be allowed in the Turkish Cypriot constituent state.


On reading the above it seems only natural to me that the TCs would accept the plan and the GCs reject it
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:05 pm

Insan,

Now that you posted couple of totally useless articles on two individuals bitching about nothing regarding Perry Anderson or his article on "The Division of Cyprus", why don't you answer the question put to YFred since you are such a "good reader". Here is the question again.

Kikapu wrote:As a TC myself, I would recommend that you read this article by Perry Anderson (about 40 pages) and come back and tell us which parts of his reporting you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!


So tell us Mr/Ms critique, which parts of his reporting do you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!

It's a simple question and I'm not interested in your stupid game playing antics. Either answer the damn question or don't say anything at all, which is the best thing for you to do at times.!
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Postby insan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:34 pm

Kikapu wrote:Insan,

Now that you posted couple of totally useless articles on two individuals bitching about nothing regarding Perry Anderson or his article on "The Division of Cyprus", why don't you answer the question put to YFred since you are such a "good reader". Here is the question again.


R sure what i posted in quotes were "couple of totally useless articles on two individuals bitching about nothing regarding Perry Anderson or his article on "The Division of Cyprus""? reread with ur pair of glasses on, dear.

Kikapu wrote: As a TC myself, I would recommend that you read this article by Perry Anderson (about 40 pages) and come back and tell us which parts of his reporting you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!


Kikapu wrote:So tell us Mr/Ms critique, which parts of his reporting do you disagree with, that despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots.!


What i mainly disagree is seen clearly what i quoted from "2 individuals" namely Reed Coughlan and David Hannay.

www.un.org/News/dh/hlpanel/hannay-bio.htm
http://www.esc.edu/ESConline/Across_ESC ... enDocument

Kikapu wrote:It's a simple question and I'm not interested in your stupid game playing antics. Either answer the damn question or don't say anything at all, which is the best thing for you to do at times.!


Ok ma master, embryonic "ape" Kikapu. :lol: Not despite what went on, that the Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots but Annan Plan should have been accepted regardless by all Cypriots in awareness of what's really happened in the past, what were the inevitable consequences, since Cyprus is in a US founded EU; keeping the pace with rapidly globalizing world and trying to reconcile with what's happened in the past. Hope it satisfies u ma master, embryonic "ape" Kikapu. :lol:
Last edited by insan on Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Oracle » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:40 pm

I agree ... Insan is a horder who cannot distinguish between junk which has to be chucked out, and important information which is worth disseminating ... :D
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