Cyprus-Forum.com

[detailer]

Erolz,
Sure maybe GCs have more fault in that decade, but thats about it. What about the centuries that you didn't even bother to make an agreement with us because you used us as slaves, and the decades that you performed ethnic cleansing against us???

You are trying to show that GCs have more fault and have to be punished, however the TCs have 100 times more fault, and yet you expect to be rewarded on our expense!

Anyways, lets assume that what you did to us from 74 until today can be excused by what we did to you in 63-74. Using the same logic what we did to you in 63-74 can be excused by what you did to us in the centuries that you were oppressing us. Also what you do to us now, can excuse what we will do to you in the future. Is this ok with you?

There are two ways:
1) let the past behind and start fresh on universally accepted principles like democracy and human rights based on what we have already agreed in 1960.

2) Continue the circle of blood.

Which one is going to be?

If you expect from us to accept and legalize anything from the illegal situation you created (partition, settlers etc) you can forget about it. We will not declare defeat if thats what you expected.

First of all,

If ottomans were that evil, greeks wouldnt be in these places where they are living nowadays.

You should understand something clearly my friend. Noone is paying any price because of what they did before the 20th century. If that was the case, all the europeans should start paying compensation to each other because of their feodal and barbaric kingdoms before renasainca.

Turkcyp today wrote a very nice post. We can solve our conflict taking 1960 as a reference since that's our first attempt to live together. That's the first agreement.

To some extent, I sincerely understand you but no TC would want to pay the price of an empire which was here 150 years ago. Also, they were under that suppression too with slightly better conditions.

[tcklim]

geezuz this thread has jumped 6 pages already???? Ok replying a little late to some of the nerves I touched with my last post....

-----
"Never the less! Can you possibly tell us how many people you know that were beaten up or for having their cars stolen, just because they had a “NAI” sticker on their car?
------

My comments in this regard may have been a bit generalized and for that I apologize. I made them judging from the facts on the ground in reality, and not from newspaper reports in the Greek media (i can't read Greek) ... It was not the general population running around in OXI gangs, but YES IT WAS large gangs from the school. My brother is still in school and he knows at least 5 people that had to run from a group threatening to decapitate them because they expressed possible support for the vote (these people are in the 17 - 20 range) and know at least 4 others who were secretly in favour but just shutup because of fear. Now granted, 9 people does not the general cyprus population make, but it does paint a picture of the scenario in these schools at the time....

Several incidents of cars brandishing NAI stickets being vandalized (not stolen, my bad) were reported... I'm not about to call the newspapers and order old clippings to show you, but I know of these incidents as I was there....



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By the way, do you know how many kids beat each other, end up hospitalised and how many cars get destroyed across Cyprus every weekend, before, during and after the end of football matches? Yet, football stadiums are always filled up with spectators accompanied even by women and Children.
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Sorry, I fail to see the logic of this statement..... is this errrr, civilized to you? Piratis what you think?



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with the loading of a single posting full of ranting. You labelled your self, right from start, to be a non-objective and a profoundly opinionated interlocutor.
--------------

I beg to differ. I believe my ranting in that post balanced out the ranting of all the previous ones against the TC. Just trying to provide some balance. I am neutral, I am not against either side, but I do believe that the GCs should become much more open-minded than they are today.... when I first moved to Cyprus, Greeks were so kind and welcoming to foreigners, there was a lot of immigration going on there.... now all I see is ultra-nationalist talk and "My god we're EU now, we're CIVILIZED, all you others f**k off now will ya?" ... Cypriot hospitality has gone out the window. I remember arriving at the airport and because I tend to be mistaken for a GC, the airport guy was friendly and began speaking to me in Greek.... when I showed him my passport, his face rotated 180 and he couldn't have been more of a bastard im sorry to say.


----------------
They are trying to reach out for the GCs? Are you serious? What they want is to legalize their illegalities. It is like if a rapist comes and fucks your sister every day and then he comes and wants to be your friend, but without stopping to rape your sister, only to rape her less!!
-----------------

My friend, this is another failure of your to accept that Turkish Cypriots are Cypriots. I in no way condone genocide or forcibly removing people from their homes. I in no way condone invasion and the involuntary partition of the island. However, it HAS to be ACCEPTED the GCs that violence was not one-sided! The TC's were an oppressed minority in Cyprus (put that Greek school textbook away and pick up some real history books please). They were never accepted as Cypriots, and were regular recipients of violent acts. Why can you not accept this? Here... I found this link in under 5 mins

http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/13.htm



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What hypocrites!! The ones that performed the Armenian genocide, ethnically cleansed 1/3rd of Cyprus from the people that lived there for 3500 years and who actually choose to remain neutral in the war against Hitler come here to accuse me that I sound like Hitler.
----------------------

You do sound like Hitler and to be a hypocrite you must accuse me of accusing you of something that I also allegedly have done. I am not Turkish, or Turkish Cypriot, or Greek Cypriot for that matter... and even if I was, I did not commit genocide against anyone..... my greatest murder was that of the fly that was pissing me off 5 mins ago, and who I sent into the next life by way of a crushing T-shirt wallop.


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Piratis:
My approach is that that we should apply what is legal, and create something based on democracy and human rights.
-----------------------

Oh shutup.... the last person who is qualified to talk about human rights is you.



Now that I look back I can see that I have indeed been arguing only in favour of the TCs, even though I live in the GC areas.... and the reason I do this is because I see so many unfair and misguided comments directed at them here. I do not mean to rant, but aren't all of you doing just the same? No-one here seems to look at both sides, just trying to paint themselves as innocent and defend their opinions. Negotiations do not work like that.

What we need is more people that are even-minded, open...... a very good friend of mine (like a father) who has known me since I was 3 years old up until my present 21, IS A REFUGEE FROM FAMAGUSTA. He crossed the line as soon as it was open to go find his house, which was occupied by Turks... and he recounted to me how he cried when they invited him in.... it was His House! However, I have NEVER heard this man say a single negative thing about Turkish-Cypriots, he WANTS to reconcile and he voted NAI. Many of his friends considered him a "traitor" (for wanting to reunite his homeland and go back to Famagusta) and to this day he visibly gets really pissed off at anyone bitching about Turkish-Cypriots and wishing them the worst ..... he is Greek Cypriot by the way. And I wish all Greek Cypriots were as open-minded and as peaceful as he is.


Btw Brother, I'll be in Cyprus in 2 weeks..... c ya there!

I'll end this rather long entry posted whilst bored outta my brains at work with an uplifting tale of racism defeated and the attitudes I wish Cyprus had (that of the airline waitress), read on:

>>The following scene took place on a BA flight between Johannesburg
>> > and London.
>> >
>> >
>> > A white woman, about 50 years old, was seated next to a
>> > black man. Obviously disturbed by this, she called the air
>>Hostess.
>> > "Madam, what is the matter," the hostess asked. "You obviously
>>do
>> > not see it then?" she responded. "You placed me next to a
>>black man.
>> > I do not agree to sit next to someone from such a repugnant
>>group.
>> > Give me an alternative seat." "Be calm please," the hostess
>>replied.
>> > "Almost all the places on this flight are taken. I will go to
>>see if
>> > another place is available." The Hostess went away and then
>>came
>> > back a few minutes later. "Madam, just as I thought, there are
>>no
>> > other available seats in the economy class. I spoke to the
>>captain
>> > and he informed me that there is also no seat in the business
>>class.
>> > All the same, we still have one place in the first class."
>>Before
>> > the woman could say anything, the hostess continued: "It is
>>not
>> > usual for our company to permit someone from the economy class
>>to
>> > sit in the first class. However, given the circumstances, the
>> > captain feels that it would be scandalous to make someone sit
>>next
>> > to someone so disgusting."She turned to the black guy, and
>>said,
>> > "Therefore, Sir, if you would like to, please collect your
>>hand
>> > luggage, a seat awaits you in first class." At that moment,
>>the
>> > other passengers who were shocked by what they had just
>>witnessed
>> > stood up and applauded.


I applaud anyone who stands up to racism and who opens their mind.

Peace

[Piratis]

Turkcyp today wrote a very nice post. We can solve our conflict taking 1960 as a reference since that's our first attempt to live together. That's the first agreement.

Sure, lets start from the point that suits you right? And then end history in another point that suits you. Everything that matters is that decade, nothing else.
Before 1960 we were not living together? In the centuries that the Ottomans kept us as slaves I assume you have no complains, right?

Sorry, I fail to see the logic of this statement..... is this errrr, civilized to you? Piratis what you think?

Since you ask about it, I think you are a fucking idiot.

My friend, this is another failure of your to accept that Turkish Cypriots are Cypriots. I in no way condone genocide or forcibly removing people from their homes. I in no way condone invasion and the involuntary partition of the island. However, it HAS to be ACCEPTED the GCs that violence was not one-sided! The TC's were an oppressed minority in Cyprus (put that Greek school textbook away and pick up some real history books please). They were never accepted as Cypriots, and were regular recipients of violent acts. Why can you not accept this? Here... I found this link in under 5 mins

They were an oppressed minority for 10 years, and the oppressing minority for 4 centuries. Which one is worst? Why they should be rewarded now????

You do sound like Hitler and to be a hypocrite you must accuse me of accusing you of something that I also allegedly have done. I am not Turkish, or Turkish Cypriot, or Greek Cypriot for that matter... and even if I was, I did not commit genocide against anyone..... my greatest murder was that of the fly that was pissing me off 5 mins ago, and who I sent into the next life by way of a crushing T-shirt wallop.

I didn't commit any kind of crime either. I was born in 77. So why should I be punished and be given 1/4th of the voting rights from some other "super citizens"?

Oh shutup.... the last person who is qualified to talk about human rights is you.

Yes, I see you have no arguments, just hate for GCs that want their human rights.

I do not accept to have 1/4th of voting rights of others Cypriots. Anything wrong with that?

I do not accept to have any limits in my our country based on my race. Any problem with that?

I want my country to be independent without foreign armies to control it.

I am not going to surrender my rights and accept any kind of "Annan plans" any problem with that?

[tcklim]

Just some questions in response.... you go on about the Ottoman empire oppressing you for 4 centuries, and you seem to demonise them all so

Question 1:
Just curious but do you now consider any child born to a Turkish parent to be instantly branded a lower-level human being, or demonized? No matter how innocent that person is? You're instantly making judgement on millions of people there.... is that fair?

Question 2:
Using your logic you should also hate Germans, jews, Italians, the British, the Japanese ..... are they all instant devils too?


Responding to some other stuff .... I don't know which version of the Annan plan you're looking at, but nowhere in the version I've perused do GC's receive 1/4 of the voting rights and nowhere are TCs "super citizens".... how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Why do you accuse me of having hatred for GCs? I have absolutely no hatred for GCs and many of my best friends are GCs. I grew up there for 18 years, it is my home and will forever be my home..... nothing beats it! I'm just trying to balance out the arguments..... I fully support the right of return for refugees. But hating the other side and making hurtful comments will not help you reach this goal... it will only worsen the situation to the extent that it will become irreversible...

Look at the International Community today. They have completely changed their attitudes towards Cyprus as well based upon the way the GC community is acting. That is solid fact. The way to turn this around is to embrace the Turkish Cypriots as Cypriots, not insisting they all get the hell out..... it just won't happen. If you want a solution, the attitudes have to change.

No offence to you Piratis, but it is not I who is the "fucking idiot" ... as you so eloquently put it....

Peace, yet again....

[Piratis]

Question 1:
Just curious but do you now consider any child born to a Turkish parent to be instantly branded a lower-level human being, or demonized? No matter how innocent that person is? You're instantly making judgement on millions of people there.... is that fair?

How did you come to that conclusion. What I say is clear my friend: The TCs can not ask from us to compromise our human and democratic rights because of past events because in the past they have been much worst than us. Therefore why should the GCs be punished and the TCs rewarded?
Is it clear now? For me there are no lower and higher level human beings. I believe that all citizens of a country should be equal. However this is not what TCs want. They want a racist separation of people, so you should ask them the questions you are asking me.

Using your logic you should also hate Germans, jews, Italians, the British, the Japanese ..... are they all instant devils too?

I don't hate anybody. I simply state the fact that Turks violate my human and democratic rights in my country and I have the right to fight against them to gain back my rights. Whats wrong with this?

Responding to some other stuff .... I don't know which version of the Annan plan you're looking at, but nowhere in the version I've perused do GC's receive 1/4 of the voting rights and nowhere are TCs "super citizens".... how did you arrive at this conclusion?

TCs are the 18% and they will get an effective 50% power (this is the political equality of communities they want). Do the maths, if you are not very good at it I will help you. In effect if one community made by the 82% has the same power as the community of 18%, this means that 1 TC vote = about 4.5 GC votes. This means that 100.000 TCs can block a decision, but 200.000 GCs can not.
1 person is not equal to 1 person in this case.

The way to turn this around is to embrace the Turkish Cypriots as Cypriots, not insisting they all get the hell out..... it just won't happen. If you want a solution, the attitudes have to change.

TCs do not want to be seen as just Cypriots. They want to be separate they consider themselves different nation, and they want partition, or a disguised partition like the Annan plan.
We would be more than glad if we could all be equal Cypriots without any kind of discrimination. But they don't want that. They want racist discriminations.
I do not want them to get the hell out. However they consider as acceptable a solution based on ethnic cleansing against us. Therefore I simply tell them that if for them ethnic cleansing against us is ok, then so it will be ethnic cleansing against them in the future. Or maybe you think we should always be the victims?

Look at the International Community today.

I look, so? Do you want to count people to see their position? Start with the most populous countries, China and India. Or maybe the "international community" for you are those that control the biggest media networks and they are very loud in order to promote their own interests?

[tcklim]

How did you come to that conclusion. What I say is clear my friend: The TCs can not ask from us to compromise our human and democratic rights because of past events because in the past they have been much worst than us. Therefore why should the GCs be punished and the TCs rewarded?

Maybe we shouldn't look at this in terms of punishments and rewards, because that's not what reconciliation is all about. Both sides have at some point or another harmed each other, but the original treaty that formed the Republic of Cyprus was at its root broken by intercommunal violence in the end. In case of any solution, there should be protection against this. In order for a mutual agreement, both sides have to make concessions.

The problem is both sides are painting themselves as victims, and as such, blaming the other, and these attitudes are not conducive to restoring peace. How can you expect to open dialogue and construct a settlement whilst hurling abuse at the other side? Arguments can never be resolved like this, not in the school playground or in the much more complicated situation that is the Cyprus problem.

Is it clear now? For me there are no lower and higher level human beings. I believe that all citizens of a country should be equal. However this is not what TCs want. They want a racist separation of people, so you should ask them the questions you are asking me.

TCs do not want to be seen as just Cypriots. They want to be separate they consider themselves different nation, and they want partition, or a disguised partition like the Annan plan.
We would be more than glad if we could all be equal Cypriots without any kind of discrimination. But they don't want that. They want racist discriminations.

The annan model is planned around the Swiss model. At no point to the separate cantons consider themselves racistly separating the people, be it from the German, French or Italian sides. They are all SWISS, irrespective of the Canton, but they have different ethnic heritage.

At some point, given the attitudes of resentment expressed at TC's, a loose canton-based solution will provide security to both communities. Your idea of having both communities intertwined everywhere did not work the last time and it would most probably not work again this time. There will be violence, it is clear from the attitudes expressed.... whether you admit it or not, judging by the views you expressed, how would you feel if a TC came and lived right next door to you? Would you be nice to them? Doubtful....

The bottom-line is it will be a unified country where all citizens have equal rights, irrespective of which "canton" they lived in..... your property will be your property, and your rights your rights and in the end, you are governed by the same elected parties.

I don't hate anybody. I simply state the fact that Turks violate my human and democratic rights in my country and I have the right to fight against them to gain back my rights. Whats wrong with this?

The only thing wrong with this, as patriotic as it may seem, is that it will not reach a solution. Rights have been violated on both sides, albeit in varying degrees. However, again, for a settlement you must first acknowledge your fellow Turkish Cypriots as Cypriots....

TCs are the 18% and they will get an effective 50% power (this is the political equality of communities they want). Do the maths, if you are not very good at it I will help you. In effect if one community made by the 82% has the same power as the community of 18%, this means that 1 TC vote = about 4.5 GC votes. This means that 100.000 TCs can block a decision, but 200.000 GCs can not.
1 person is not equal to 1 person in this case.

I stand corrected. Just reading through the Annan plan again now and it is rather vague on this issue, but it seems that that is the case. Don't have time to search through the entire thing right now. I can understand the logic of the argument of the Greek Side and the fears from the Turkish side and it is simply something that has to be resolved through dialogue.

I do not want them to get the hell out. However they consider as acceptable a solution based on ethnic cleansing against us. Therefore I simply tell them that if for them ethnic cleansing against us is ok, then so it will be ethnic cleansing against them in the future. Or maybe you think we should always be the victims?

The solution does not incorporate ethnic cleansing on either side. It acknowledges the fears and realities on the ground. If the greek side continues to attack the tcs with accusations of ethnic cleansing, the turkish side naturally has a fear of a unification plan where everyone is suddenly instantaneously mingled between each other. There is the real chance of conflict against them. They are still, in-fact, a minority. This is a security measure that as unfortunate as it may seem, for the moment, is the only realistic solution. However, this does not create 2 countries, as mentioned above... it creates a Cyprus for Cypriots and the restituation of land that everyone is craving.

The way this is going there can only be victims Pirates. To create victors, you have to relax and both sides should listen to the other instead of throwing accusations and asking foreign powers to implement a plan. Dialogue between the 2 sides, is where it should be. How can both sides be expected to intertwine when they won't even talk to each other to reach a solution?

I look, so? Do you want to count people to see their position? Start with the most populous countries, China and India. Or maybe the "international community" for you are those that control the biggest media networks and they are very loud in order to promote their own interests?

The average person in China or india has absolutely no idea where Cyprus is and what the Cyprus problem is. I know because I am currently residing in Asia and have visited both countries. The average person in Europe, on the other hand, does.....

Peace, yet again

[erolz]

Erolz,
There are two ways:
1) let the past behind and start fresh on universally accepted principles like democracy and human rights based on what we have already agreed in 1960.

2) Continue the circle of blood.

Which one is going to be?

Was option one available to TC in 63 or 68 or 70 or 74 pre Turkish action in Cyprus? Clearly the answer is no imo. Why was it not an option then?

You talk about a 'return' to legality but do you accept that a return to the situation pre 74 is not a return to legality but a return to a different kind of illegality? If the period prior to 74 had been 'legal' then the events of 74 would not have happend imo. When you suggest a return to legality without accepting how illegal things were then, it seems to TC that you want a return to a period when GC were 'free' to oppress TC and did so. Can you not understand how unattractive that is to the TC community?

If you expect from us to accept and legalize anything from the illegal situation you created (partition, settlers etc) you can forget about it. We will not declare defeat if thats what you expected.

Again to a TC this sounds like everything should be returned to the pre 74 illegality - TC alone should pay all 'cost' of this return and GC should pay nothing - even though both sides have some culpability for what happened in 74 and why.

[Piratis]

In order for a mutual agreement, both sides have to make concessions.

I agree with this. So we had the 1960 agreements, and lets assume that those agreements could not work even today. So we agree that both sides have to make concessions. Can you tell me what concessions the TCs made from the 1960 agreements and compare them with the concessions that GCs are supposed to make?
Or maybe if I claim that I own the world, and then I agree to have just half of it, is considered a concession?

The problem is both sides are painting themselves as victims, and as such, blaming the other, and these attitudes are not conducive to restoring peace.

What I say is that we should leave the past behind and we should move ahead for something democratic with respect to human rights. However if TCs bring us the past trying to present themselves as the victims that now have to be rewarded we have no option other than responding, right?

The annan model is planned around the Swiss model. At no point to the separate cantons consider themselves racistly separating the people, be it from the German, French or Italian sides. They are all SWISS, irrespective of the Canton, but they have different ethnic heritage.

First of all, in Switzerland no ethnic cleansing was performed. Do you think that the Italians got their Canton by ethnically cleansing it from the French majority? In Cyprus the TCs do not own any part of Cyprus just by themselves, this is a huge difference. There is one thing to say "we, the great majority of this area decided to form a federation/confederation with another area" and a whole different thing to say "we, the minority of this area will ethnically cleanse it from the majority and then we will form a federation/confederation". It is like if the Italian speaking minority in the French Canton kicks out the French from one part of their Canton and then they demand that this area is recognized as a second Italian Canton. I hope you the difference.

Also, if you compare the Annan plan with the Swiss model you will realize that they are not as related as you might think. In Switzerland there is one central government that is above the cantons. According to Annan plan the central government of Cyprus would not be above the component states. Study a bit more the Annan plan and the swiss constitution (both of them are online in English) and you will see. Annan plan was nothing more than a disguised partition.

The solution does not incorporate ethnic cleansing on either side.

The etninic cleansing has already been performed. As you understand this is our main problem. What kind of "solution" would it be for us if it doesn't solve our problems? There is a difference between closing the Cyprus problem and solving the Cyprus problem. The annan plan didn't solve the problem, it just closed it declaring the TCs as the winners and us as the losers. Obviously we would never accept such thing.

The average person in China or india has absolutely no idea where Cyprus is and what the Cyprus problem is. I know because I am currently residing in Asia and have visited both countries. The average person in Europe, on the other hand, does.....

Go out in Switzerland and ask people about the Cyprus problem. They know Cyprus as a location and as a tourist destination. Beyond that the average Europeans know nothing more than the average Indians.

[Piratis]

Was option one available to TC in 63 or 68 or 70 or 74 pre Turkish action in Cyprus? Clearly the answer is no imo. Why was it not an option then?

You talk about a 'return' to legality but do you accept that a return to the situation pre 74 is not a return to legality but a return to a different kind of illegality? If the period prior to 74 had been 'legal' then the events of 74 would not have happend imo. When you suggest a return to legality without accepting how illegal things were then, it seems to TC that you want a return to a period when GC were 'free' to oppress TC and did so. Can you not understand how unattractive that is to the TC community?

When I talk to return to legality, I mean return to legality not any kind of illegality no matter where that comes from. Where did I denied the illegalities of GCs in that decade? I just said that those illegalities are 1/100th of yours and therefore you can not ask from us to be punished and you reworded.

Now if you want your revenge and the 30 years of occupation were not enough and you want to hit us as much as you can, go ahead. But this means you choose the continuation of the circle of blood. Just remember that this was your choice.

Again to a TC this sounds like everything should be returned to the pre 74 illegality - TC alone should pay all 'cost' of this return and GC should pay nothing - even though both sides have some culpability for what happened in 74 and why.

What cost would the TCs have to pay? Except if you consider as a cost to return what you stole from us. Apparently giving back what does not belong to you and to get back what belongs to you is not enough for you. You want to come out of this victorious, with gains on our loss.

[erolz]

What cost would the TCs have to pay? Except if you consider as a cost to return what you stole from us. Apparently giving back what does not belong to you and to get back what belongs to you is not enough for you. You want to come out of this victorious, with gains on our loss.

The cost you want us to pay alone and solely for events that were not caused by us alone and solely and that we did not control alone and solely are the cost (emotional and material) of leaving lands and property that we have spent 30 years investing in (emotionaly and materialy) whatever their legal ownership. You can say that is our fault alone that we chose to invest in these things that were not ours - but that is just to continue to deny the reality of why we ended up doing this. You want to believe that we chose to invest emotionaly and monetarily in land that did not belong to us because we are thieves. I suggest that the reality is markedly different from this and that GC played their part in creating this situation where many ordinary TC had very little choice but to invest emotionaly and financialy in property that you used to control. This is not about winning and loosing - it's about accepting that TC (particularly ordianry TC) were not solely responsible for creating the situation where they ended up living in and investig in GC homes and thus should nothave to carry the burden of rectifying this situation alone. GC also have a repsonsibility and culpability in creating a situation where they lost their lands and thus they must also pay some of the cost in rectifiying this situation.