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EOKA B': Why were they so bad? Last stance against Taksim?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:17 am

zan wrote:
insan wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Bananiot wrote:Are you being serious? You expect people to reply to the above?


Only if they have something to add ... which you clearly don't!

There are good and bad points to most things. However, you just see good in Turks and Bad in GCs ... therefore, maybe you do not count.

We hear about the bad of EOKA B' ... mostly that they were on their guard against Taksim!

Is that bad or good in your opinion?


Please tell us again when ENOSIS reared its ugly head and when Takisim did???? :roll: :roll:


Irrelevant ... EOKA B' was opposed to Taksim to the very end and this is what materialised when they made their one fatal flaw, overthrowing Makarios at the behest of and in unison with the Greek junta .... A testament of their desperation at the continued daily threat of pending Taksim ... a reality since at least 1964.



So Mrs Biologist you......The cure always comes before the disease hey!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes Zan ... prevention is better than cure!

But maybe they weren't allowed to exercise preventative measures against Taksim, because the Turkish Lobby was so strong (read Turkish Taksim Propaganda).

Maybe the Turks' made EOKA B' seem worse than they were ....


Again....What came first...ENOSIS or Takisim?????Even you cannot prepare a cure if you don't know the illness.....Stop talking rubbish...I am beginning o feel embarrassed for you...Soooooooooooooo. We can use this to say that ENOSIS was the disease and Taksim was the cure...... 8) 8)


Zan, althogh Enosis movement was the first arrived and gave birth to Taksim, we still need to examine the Enosis movement in correlation of Nationalist movement of Hellenes. After the French revolution of 1789 nationalism was all around the world. Instead of blaming the Enosis, Enosists and the then nationalists; we should examine it in correlation with independence of Greece, the then Greek nationalism and historical backgrond of Hellenes and Turks..



From the Megali idea to ENOSIS, which is a word adapted by the church into politics, I personally do not think it has anything to do with the nationalist, only in that the church and the government used them to further their aims. Nationalist do not stand a chance if the rest of he country is not with them as with he BNP in the UK......IMHO...I am willing to be corrected!! :D


Zan, u need to use a reverse analogly to get the complete picture of what's what. Put Turks into the place of Greeks u will probably see that most probably Turks of Cyprus would have done almost the same or similar things to the Hellenes of Cyprus and most probably the Hellenes of Cyprus would have resisted against it how Turks of Cyprus resisted. :wink:
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:24 am

insan wrote:
zan wrote:
insan wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Bananiot wrote:Are you being serious? You expect people to reply to the above?


Only if they have something to add ... which you clearly don't!

There are good and bad points to most things. However, you just see good in Turks and Bad in GCs ... therefore, maybe you do not count.

We hear about the bad of EOKA B' ... mostly that they were on their guard against Taksim!

Is that bad or good in your opinion?


Please tell us again when ENOSIS reared its ugly head and when Takisim did???? :roll: :roll:


Irrelevant ... EOKA B' was opposed to Taksim to the very end and this is what materialised when they made their one fatal flaw, overthrowing Makarios at the behest of and in unison with the Greek junta .... A testament of their desperation at the continued daily threat of pending Taksim ... a reality since at least 1964.



So Mrs Biologist you......The cure always comes before the disease hey!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes Zan ... prevention is better than cure!

But maybe they weren't allowed to exercise preventative measures against Taksim, because the Turkish Lobby was so strong (read Turkish Taksim Propaganda).

Maybe the Turks' made EOKA B' seem worse than they were ....


Again....What came first...ENOSIS or Takisim?????Even you cannot prepare a cure if you don't know the illness.....Stop talking rubbish...I am beginning o feel embarrassed for you...Soooooooooooooo. We can use this to say that ENOSIS was the disease and Taksim was the cure...... 8) 8)


Zan, althogh Enosis movement was the first arrived and gave birth to Taksim, we still need to examine the Enosis movement in correlation of Nationalist movement of Hellenes. After the French revolution of 1789 nationalism was all around the world. Instead of blaming the Enosis, Enosists and the then nationalists; we should examine it in correlation with independence of Greece, the then Greek nationalism and historical backgrond of Hellenes and Turks..



From the Megali idea to ENOSIS, which is a word adapted by the church into politics, I personally do not think it has anything to do with the nationalist, only in that the church and the government used them to further their aims. Nationalist do not stand a chance if the rest of he country is not with them as with he BNP in the UK......IMHO...I am willing to be corrected!! :D


Zan, u need to use a reverse analogly to get the complete picture of what's what. Put Turks into the place of Greeks u will probably see that most probably Turks of Cyprus would have done almost the same or similar things to the Hellenes of Cyprus and most probably the Hellenes of Cyprus would have resisted against it how Turks of Cyprus resisted. :wink:


Honestly..I am not denying that....The momentum would have carried it through...The denials now of what really happened is the problem as far as I a concerned. We can never be sure of what MIGHT have happened in other scenarios. I always remember a Mr. Bloom telling us the story of a suicide gone wrong. The guy on his way to jumping off a bridge was attacked by an axe murderer and he defended himself.... :wink: :lol:
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Postby insan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:43 am

zan wrote:
insan wrote:
zan wrote:
insan wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Bananiot wrote:Are you being serious? You expect people to reply to the above?


Only if they have something to add ... which you clearly don't!

There are good and bad points to most things. However, you just see good in Turks and Bad in GCs ... therefore, maybe you do not count.

We hear about the bad of EOKA B' ... mostly that they were on their guard against Taksim!

Is that bad or good in your opinion?


Please tell us again when ENOSIS reared its ugly head and when Takisim did???? :roll: :roll:


Irrelevant ... EOKA B' was opposed to Taksim to the very end and this is what materialised when they made their one fatal flaw, overthrowing Makarios at the behest of and in unison with the Greek junta .... A testament of their desperation at the continued daily threat of pending Taksim ... a reality since at least 1964.



So Mrs Biologist you......The cure always comes before the disease hey!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Yes Zan ... prevention is better than cure!

But maybe they weren't allowed to exercise preventative measures against Taksim, because the Turkish Lobby was so strong (read Turkish Taksim Propaganda).

Maybe the Turks' made EOKA B' seem worse than they were ....


Again....What came first...ENOSIS or Takisim?????Even you cannot prepare a cure if you don't know the illness.....Stop talking rubbish...I am beginning o feel embarrassed for you...Soooooooooooooo. We can use this to say that ENOSIS was the disease and Taksim was the cure...... 8) 8)


Zan, althogh Enosis movement was the first arrived and gave birth to Taksim, we still need to examine the Enosis movement in correlation of Nationalist movement of Hellenes. After the French revolution of 1789 nationalism was all around the world. Instead of blaming the Enosis, Enosists and the then nationalists; we should examine it in correlation with independence of Greece, the then Greek nationalism and historical backgrond of Hellenes and Turks..



From the Megali idea to ENOSIS, which is a word adapted by the church into politics, I personally do not think it has anything to do with the nationalist, only in that the church and the government used them to further their aims. Nationalist do not stand a chance if the rest of he country is not with them as with he BNP in the UK......IMHO...I am willing to be corrected!! :D


Zan, u need to use a reverse analogly to get the complete picture of what's what. Put Turks into the place of Greeks u will probably see that most probably Turks of Cyprus would have done almost the same or similar things to the Hellenes of Cyprus and most probably the Hellenes of Cyprus would have resisted against it how Turks of Cyprus resisted. :wink:


Honestly..I am not denying that....The momentum would have carried it through...The denials now of what really happened is the problem as far as I a concerned. We can never be sure of what MIGHT have happened in other scenarios. I always remember a Mr. Bloom telling us the story of a suicide gone wrong. The guy on his way to jumping off a bridge was attacked by an axe murderer and he defended himself.... :wink: :lol:


U got it zan but what u still haven't got is that the need of undertanding the other side as well as u understood ur side. It's not hard to examine the events, movements and actions in correlation of local, national and universal events, movements and actions... and don't cause u loose anything. To the contrary, u would gain a broaden perspective and get a more peaceful outcome that would have not been accusatory but constructive. U may defend urself by saying look what some other Hellenes done and still have been doing then gimme advices but i will tell u, never follow "others" behavours as an example to urself. Just my 2 cents bro. :)
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:00 am

Insan wrote:
U got it zan but what u still haven't got is that the need of undertanding the other side as well as u understood ur side. It's not hard to examine the events, movements and actions in correlation of local, national and universal events, movements and actions... and don't cause u loose anything. To the contrary, u would gain a broaden perspective and get a more peaceful outcome that would have not been accusatory but constructive. U may defend urself by saying look what some other Hellenes done and still have been doing then gimme advices but i will tell u, never follow "others" behavours as an example to urself. Just my 2 cents bro.



I first came to this Forum and found a racist and insulting Forum of Hellenes working themselves into a lather and I was attacked from the first post. I admit hat I retaliate often here but it seems we all fall into that pit eventually. Even a few of the fellows that I related to as being as being as liberal as me. :wink:

I have read loads on why the Hellenes did what they did but that only explains not excuses. The GCs on this Forum accept neither an explanation or the excuses.....They make up their own. I have explained and provided proof of what I wanted to say and all have been ignored.....I am no longer interested in telling these guys anything but showing up their lies and inconsistencies. I am glad that guys and girls like you are here to retell, better than I ever could, the truths behind the stories but time will not allow me to do that at the moment. I try to stay off the ranting but even that is sometimes very hard :oops: :lol:
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Postby insan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:04 am

zan wrote:Insan wrote:
U got it zan but what u still haven't got is that the need of undertanding the other side as well as u understood ur side. It's not hard to examine the events, movements and actions in correlation of local, national and universal events, movements and actions... and don't cause u loose anything. To the contrary, u would gain a broaden perspective and get a more peaceful outcome that would have not been accusatory but constructive. U may defend urself by saying look what some other Hellenes done and still have been doing then gimme advices but i will tell u, never follow "others" behavours as an example to urself. Just my 2 cents bro.



I first came to this Forum and found a racist and insulting Forum of Hellenes working themselves into a lather and I was attacked from the first post. I admit hat I retaliate often here but it seems we all fall into that pit eventually. Even a few of the fellows that I related to as being as being as liberal as me. :wink:

I have read loads on why the Hellenes did what they did but that only explains not excuses. The GCs on this Forum accept neither an explanation or the excuses.....They make up their own. I have explained and provided proof of what I wanted to say and all have been ignored.....I am no longer interested in telling these guys anything but showing up their lies and inconsistencies. I am glad that guys and girls like you are here to retell, better than I ever could, the truths behind the stories but time will not allow me to do that at the moment. I try to stay off the ranting but even that is sometimes very hard :oops: :lol:


Now i felt how hard u try ur best not to hurt "others". :wink:
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:15 am

insan wrote:
zan wrote:Insan wrote:
U got it zan but what u still haven't got is that the need of undertanding the other side as well as u understood ur side. It's not hard to examine the events, movements and actions in correlation of local, national and universal events, movements and actions... and don't cause u loose anything. To the contrary, u would gain a broaden perspective and get a more peaceful outcome that would have not been accusatory but constructive. U may defend urself by saying look what some other Hellenes done and still have been doing then gimme advices but i will tell u, never follow "others" behavours as an example to urself. Just my 2 cents bro.



I first came to this Forum and found a racist and insulting Forum of Hellenes working themselves into a lather and I was attacked from the first post. I admit hat I retaliate often here but it seems we all fall into that pit eventually. Even a few of the fellows that I related to as being as being as liberal as me. :wink:

I have read loads on why the Hellenes did what they did but that only explains not excuses. The GCs on this Forum accept neither an explanation or the excuses.....They make up their own. I have explained and provided proof of what I wanted to say and all have been ignored.....I am no longer interested in telling these guys anything but showing up their lies and inconsistencies. I am glad that guys and girls like you are here to retell, better than I ever could, the truths behind the stories but time will not allow me to do that at the moment. I try to stay off the ranting but even that is sometimes very hard :oops: :lol:


Now i felt how hard u try ur best not to hurt "others". :wink:


If I am not misinterpreting your meaning then I do try hard. There are a few that I do not give a monkeys about and few that I have a banter with and it seems they like it...GR being one of them. Shame he can't keep up with me though...He will never be a Boomerang!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:54 am

...the idea of splitting the island in two dates back to the 19th century; then as now suiting the interlocutors who gave it their support. Enosis as an ideal dates back to that time too (re: Lord Byron), although the ideas were not connected.

EOKA led a fight for liberation, or to be more precise a struggle for freewill; the choice of the overwhelming population to be as Individuals, Persons, with the identity of their choosing.

Cypriots, having won the struggle to end their subjugation were free to sustain the Communities from which they originated. EOKA B, like Takists, did not pursue this Principal because they were more preoccupied with the power which they could wrest for themselves, from the general population over which they sought an exclusivity.

Clearly they are different, EOKA A and B, because the latter failed in its aim without the support of the population it claimed to be a vanguard for.

EOKA is no more, yet Takism continues to blight this island's dwellers with the support of Turkey.

...only the Goodwill that we can offer each other remains as a solution, toward ending the bigotry which leaves the Intolerant with so much power over our pursuit for the respect which is natural, amongst Human beings.
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:09 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...the idea of splitting the island in two dates back to the 19th century; then as now suiting the interlocutors who gave it their support. Enosis as an ideal dates back to that time too (re: Lord Byron), although the ideas were not connected.

EOKA led a fight for liberation, or to be more precise a struggle for freewill; the choice of the overwhelming population to be as Individuals, Persons, with the identity of their choosing.

Cypriots, having won the struggle to end their subjugation were free to sustain the Communities from which they originated. EOKA B, like Takists, did not pursue this Principal because they were more preoccupied with the power which they could wrest for themselves, from the general population over which they sought an exclusivity.

Clearly they are different, EOKA A and B, because the latter failed in its aim without the support of the population it claimed to be a vanguard for.

EOKA is no more, yet Takism continues to blight this island's dwellers with the support of Turkey.

...only the Goodwill that we can offer each other remains as a solution, toward ending the bigotry which leaves the Intolerant with so much power over our pursuit for the respect which is natural, amongst Human beings.


RW...The idea of ENOSIS is not over and never will be.....Please try to imagine what will happen in the future. At the present, ENOSIS is not a good idea because of the two vetoes of Greece and the "RoC", although I accept that only one is needed. Greece can sit back and say that it is the "RoC" that has objections to Turkey joining the EU and look like they mean it. In the future of the EU there are plans to do away with the veto and have proportional representation. This then will give he green light to the "RoC" to have their ENOSIS with Greece and a greater voice in the combined numbers. The "RoC" will be a little fish if it does not do so...I do not believe for one minute that Turkey has any plans for Taksim because it does not need the numbers but a foothold in Cyprus through the TC people. Taksim has been made unavailable by the EU whereas ENOSIS has not and in fact will make it more necessary in the future, for GCs that is.
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Postby insan » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:14 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...the idea of splitting the island in two dates back to the 19th century; then as now suiting the interlocutors who gave it their support. Enosis as an ideal dates back to that time too (re: Lord Byron), although the ideas were not connected.

EOKA led a fight for liberation, or to be more precise a struggle for freewill; the choice of the overwhelming population to be as Individuals, Persons, with the identity of their choosing.

Cypriots, having won the struggle to end their subjugation were free to sustain the Communities from which they originated. EOKA B, like Takists, did not pursue this Principal because they were more preoccupied with the power which they could wrest for themselves, from the general population over which they sought an exclusivity.

Clearly they are different, EOKA A and B, because the latter failed in its aim without the support of the population it claimed to be a vanguard for.

EOKA is no more, yet Takism continues to blight this island's dwellers with the support of Turkey.

...only the Goodwill that we can offer each other remains as a solution, toward ending the bigotry which leaves the Intolerant with so much power over our pursuit for the respect which is natural, amongst Human beings.



Hi dude, :wink:

I wonder how u would explain the leadership of 2 EOKAS being the same man, Grivas. While the leader and his political stance were always the same, what makes EOKA and EOKA-B distinct? Another aspect of 2 EOKA's i wonder is what percent of ex-EOKA men joined the forces of EOKA-B? With a rational guess i could say that almost all right winger ex-EOKA men joined EOKA-B... Why only right wingers? Becase Enosis was not in interest of left wing EOKA men while Greece was under power of fascist Greek Junta. My presumption is that if the fascist Greek Junta had fallen in 1969 or 1970, 71.., most probably all ex-EOKA men would have joined EOKA-B to struggle for Enosis again.

As to the end of Enosis, if Greece and GC administration haven't been in EU, there would have been still an Enosis struggle i guess...
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Postby yialousa1971 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:50 am

Oracle wrote:
YFred wrote:Having achieved their government, surely their stance on enosis makes them treasonous, never mind the women and children they have killed. Oh, dear dear me.
Your first statement was so right. You don't know much about them.


Relatively speaking ... how much worse were EOKA B' than EOKA, who were Freedom fighters against the Brits and towards self-determination. How much worse were they than the Taksim seeking TMT and other Turkish organisations, seeking to divide the Island?

How many did they kill, compared to those casualties of TMT ... who killed both TCs and GCs.

Who was worse in the end for Cyprus? They fought against the pending Taksim, which was a very real threat as we now know.

Taksim won ..... maybe EOKA B' were right all along ....


When we examine the evidence below from the Turks mouths we can see that!

TMT was the outcome of Turkey's cooperation with the colonial power, and was the means of frustrating the wishes of the majority of the population of Cyprus,
dividing Greek and Turkish Cypriot and beginning the long path towards partition.

The organization was set up by Mr Rauf Denktash. "I had set up the TMT with a few friends...Everybody thought that I was the leader, but I was not. I was political advisor. Immediately after forming it I handed it over... The leaders were former army officers from Turkey."
(The Times, 20.1.1978)

Dr Kuchuk takes up the story with an account of how Riza Vurushkan came to Cyprus from Turkey to lead TMT.
"Year 1957...in order to give daily reports to Ankara...and to secure aid from Turkey I used to go to Ankara very frequently. During one of these visits, the late Prime Minister of Turkey, Adnan Menderes, introduced Riza Vurushkan to me...Later I met him at the office of a Lieutenant General and talked with him there. During our meeting it was decided that Vurushkan should come to
Cyprus as "civilian adviser". He arrived in Cyprus under an assumed name and settled down here."
(Halkin Sesi, 16.2.1979)

TMT incited anti-Greek riots and tried to force Turkish Cypriot workers to establish separate trade unions.

Murder, arson and intimidation were the means that TMT used in order to prove that Greek and Turkish Cypriots could not live together. The victims were trade unionists, journalists and ordinary Turkish Cypriots who resisted TMT's call.

After the signing of the Zurich and London Agreements in 1959, which led to the independence of Cyprus, TMT continued its clandestine activities in the cause of dividing Cyprus, and was to continue until 1984 as Mr Ozgur was to
reveal.

In October, 1959, seven months after the signing of the agreements on Cyprus independence, the British mine-sweeper HMS Burmaston intercepted the Turkish
boat "Deniz" as it was attempting to deliver a shipment of arms to TMT in Cyprus.

Despite TMT terrorism, the mass of Greek and Turkish Cypriots citizens entered hopefully into the period of independence.



Some TMT attacks against Turkish Cypriots, May-July, 1958



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- 22.5.58: Murder attempt against Ahmet Sadi, Director of the Turkish Office of the Pancyprian Workers Federation. In order to save his life, Sadi left Cyprus soon after and settled in England.

- 24.5.48: Murder of Fazil Onder, Chief Editor of the weekly newspaper "Inkilapci".

- 29.5.58: Murder of Ahmet Yahya, committee member of the progressive Turkish Cypriot Athletic-Cultural Centre.

- 5.6.58: Murder attempt against Hasan Ali, member of a Construction Workers Committee of the Pancyprian Labour Federation.

- 30.6.58: Murder of Ahmet Ibrahim, a barber from Limassol, because he had friendly relations with Greek-Cypriots and expressed himself in favour of Greek-Turkish cooperation.

- 3.7.58: Murder attempt against Arif Hulusi Barudi. He was working in a business owned by a Greek Cypriot. Before the attempt he had received a threatening letter demanding that he leave his job.

"Going ...back... to our schooldays... I don't think that the generation of that age, the boys of that age... had any cause for alarm for the future... were years when people who are now in our age group knew there was British
"repression" on the island... We were just boys in the English School; Greek and Turkish boys living probably in the same street in opposite houses, playing together, fighting together... As a boy I remember going around with my father to Greek monasteries all over Cyprus, to Greek houses, and being entertained by Greeks on an equal footing as friends, good friends. They used to come to
our house, too, and the reason, I now believe, looking back, is that we had no political quarrel, no political bone to pick".

Rauf Denktash at a Rotary Club Luncheon 1n 1972
in R. Denktash, "The Cyprus Problem", 1974.


"In 1954 I felt great anxiety about Cyprus.
...
Harold Macmillan was urging us to stir up the Turks in order to neutralise the Greek agitation. I wrote a minute in opposition to this tactic. I also asked the Prime Minister's private secretary if I could see Churchill on the subject,
but he absolutely refused even to pass on the suggestion, which he clearly regarded as impertinence."
C.M. Woodhouse, "Something Ventured", 1982.



TMT Leaflet Circulated on 7 May 1958:
"Oh Turkish Youth! The day is near when you will be called upon to sacrifice your life and blood in the "PARTITION" struggle - the struggle for freedom... You are a brave Turk.
You are faithful to your country and nation and are entrusted with the task of demonstrating Turkish might. Be ready to break the chains of slavery with your determination and willpower and with your love of freedom. All Turkdom, right and justice and God are with you. PARTITION OR DEATH."
quoted in Nancy Crawshaw "The Cyprus Revolt", 1978.


"Although the nucleus of the first Turkish Cypriot political party was organized in 1942, it was not until 1955 that the Turkish Cypriot community became politically active. Within the next three years, a community political
structure was developed as a result not only of efforts of Turkish Cypriot leaders to oppose Enosis, but also of encouragement from the British and Turkish officials who were seeking to safeguard their countries' strategic
interests."
Dr Fazil Kuchuk in interview to R.A.Patrick, Doctoral
Dissertation, London School of Economics and
Political Science, 1972.


"The early stages of the Cyprus conflict, in the mid-1950's, were mainly a struggle between the Greek Cypriots and the British Colonial power, with the Turks at that time hardly interested in the island. There is strong evidence that the British Government of the day deliberately encouraged an indifferent Turkey to take more active interest, as a useful counterweight in the struggle against the Greeeks. One of the most violent expressions of this artificially contrived Turkish indignation was on the night of 6th-7th September 1955, when a terrifying Turkish mob destroyed quantities of Greek property in Instanbul. It should be noted that at the Yassaida trials in 1960 evidence was given by the defence witnesses that the Turkish Government had been put up to staging a Cyprus demonstration by the then British Foreign Secretary Harold Macmillan, but that the demonstration, mis-managed by Menderes, had degenerated into an
uncontrollable riot".
David Hotham, "The Turks", 1972.


"When the armed struggle started, the British had at their disposal thousands of men and could even increase their existing numbers to put down the EOKA struggle. This they did not do, but they formed instead the well known Auxiliary
Corps. The ordinary Turkish Cypriots, who did not realize where the British were leading them (since their leadership did not warn them, rather it encouraged them), hastened to reinforce this Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing
a living. Thus, the Greek Cypriots, who thought that they were waging a holy struggle against the British, found themselves facing the Turkish Cypriots. In this way
the British started submitting to the Turkish community their plans for partition."
Ibrahim Aziz, "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981
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