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Well put Makarios

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:27 am

Piratis, since you talk so much about the Kurds in Turkey, perhaps you should make an effort to learn about their genuine aspirations. The following open letter, signed by many respected members of this community, might make a good starting point.

http://www.institutkurde.org/activites_ ... in_turkey/

December 8, 2004

The Kurds make up about a quarter of the population of Turkey, numbering between 15 and 20 million, according to the October 2004 Report of the European Commission.
Like all historically constituted human communities, they have the right to live in dignity in the land of their ancestors, and to preserve their identity, culture and language and hand them down freely to their children.
Having been victims of great injustice throughout the 20th century, the Kurds now pin their hopes for a better future on the process Turkey must undergo to become a member of the European Union, which they perceive as being, above all, a multicultural area of peace, democracy and pluralism. To join this family of democracies, Turkey itself must become a true democracy, with respect for its own cultural diversity and political pluralism. In particular, it must guarantee its Kurdish citizens the same rights that the Basques, Catalans, Scots, Lapps, South Tyroleans and Walloons enjoy in the democratic countries of Europe - and which it is itself demanding for the Turkish minority in Cyprus.
Public conscience will not abide a policy of double standards, which would eventually undermine the moral credibility of the European Union and tarnish the image of the Turkish government in European public opinion.
The European process offers both Turks and Kurds new and promising prospects, and gives them a chance for reconciliation on the basis of a peaceful settlement of the Kurdish question, with due respect for existing borders. This opportunity must be appreciated at its true value.
We the undersigned, representing Kurdish society in all its political and cultural diversity, consider that such a settlement calls for:
• a new and democratic Constitution, recognising the existence of the Kurdish people, and guaranteeing it the right to a public school system and media in its own language and the right to form its own organisations, institutions and parties with the aim of contributing to the free expression of its culture and its political aspirations.
• a general amnesty in order to establish a climate of confidence and reconciliation and, once and for all, to turn the page on violence and armed conflict;
• the implementation, with European support, of a vast programme of economic development of the Kurdish region, particularly including rebuilding the more than 3,400 Kurdish villages destroyed in the 1990s, and incentives for the three million displaced Kurds to return to their homes.
We ask the Turkish authorities and the European leaders to do justice to the Kurds in Turkey by acceding to their legitimate demands in order to ensure regional peace and stability, and to consider the fulfilment of those demands to be an essential criterion by which to measure Turkey’s progress along the road to membership of the European Union.

FIRST SIGNATORIES — TURKEY : Mehmet ABBASOGLU, Former President of the People’s Democratic Party (Dehap), Songül Erol ABDIL, Mayor of Tunceli ; Nesimi ADAY, Poet, writer ; Müslüm AKALIN, barrister, President of the Bar at Urfa (Edessa) ; Nilüfer AKBAL, musician ; Abdullah AKENGIN, Mayor of Dicle ; Abdullah AKIN, former Mayor of Batman ; Ibrahim AKSOY, Former Mayor of Malatya ; Ihsan AKSOY, writer ; Haci AKYOL, barrister, former Mayor of Yazihan Malayta ; Yusuf ALATAS, barrister ; Mahmut ALINAK, barrister, former Member of Parliament for Sirnak ; Süleyman ANIK, Mayor of Dargeçit, Mardin ; Firat ANLI, Mayor of Yenisehir, Diyarbakir ; M. Nezir ARAS, Mayor of Bulanik ; Rusen ARSLAN, lawyer, writer ; Ismail ARSLAN, Mayor of Ceylanpinar ; Mehmet Ali ASLAN, barrister, former President of the Workers’ Party of Turkey (TIP) ; Naci ASLAN, Member of Parliament for Agri ; Sedat ASLANTAS, barrister, General Secretary of the Human Rights Foundation of Turkey ; Fahrettin ASTAN, Mayor of Besiri ; Nuran ATLI, Mayor of Mazidag ; Mustafa AVCI, General Secretary of the Confedaration of Public Service employees (KESK) ; Eshat AYATA, writer, publisher ; Sukran AYDIN, Mayor of Bismil ; Behrun AYGÖREN, former Mayor of Dicle ; Hüseyin AYYILDIZ, Secretary General of Tüm-Belsen ; Ihsan BABAOGLU, Spokesman for the Democratic Platform, Diyarbakir ; Tuncer BAKIRHAN, President of the People’s Democratic Party (Dehap) ; Murat BATGI, actor, Osman BAYDEMIR, Mayor of Diyarbakir ; Seyhmus BAYHAN, Mayor of Lice ; Mehmet Celal BAYKARA, barrister, President of the Foundation for Research on Kurdish Culture (KÜRTKAV) ; Sefik BEYAZ, President of the Istanbul Kurdish Institute ; Ekrem BILEK, former Mayor of Siirt ; Nevzat BINGÖL, journalist, writer ; Nadir BINGÖL, Mayor of Ergani ; Kemal BIRLIK, former Member of Parliament for Sirnak ; Murat BOZLAK, Former President of People’s Democratic Party (Hadep) ; Ali BUCAK, barrister, President of the Urfa Cultural Centre ; Aydin BUDAK, Mayor of Cizre ; Feridun ÇELIK, former Mayor of Diyarbakir ; Demir ÇELIK, Mayor of Varto ; Ömer ÇETIN, co-founder of the Research Foundation on Social Issues (TOSAV) ; Yusuf ÇETIN, President of the Contemporary free Actors’ Association (Çasod) ; Murat CEYLAN, Mayor of Kurtalan ; Emrullah CIN, Mayor of Viransehir ; Muzaffer DEMIR, Former Member of Parlement for Mus ; Selim DEMIR, Mayor of Kozluk ; Cafer DEMIR, President of Elazig Chapter of Human Rights Association ; Ahmet Turan DEMIR, President of the Free Society Party (OTP) ; Abdullah DEMIRTAS, Mayor of Suriçi, Diyarbakir ; Hatip DICLE, former Member of Parliament for Diyarbakir, former President of the Democracy Party (DEP) ; Ilhan DIKEN, President of the Diyarbakir Medical Assocoation ; Seyhmus DIKEN, writer ; Orhan DOGAN, former Member of Parliament for Sirnak ; Faik DURSUN, Mayor of Beytülsebap ; Tarik Ziya EKINCI, former Member of Parliament for Diyarbakir, former General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Turkey (TIP) ; Tahsin EKINCI, lawyer ; Adnan EKMEN, former Minister, former Member of Parliament for Batman ; Serafettin ELÇI, former Minister, former Member of Parliament for Mardin ; Nuretttin ELHÜSEYNI, writer, translator ; Giyasettin EMRE, former Member of Parliament for Mus ; Hamit ENGIN, Mayor of Hazro ; Mehmet Ali EREN, former Member of Parliament for Istanbul ; Ahmet ERTAK, Mayor of Sirnak ; Enver ETE, Spoksman for the Democratic Platform, Mardin ; Mehmet Fuat FIRAT, former Member of Parliament for Erzurum ; Ümit FIRAT, publisher, writer ; Ibrahim GÜÇLÜ, lawyer, writer ; Nezir GÜLCAN, former Mayor of Kurtalan (Siirt) ; Ahmet GÜMÜSTEKIN, painter ; Hasim HASIMI, former Member of Parliament for Diyarbakir, former Mayor of Cizre ; Necdet IPEKYÜZ, former President of the Diyarbakir Medical Association ; M. Tahir KAHAMANER, Mayor of Malazgirt ; Hüseyin KALKAN, Mayor of Batman ; Ramazan KAPAN, Mayor of Derik ; Hasip KAPLAN, barrister ; Seyhmus KARAHAN, former President of the Urfa Association of Civil Engineers ; Zülküf KARATEKIN, Mayor of Karapinar, Diyarbakir ; Selahattin KAYA, former Mayor of Bingöl ; Hasan KAYA, former President of the Istanbul Kurdish Institute ; Ferzende KAYA, journalist ; Mehmet KAYA, Mayor of Kocaköy, Diyarbakir ; Fikret KAYA, Mayor of Silvan ; Gülten KAYA, music publisher ; Eren KESKIN, former President of Istanbul Chapter of Human Rights Association of Turkey (IHD) ; Abdullah KESKIN, publisher ; Abdullah KIRAN, writer ; Muhsin KIZILKAYA, writer ; Servet KOCAKAYA, musicien ; Muhsin KONUR, Mayor of Silopi ; Burhan KORHAN, Mayor of Besiri ; Mukkades KUBILAY, Mayor of Dogubeyazid ; Cabbar LEYGARA, barrister, former Mayor of Baglar, Diyarbakir ; Ahmet MELIK, former Member of Parliament for Urfa ; Yilmaz ODABASI, poet; Hüsnü OKÇUOGLU, former Member of Parliament for Istanbul ; Selim ÖLÇER , former President of the Union of Medical Associations of Turkey ; Eyüp Sabri ÖNCEL, barrister, former President of the Urfa Bar ; Esat ÖNER, Mayor of Gercüs, Batman ; Mahmut ORTAKAYA, former President of the Diyarbakir ; Medical Association ; Selim ÖZALP, former Mayor of Siirt ; Sahabettin ÖZARSLANER, former Mayor of Van ; Mustafa ÖZER, barrister, former President of the Diyarbakir Bar ; Hicri ÖZGÖREN, poet ; Osman ÖZGÜVEN, Mayor of Dikili, Izmir ; Yurdusev ÖZSÖKMENLER, Mayor of Baglar, Diyarbakir ; Mesut ÖZTÜRK, former Mayor of Van ; Fadil ÖZTÜRK, poet ; Kemal PARLAK, spokesman of the Democratic Consensus and Initiative for a solution to the Kurdish Question (DEMOS) ; Selim SADAK, former Member of Parliament for Sirnak ; Resul SADAL, Mayor of Idil ; Ethem SAHIN, Mayor of Suruç ; Sirri SAKIK, former Member of Parliament for Mus, ; Rahmi SALTUK, musician ; Suzan SAMANCI, writer ; Menderes SAMANCILAR, actor ; Mehmet SANRI, publisher ; Naci SAPAN, President of the Association of Journalists of the South-East ; Mehmet Emin SEVER, former Member of Parliament for Mus ; Yasar SEYMAN, President of the Press Trade Union of Turkey (BAS-SEN), Former vice-President of People’s Republican Party (CHP) ; Enver SEZGIN, writer ; Emir Ali SIMSEK, General Secretary of the Teachers’ Union (Egitim-Sen) ; Cihan SINCAR, Mayor of Kiziltepe ; Mahmut SÖNMEZ, former Member of Parliament for Bingöl ; Mehmet TANHAN, Mayor of Nusaybin ; Sezgin TANRIKULU, barrister, President of the Diyarbakir Bar ; Nimet TANRIKULU, President of Tunceli Cultural Center ; Metin TEKÇE, Mayor of Hakkari ; Hursit TEKIN, Mayor of Semdinli ; Deniz TOPKAN, spokesman for the Democratic Platform, Batman ; Ahmet TULGAR, journalist ; Ferhat TUNÇ, musician ; Sehnaz TURAN, barrister, President of the Foundation for Research into Society and the Law (TOHAV) ; Ahmet TÜRK, former Member of Parliament for Mardin ; Sehmus ÜLEK, barrister, Vice-President of the MAZLUM-DER (Association for Human Rights) ; Rojin ÜLKER, singer ; Mehmet UZUN, writer ; Behlül YAVUZ, former General Secretary of the Diyarbakir shopkeepers and artisans Union ; Feridun YAZAR, former Mayor of Urfa, former President of the People’s Labour Party (HEP) ; Canip YILDIRIM, Publisher ; M. Salih YILDIZ, Mayor of Yüksekova ; Sedat YURTDAS, former Member of Parliament for Diyarbakir ; Leyla ZANA, Former member of Parliament for Diyarbakir, winner of the European Parliament’s Sakharov Prize ; Mehdi ZANA, Former Mayor of Diyarbakir ; Veysi ZEYDANLIOGLU, lawyer.


EUROPE — : Aso AGACE, Director of the Women’s Training Centre, Germany ; Salih AKIN, Lecturer at Rouen University, France ; Haci AKMAN, University Professor of Bergen, Norway ; Rohat ALAKOM, writer ; Stockholm Foundation for Kurdish Culture, Sweden ; Faruk ARAS, essayist, Sweden ; Nizamettin ARIÇ, musician and film director, Germany ; Günay ASLAN, journalist, Germany ; Mustafa AYDOGAN, writer, Sweden ; Kazim BABA, Politician, Germany ; Hêlîn Evrim BABA, member of the Berlin Regional Parliament, Germany ; Kurdo BAKSI, journalist, winner of the Olof Palme Peace Prize, Sweden ; Riza BARAN, President of the Fridriechhein-Kreuzberg, local Council, Germany ; Rojen BARNAS, writer and poet, Sweden ; Hamit BOZARSLAN, Lecturer at the School for Advanced Studies in Social Sciences, France ; Sermîn BOZARSLAN, Président of the Federation of the Kurdish associations in Sweden ; Serhat BUCAK, Lawyer, Germany ; Yilmaz ÇAMLIBEL, writer, Germany ; Firat CEWERÎ, writer and publisher, Sweden ; Ali ÇIFTÇI, publisher, Sweden ; Mûrad CIWAN, research worker, Sweden ; Faysal DAGLI, Journalist, Germany ; Mehmet DEMIR, President of the Federation of Kurdish Associations (YEKKOM), Germany ; Abdullrahman DURRE, former Mufti of Diyarbakir, Germany ; ELISHER, writer, Sweden ; Hasan Basri ELMAS, Lecturer at Paris-VIII University, France ; Derwesh FERHO, President of the Brussels Kurdish Institute, Belgium ; Foundation of Kurds from Anatolia, Sweden ; Gülistan GURBEY, Researcher, Germany ; Metin INCESU, Director of the Center for Kurdish Studies (Navend), Allemagne ; Haydar ISIK, journalist, Germany ; Ahmet KAHRAMAN, Journalist, Germany ; Yasar KAYA, Former President of the Democracy Party (DEP), Germany ; Ilhan KIZILHAN, University of Konstanz, Germany ; Cahit MERVAN, Journalist, Germany ; Hesenê METÊ, Writer, Sweden ; Kendal NEZAN, President of the Paris Kurdish Institute, France ; Ozz NÛJEN, actor, Sweden ; Nihal OTURAN, Research Engineer, France ; Mehmet Ali OTURAN, University Professor, France ; Nalin PEKGUL, President of the National Federation of Women Social-Democrats of Sweden, former Member of the Swedish Parliament ; Sivan PERWER, musician, Prise-winner of the Charles Cros Academy for the Music of the World, Germany ; REMZI, painter, Paris ; Serdar ROSHAN, writer, Sweden ; Mehmet SAHIN, Coordinator of the Kreise-Dialogue, Germany ; Giyasettin SAYAN, member of the Berlin Regional Parliament, Germany ; Abubekir SAYDAN, President of the International Center for Kurdish Human Rights, Germany ; Nizamettin TOGUÇ, Former member of Parliament for Batman, Holland ; Feleknas UCA, member of the European Parliament, Germany ; Ali YIGIT, Former member of Parliament for Mardin, President of the Union of Democratic Kurdish Federations in Europe (KONKURD), Holland ; Kerim YILDIZ, Executive Director ot the Kurdish Human Rights Project, London ; Kotan YILDIZ, Resarcher at the Technical University of Berlin, Reso ZÎLAN, Linguist, Sweden ; Ahmed ZÎREK, actor, France.
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Postby YFred » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:54 am

Tim its very simple. Turkey has to allow all the Kurds to vote to see what their wish is. The rest can be negotiated, with good will on both sides. Plenty of example where its worked. Unfortunately there more example where its not worked. Very thorny issue.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:02 am

I have found the following list of Kurdish villages in the Central Anatolian region of Turkey, bang in the middle of the country and well outside GR's map of Kurdistan. They number around 300 and are home to nearly one million people. Kurdish speakers have lived in these villages for centuries interspersed among villages whose inhabitans speak other languages and thus forming part of the delicate ethnic mosaic that constitutes Anatolia.

I suggest that somebody like Piratis selects one of these at random, goes there and explains to the local people that he, as a know-it-all foreigner who thinks he knows better than the people who live there what their hopes and aspirations should be, wants them to fight for an independent Kurdistan (even though this entity defies description in geographic terms) to which, following some glorious victory, they will be forced to move as refugees. He might find that these people actually have quite different ideas.

http://www.bydigi.net/cografya/5751-ic- ... yleri.html

Qonyê-Konya
Cihanbeyli
Beşkardeş
Beyliova
Bulduk(Gunde Bulduq)
Çimen
Çölköy
Damlakuyu
Beşkavak(Büyük)
Beşkavak(Küçük)
Gölyazı(Xalikan)
Günyüzü(Cudkan)
Kandil
Kelhasan
Kırıkışla(Molıka)
Kutukkuşağı(Kutiga)
Kuşca(Hacilaro)
Sağlık
Yapalı(Qemera)
Yeniceoba(İncove)
Zaferiye(Kayışoğlu)
Kulu
Acıkuyu(Birtalik)
Altılar
Arsinci(Germik)
Beşkardeş(Torına)
Burnagil
Bozan
Celep
Çöpler(Copli)
Dipdede
Gökler
Hisar
Karacadağ(Xalikan)
Karacadere
Kirkpınar
Şerefli
Yazıcıçayır(Mehina)
Yeşilyurt(Celikan)
Tavşançalı(Omaro)
Zincirlikuyu(Gordoğlu)
Sarayönü
Boyalı
Kadıoğlu
Sarıkaya
Yunak
Beşışıklı
Çayırbaşı
Hatırlı(Gunde xofe)
Hacıfakılı(Kamaran)
Hacıomeroğlu(Hacımaran)
Imamoğlu(Bodan)
Karayayla
Kurtuşağı(Kurdan)
Koçyazı(Civikan)
Meselij
Odabaşı(Halisinan)
Ortakışla
Özyayla
Saray(Golan ga)
Sinanlı
Sülüklü(Galikan)
Çeltik
Kaşören(Rengan)
Adakasim(Sorikan)
Büyükhasan
Isakuşağı(Sagan)
Küçükhasan
Enqerê -Ankara
Haymana
Balcıhisar
Burumsuz
Bostanyüklü
Cihanşah
Dikkulak
Hacımusa
Inler
Kerpiç
Kırpolu
Sazbağları
Sebilibağlar
Sindiran
Tepeköy
Yenice
Yenicik
Yurtbeyli
Bala
Aşağıhacıbekir
Aşağıören
Aydogan
Bektaşlı
Büyükbıyık
Büyükcamili
Çiğdemli
Derekışla
Eğribasan
Erginköy
Kesikköprü
Küçükbıyık
Küçükcamili
Tatarhöyük
Tepeköy
Sugüzel
Yukarıhacıbekir
Kırşehir
Çiçekdağı
Çiçekdağı(Çiçek)
Acıköy(Sorik)
Alahacıli(Galikan)
Bahçepınar(Torin)
Baraklı
Çanakpınar(Ramiko)
Dohankaş(Kungus)
Konurkale(Konir)
Mahmutlu(Qişle)
Pohrek(Gedar)
Şahinoğlu
Yalnızağaç(Zekera)
Boztepe
Çamalak
Çevirme
Çiğdeli
Çimenli
Harmanaltı(Sayiplı)
Hüseyinli
Kulhüyük
Öksüzkale(Haladin)
Üçkuyu
Uzunpınar
Akçakent
Avanoğlu
Navend
Gollu
Körpınar(Kaniya kurik)
Seyrekköy(Hurmik)
Taburoğlu
Taşınburnu (Mala bene)
Yeşiloba (Guri)
Kaman
Ağapınar
Çadırlıhacıbayram
Çadırlıkörmehmet
Hirfanlar
KekilliAli
MollaOsmanlar
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Postby YFred » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:16 am

Tim Drayton wrote:I have found the following list of Kurdish villages in the Central Anatolian region of Turkey, bang in the middle of the country and well outside GR's map of Kurdistan. They number around 300 and are home to nearly one million people. Kurdish speakers have lived in these villages for centuries interspersed among villages whose inhabitans speak other languages and thus forming part of the delicate ethnic mosaic that constitutes Anatolia.

I suggest that somebody like Piratis selects one of these at random, goes there and explains to the local people that he, as a know-it-all foreigner who thinks he knows better than the people who live there what their hopes and aspirations should be, wants them to fight for an independent Kurdistan (even though this entity defies description in geographic terms) to which, following some glorious victory, they will be forced to move as refugees. He might find that these people actually have quite different ideas.

http://www.bydigi.net/cografya/5751-ic- ... yleri.html

Qonyê-Konya
Cihanbeyli
Beşkardeş
Beyliova
Bulduk(Gunde Bulduq)
Çimen
Çölköy
Damlakuyu
Beşkavak(Büyük)
Beşkavak(Küçük)
Gölyazı(Xalikan)
Günyüzü(Cudkan)
Kandil
Kelhasan
Kırıkışla(Molıka)
Kutukkuşağı(Kutiga)
Kuşca(Hacilaro)
Sağlık
Yapalı(Qemera)
Yeniceoba(İncove)
Zaferiye(Kayışoğlu)
Kulu
Acıkuyu(Birtalik)
Altılar
Arsinci(Germik)
Beşkardeş(Torına)
Burnagil
Bozan
Celep
Çöpler(Copli)
Dipdede
Gökler
Hisar
Karacadağ(Xalikan)
Karacadere
Kirkpınar
Şerefli
Yazıcıçayır(Mehina)
Yeşilyurt(Celikan)
Tavşançalı(Omaro)
Zincirlikuyu(Gordoğlu)
Sarayönü
Boyalı
Kadıoğlu
Sarıkaya
Yunak
Beşışıklı
Çayırbaşı
Hatırlı(Gunde xofe)
Hacıfakılı(Kamaran)
Hacıomeroğlu(Hacımaran)
Imamoğlu(Bodan)
Karayayla
Kurtuşağı(Kurdan)
Koçyazı(Civikan)
Meselij
Odabaşı(Halisinan)
Ortakışla
Özyayla
Saray(Golan ga)
Sinanlı
Sülüklü(Galikan)
Çeltik
Kaşören(Rengan)
Adakasim(Sorikan)
Büyükhasan
Isakuşağı(Sagan)
Küçükhasan
Enqerê -Ankara
Haymana
Balcıhisar
Burumsuz
Bostanyüklü
Cihanşah
Dikkulak
Hacımusa
Inler
Kerpiç
Kırpolu
Sazbağları
Sebilibağlar
Sindiran
Tepeköy
Yenice
Yenicik
Yurtbeyli
Bala
Aşağıhacıbekir
Aşağıören
Aydogan
Bektaşlı
Büyükbıyık
Büyükcamili
Çiğdemli
Derekışla
Eğribasan
Erginköy
Kesikköprü
Küçükbıyık
Küçükcamili
Tatarhöyük
Tepeköy
Sugüzel
Yukarıhacıbekir
Kırşehir
Çiçekdağı
Çiçekdağı(Çiçek)
Acıköy(Sorik)
Alahacıli(Galikan)
Bahçepınar(Torin)
Baraklı
Çanakpınar(Ramiko)
Dohankaş(Kungus)
Konurkale(Konir)
Mahmutlu(Qişle)
Pohrek(Gedar)
Şahinoğlu
Yalnızağaç(Zekera)
Boztepe
Çamalak
Çevirme
Çiğdeli
Çimenli
Harmanaltı(Sayiplı)
Hüseyinli
Kulhüyük
Öksüzkale(Haladin)
Üçkuyu
Uzunpınar
Akçakent
Avanoğlu
Navend
Gollu
Körpınar(Kaniya kurik)
Seyrekköy(Hurmik)
Taburoğlu
Taşınburnu (Mala bene)
Yeşiloba (Guri)
Kaman
Ağapınar
Çadırlıhacıbayram
Çadırlıkörmehmet
Hirfanlar
KekilliAli
MollaOsmanlar

Who knows, they may do us all a favour!!!
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:31 am

YFred wrote:Tim its very simple. Turkey has to allow all the Kurds to vote to see what their wish is. The rest can be negotiated, with good will on both sides. Plenty of example where its worked. Unfortunately there more example where its not worked. Very thorny issue.


I agree. The thorny issue is deciding who gets to vote. Some know-it-all outsiders have the idea that there is a kind of apartheid system in Turkey in which the Kurds constitute a discrete and excluded entity. This is not the case at all. The major fault line in Turkish society is religious rather than ethno-linguistic anyway. Sunni Muslim Kurds fit in wherever they go in Turkey, and when they migrate to the urban areas of the west the processes of assimilation and intermarriage see to it that the grandchildren of Kurdish migrants become fully integrated into local mainstream Turkish society. I once came into very close contact with three generations of a family that migrated to Gebze from a Kurdish-speaking part of eastern Turkey, and I have no compunctions at all about making this statement. It is clear to me that these members of the third generation who, in strictly genetic terms were 100% Kurdish, but have grown up speaking only Turkish in an urban environment have very different aspirations to the current inhabitants of the villages from which their grandparents migrated. I have also, by the way, visited the region of Turkey from which their grandparents came, so again I have no compunctions about making this statement based on personal experience. Do these people who in all probability define themselves as being Turks and not Kurds get a vote or not? Do people with one Kurdish and one non-Kurdish parent get a vote or not? Do non-Kurdish people living in areas with a Kurdish majority get a vote or not? The situation on the ground is very complicated and only outsiders who imagine that there is an apartheid-like situation in Turkey can imagine that it is not.

Moreover, there must be at least thirty ethnic and/or linguistic minority groups in Turkey, so why do the rights of the Kurds take priority over any of those of any other of these groups? In my opinion, the time has come to debate the status of all such groups within the Republic of Turkey and to determine the degree of cultural and/or political autonomy that minority groups in general should enjoy. In the current political climate in Turkey I do not expect to see this kind of debate soon, unfortunately.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:47 am

I would suggest that the above map (source: globalsecurity.org) is more accurate and realistic than the one posted by GR, and you will note that it represents the situation in terms of percentages rather than in absolute terms.


And your own map proves even better what I said from the beginning. That the majority of the population in south east Turkey are Kurds.

There are no official figures in Turkey concerning native languages. Kurds probably make up little more than half of the population of Mardin province, which is bang in the middle of the area claimed for Kurdistan in GR's map, and is a very ethnically diverse place and home to large numbers of Arabic speakers, and also Assyrian and Turkish speakers. To dictate that all of these people belong to some kind of notional Kurdistan is a form of proto Kurdish imperialism. Even more significantly, the Christian Assyrian minority living in this province has suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing. Had this not been so, Kurds would certainly not constitute even a slim majority in this province. Thus, including Mardin province in some notional Kurdistan is tantamount to condoning and accepting the ethnic cleansing of the Christian minority in this area.


Firstly, the Turks are the ones who committed the genocides against non-Muslims, not the Kurds. So you can not hold the Kurds responsible for that.

Secondly, in that territory the Kurds are the majority. The Turks and every other minority can continue to live there as they have always done. So about what ethnic cleansing are you talking about? Why is it ethnic cleansing if those people live in a country called Turkey instead of a country called Kurdistan.

Turkey is a nationalist creation of the Turks. So why is having a Turkey in Asia Minor fine, while having a Kurdistan is not?

If anything the Kurds have more rights to have their own independent nation in Asia Minor than the Turks do, not less.

The following open letter, signed by many respected members of this community, might make a good starting point.


As I said it is up to the Kurds to decide what they want for their own territory. What I know for sure is that they don't want to be called "Mountain Turks" and have their language banned.

What I note is how minimalist those people are with their demands. There is a region in Turkey were they are the 60-100% majority, and they have been so for 1000s of years, and still all those people are asking are for their basic human rights. The Kurds would have every right to demand an independent Kurdistan if they wanted to, and still many of them are willing to accept to be equal Turkish citizens if Turkey shows some respect to their language and customs.

Compare that with the demands of the TC minority in Cyprus. They want to have a separate state on land which belongs to us by 80% and where the vast majority of the population has been Greek for 1000s of years!! That would be equivalent of the Kurds demanding that Ankara should be part of Kurdistan! And they also demand 50% of power! The Kurds wouldn't demand such thing from Turkey even as a joke!

Kurdish speakers have lived in these villages for centuries interspersed among villages whose inhabitans speak other languages and thus forming part of the delicate ethnic mosaic that constitutes Anatolia.


Tim, nobody said that every Kurdish village should be part of Kurdistan. What I am talking about is the areas which are shown as deep green in your map (60-100% Kurds) plus the areas of the lighter Green where the Kurds are over 50%.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:02 pm

Piratis,
I can agree 100% with you when you said:

"Those people are the majority in their territory for 1000s of years, so why not to have their independent nation on their own territory if this is what they want?"

Let's leave it at that.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:16 pm

Piratis has made it abundantly clear that he couldn't care less what Kurdish-speakers in Turkey actually think or want, but for others who are a little more open minded the following New York Times article on the huge gulf that divides the aspirations of Kurdish peasants in the east and Kurdish professionals in the west is informative, and supports the arguments I have tried to make above.

http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/kinzers.html

In this article, a Kurdish-speaking jeweller in Istanbul is reported as saying:

"I am a Kurd, but what difference does that make?" asked Cemal as he sat behind a glass case full of gold bracelets and earrings. "I'm Turkish. I love Turkey. Never once have I had a problem because I happen to have Kurdish blood. Everyone is equal in this country."
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Postby Piratis » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:36 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:Piratis has made it abundantly clear that he couldn't care less what Kurdish-speakers in Turkey actually think or want, but for others who are a little more open minded the following New York Times article on the huge gulf that divides the aspirations of Kurdish peasants in the east and Kurdish professionals in the west is informative, and supports the arguments I have tried to make above.

http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/kinzers.html

In this article, a Kurdish-speaking jeweller in Istanbul is reported as saying:

"I am a Kurd, but what difference does that make?" asked Cemal as he sat behind a glass case full of gold bracelets and earrings. "I'm Turkish. I love Turkey. Never once have I had a problem because I happen to have Kurdish blood. Everyone is equal in this country."


Tim, obviously not all Kurds share the opinion of this jeweller, otherwise there wouldn't be any PKK. Also note the consequences that the Kurds who live in Turkey can face if they support an independent Kurdistan. So I don't think Kurds are free to express their opinion on the matter.

My opinion is that the majority of Kurds want an independent Kurdistan. This is why Turkey would not allow Kurds to freely and democratically decide the destiny of Kurdistan, because the Turks know that the result would not be the one they want.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:52 pm

Piratis wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Piratis has made it abundantly clear that he couldn't care less what Kurdish-speakers in Turkey actually think or want, but for others who are a little more open minded the following New York Times article on the huge gulf that divides the aspirations of Kurdish peasants in the east and Kurdish professionals in the west is informative, and supports the arguments I have tried to make above.

http://www.kurdistan.org/Washington/kinzers.html

In this article, a Kurdish-speaking jeweller in Istanbul is reported as saying:

"I am a Kurd, but what difference does that make?" asked Cemal as he sat behind a glass case full of gold bracelets and earrings. "I'm Turkish. I love Turkey. Never once have I had a problem because I happen to have Kurdish blood. Everyone is equal in this country."


Tim, obviously not all Kurds share the opinion of this jeweller, otherwise there wouldn't be any PKK. Also note the consequences that the Kurds who live in Turkey can face if they support an independent Kurdistan. So I don't think Kurds are free to express their opinion on the matter.

My opinion is that the majority of Kurds want an independent Kurdistan. This is why Turkey would not allow Kurds to freely and democratically decide the destiny of Kurdistan, because the Turks know that the result would not be the one they want.


I lived in Turkey for a long time. I have come into contact with many Kurdish people there. I have at times worked in close cooperation with Kurdish colleagues. I lived in a largely Kurdish neighbourhood for about three years in an apartment block in which all the other flats were occupied by members of a Kurdish extended family. I had a lot of social contact with these people. I can speak some vary basic Kurdish. Based on all of this, my opinion is that the majority of Kurds DO NOT want an independent Kurdistan. I have even backed up this belief with an open letter signed by many prominent and respected members of the Kurdish community in which they articulate their aspirations and no mention is made of an independent Kurdistan. In all the time that I lived in Turkey and with all my contacts with Kurdish speakers there, I have never even heard anybody make reference to the concept of 'Kurdistan'. This is because anybody who understands the ethnic and geographical make up of Turkey knows that such a thing does not exist on the ground.

If it makes you happy to believe otherwise, then be happy.
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