Cyprus-Forum.com

[74LB]

Your link above shows that you don't have "thousands of villages" to worry about. Thank you.

Thousands of DEAD you nincompoop! The details of the first 800 are there, but the rest of the spreadsheet’s pages got trashed.

Why start name calling ? I understood that you referred to villages rather than individuals, and anyone reading the exchanges would think the same.
If you wish to twist it to suit your need, then so be it.

The bloody details in that spreadsheet are those of people such as name, age, etc, so what on earth are you on about?

This......

Why would I need to go visit your mother’s village when I’ve got thousands of my own to worry about?

[Piratis]

Piratis, your response is still sad, but expected. You are almost justifying the wiping out of 3 villages, one of which was my mothers.

Quit exaggerating… a total of 65 dead is NOT a “wiping out of 3 villages”!

I think it is more like a couple of 100 (in total), not 65.

What 74LB forgets is that this crime was committed by some EOKA-B thugs. Those people, along with the coupists, where the people we were fighting against between 15th of july and 20th of July.

We never supported the actions of EOKA-B, only a tiny minority did so.
On the other hand, the vast majority of TCs fully support the criminal Turkish invasion which was the cause of so many deaths, atrocities and suffering.

What 74LB forgets is that this crime was committed by some EOKA-B thugs. Those people, along with the coupists, where the people we were fighting against between 15th of july and 20th of July.

And after this date you decided to join them ?
Wonderful.

After this date we had a much worst kind of criminals to deal with. I guess it would suit you very nicely if we continued fighting among ourselves, making it even easier for you to ethnically cleanse us and take our lands, right?

Not really, I wouldn't wish how it ended up on anyone.

So why are we arguing then? I also wouldn't wish how it ended up on anyone.

The only way we would have avoided the casualties of the war is if Turkey had not invaded and the war didn't happen. From the moment that Turkey decided to invade and start a war, the casualties were inevitable. There is no war without casualties, especially one that the target are civilians and the aim is ethnic cleaning.

[Get Real!]

http://www.hellas.org/cyprus/timeline.htm

Go there and read minute my minute.

And what exactly would I be looking for there?

How in the begining of the combat Hellenic forces were sure abt they would have won the combat. But u can get some other interpretations as well, if u wish. Don't feel the need to ask me.

Oh Insan... you're making a complete fool of yourself again!

I thought you were trying to prove that I was wrong about the numbers... besides you made ANOTHER SWEEPING STATEMENT did you not?

How much punishment can your feeble mind take in one night? Think of the children!

[74LB]

Piratis, your response is still sad, but expected. You are almost justifying the wiping out of 3 villages, one of which was my mothers.

Quit exaggerating… a total of 65 dead is NOT a “wiping out of 3 villages”!

I think it is more like a couple of 100 (in total), not 65.

What 74LB forgets is that this crime was committed by some EOKA-B thugs. Those people, along with the coupists, where the people we were fighting against between 15th of july and 20th of July.

We never supported the actions of EOKA-B, only a tiny minority did so.
On the other hand, the vast majority of TCs fully support the criminal Turkish invasion which was the cause of so many deaths, atrocities and suffering.

What 74LB forgets is that this crime was committed by some EOKA-B thugs. Those people, along with the coupists, where the people we were fighting against between 15th of july and 20th of July.

And after this date you decided to join them ?
Wonderful.

After this date we had a much worst kind of criminals to deal with. I guess it would suit you very nicely if we continued fighting among ourselves, making it even easier for you to ethnically cleanse us and take our lands, right?

Not really, I wouldn't wish how it ended up on anyone.

So why are we arguing then? I also wouldn't wish how it ended up on anyone.

The only way we would have avoided the casualties of the war is if Turkey had not invaded and the war didn't happen. From the moment that Turkey decided to invade and start a war, the casualties were inevitable. There is no war without casualties, especially one that the target are civilians and the aim is ethnic cleaning.

Our disagreement is because of the way you dismiss a statement like :

In August 1974, three entire villages of Turkish Cypriots were annihilated by EOKA B.

with your interpretation that goes something like 'you started it so what do you expect ?

[Piratis]

with your interpretation that goes something like 'you started it so what do you expect ?

And I stand by what I said. This doesn't mean I am not sorry about the 200 or so innocent people from your side that died.

All I am saying is that when there is a war there are are casualties. You can't start a war and expect that only your opponent will have casualties from it.

So I find it highly hypocritical when those TCs who support the invasion and the war at the same time blame GCs because they had casualties from that war.

[YFred]

with your interpretation that goes something like 'you started it so what do you expect ?

And I stand by what I said. This doesn't mean I am not sorry about the 200 or so innocent people from your side that died.

All I am saying is that when there is a war there are are casualties. You can't start a war and expect that only your opponent will have casualties from it.

So I find it highly hypocritical when those TCs who support the invasion and the war at the same time blame GCs because they had casualties from that war.

Fine sentiments coming from the biggest hypocrite of them all. You are the Cyprus problem. Killing innocent people is a war crime. No exceptions.

[YFred]

with your interpretation that goes something like 'you started it so what do you expect ?

And I stand by what I said. This doesn't mean I am not sorry about the 200 or so innocent people from your side that died.

All I am saying is that when there is a war there are are casualties. You can't start a war and expect that only your opponent will have casualties from it.

So I find it highly hypocritical when those TCs who support the invasion and the war at the same time blame GCs because they had casualties from that war.

ohps

[Piratis]

with your interpretation that goes something like 'you started it so what do you expect ?

And I stand by what I said. This doesn't mean I am not sorry about the 200 or so innocent people from your side that died.

All I am saying is that when there is a war there are are casualties. You can't start a war and expect that only your opponent will have casualties from it.

So I find it highly hypocritical when those TCs who support the invasion and the war at the same time blame GCs because they had casualties from that war.

Fine sentiments coming from the biggest hypocrite of them all. You are the Cyprus problem. Killing innocent people is a war crime. No exceptions.

No mate, you are the Cyprus problem. No invading Turks = No wars = No casualties for anybody.

You invade us and start a war against us, kill 1000s of innocent people, ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands, and then you come here to tell me that we are the Cyprus Problem because in the war you started against us you also had 200 or so casualties?

And the most hypocritical thing is that criminals like you were the ones who fully supported the invasion and the war and who still celebrate it.

You celebrate the murder of 1000s of innocent Greek Cypriots, the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands, the theft of our lands and the creation on our land of some Turkish pseudo state. And at the same time you celebrate such atrocities against us, you come here and expect apologies from us because in the war you started you also had a few casualties?

I never supported the killing of any innocent people- like you do, neither do we ever celebrate any crime - like you do. I only stated the fact that in wars bad things such as this happen and there are always innocent casualties from both sides, and the responsible ones are the ones who started the war by invading and occupying a sovereign country.

[Tim Drayton]

There is no distinct Kurdish region of Turkey. Kurdish villages are concentrated in the south east, but can be found as far west as Ankara province. Kurdish villages are interspersed with villages of other ethnic origin. Anway, the majority of Kurds now live in the large cities of western Turkey to which they have migrated. It is imposible to identify a particular region of the Republic of Turkey as being 'Kurdistan'.

I don't agree with you Tim. The Kurds are the majority in south eastern Turkey and they have been so for 1000s of years. They are very similar to the Scots. You can't say that there is no Scotland because many Scots now live in London or other cities in the UK or because some no-Scottish people now live in Scotland.

Here is a map of ethnic groups from 1923
http://www.anesi.com/rmap2.jpg

The TCs on the other hand are an ethnic minority which was the result of a comparatively recent colonization. They do not have their own separate territory. They are like the Turks of Bulgaria or the Whites of South Africa, or even the Greeks of Egypt.

Nobody forced any Turks to come to Cyprus, they became a minority on our island with their own free will, and now just like the Turks of Bulgaria, or the Whites of South Africa, or the Greeks of Egypt, these minorities should accept that they do not have any right to impose their rule anymore, and they should accept to be equal citizens along with everybody else.

The comparison with Scotland is totally specious. Scotland was a state with clearly defined boundaries, and all those living within its borders were its citizens. It became incorprated into the United Kingdom as result of the union of the crowns, and later the union of the parliaments. If you study the history of the Scottish state, you will see that it grew over time as it incorporated a number of formerly different kingdoms, initially as the the first people to call themselves 'Scots', Gaelic-speaking migrants from Island, conquered the Picts, and then the Britons of the kingdom of Strathclyde and the Angles of the Lothians. Scotland was a bilingual country right up until the union, with Gealic spoken in the highlands and Scots/Lallans in the lowlands. In short, being 'Scottish' simply meant being an inhabitant of the territory of that state, it was not an ethinic concept.

Conversely, the concept of 'Kurdistan' is a romantic notion dreamed up by certain Kurdish nationalists but which has never existed in any territorial sense. Kurdish anyway is divided into two dialects, Sorani and Kurmanji, which are not really mutually comprehensible and some linguists argue that they are two separate languages. Another interesting theory I once heard from a Kurdish-speaking doctor is that Kurdish is really a dialect of Farsi, and the very term 'Kurdish' was invented to denigrate Faris-speakers living in the region. The situation on the ground is a great deal more complicated than you give credit for.

Turkey was created very recently in 1923 out of territories with people of different languages and religions. An independent Kurdistan in south east Turkey would be way more homogeneous than Turkey.

So why should an independent Kurdistan be a "romantic notion dreamed up by certain nationalists", while the creation of Turkey was not?

Those people are the majority in their territory for 1000s of years, so why not to have their independent nation on their own territory if this is what they want?

If this is what they want. Precisely.

[Tim Drayton]

I would suggest that the above map (source: globalsecurity.org) is more accurate and realistic than the one posted by GR, and you will note that it represents the situation in terms of percentages rather than in absolute terms.

Even so, I would suggest that reliable data is very hard to come by. There are no official figures in Turkey concerning native languages. Kurds probably make up little more than half of the population of Mardin province, which is bang in the middle of the area claimed for Kurdistan in GR's map, and is a very ethnically diverse place and home to large numbers of Arabic speakers, and also Assyrian and Turkish speakers. To dictate that all of these people belong to some kind of notional Kurdistan is a form of proto Kurdish imperialism. Even more significantly, the Christian Assyrian minority living in this province has suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing. Had this not been so, Kurds would certainly not constitute even a slim majority in this province. Thus, including Mardin province in some notional Kurdistan is tantamount to condoning and accepting the ethnic cleansing of the Christian minority in this area.