Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

If you want to be less political why not use "GC properties" without any adjectives?

because gc properties does not distinguish between what you have in the south and what you have lost in the north. GC properties in the north would do that but again former is just an abreviation for that

oh come on. It is very clear what you mean by "former" who are you trying to bullshit here?

You assume what I mean and I know what I mean. You can also assume I am a lier and a bullshitter if you so wish. Again I know wheather I am and to what degree I am

You avoided answering the question.
Can you say that what we legally own is there and we can take it back whenever we want like you can do?

You can not come and take what was your before 74 without an agreed settlement that is true. It is also tru that we can not come back and take what was ours before 63 without a settlement and you beleif that we can is misplaced. We could not do so in 73 befofre you had lost your property so why should I beleive we can do so now. Why have TC living in the south had to go to court to get a right even to vote as GC let alone as their rights under the 60 consitituion and are still waiting for the courts decsion to be implemented?

You criminals cry for one decade, forgetting what you did in the rest of your history (before and after) to us!!!!

Your analogy was flawed because it starts in 74, as if there was no history or relevenace to events before 74 - a standard GC 'propaganda' position that does absolutely nothing to aid mutual understanding and cooperation. When I made clear the failing of your analogy you thrn resort to your next position - 'yeah some minor and small things may have happened to TC for a short period of time and a few GC extremists might have had a hand in that but it is nothing comparted to what the ottomans did to us'.

What I am concerned with is the modern state of Cyprus in the 20th and 21st centuaries and not ancient history. The modern state of Cyprus as an independent nation was born out conflict between TC and GC. It was born out of fanatical GC notions of Greek nationalist desiers that they sought to impose on their TC brothers whethert they liked it or not and TC attempts to resist this. As long as you continue to present the kind of view that what happened in the period 60-74 was some kind of unimportant temporary blip of a few GC extremists doing a few bad things against a tiny number of TC I will attempt to refute this view. This period of 63-74 defines Cyprus and everything that has happened afterwards. Even if Turkey had allowed only 5 years of oppression by a GC majority against a TC minority in Cyprus before taking action to stop this, or 3 years or 1 year it would not change the point. The point being how did GC behave to TC that they shared the island with and agreed to share the island with. Did they treat TC and the agreements made with them with respect and in accordance with ideal of human rights and legality. Or did they seek to use the balance of power they had in Cyprus to reneage on the agreements they made with TC community, to use violence against the TC community, to try and force the TC community to accept GC demands and wishes. You can not understand the history of Cyprus as a modern indpendent state or what happend in 74 or why there is still no resolution to the problem wiothout recognising and understanding what happened in the period 63-74. That is just reality. It is not about 'numbers' or 'how long'. It is about how did the GC community behave towards the TC community before there was direct Turkish military protection for the TC community. They fact is they behaved lamentably badly. Without regard or respect for legality, or human rights and with a racism. These realities are inextricablly linked with the events of 74 and till today. You however do not want to accept these realites. You either want to pretend that history started in 74 (as per your analogy) or pretend that what happend over 500 years ago and how people behaved then is as relevant to undestanding the failure of Cyprus as a modern indpendent nation as what happen 40 years ago from this nation birth.

[suetoniuspaulinus]

former is shorter and actually conatins less poltical conotatios and judgments as well.

"former" is simply incorrect and the only thing that shows is your desire to become the new owners of our properties. If you want to be less political why not use "GC properties" without any adjectives?

Why? becuase I used the word 'former' as a convient lable for such land?

oh come on. It is very clear what you mean by "former" who are you trying to bullshit here?

I could say your properties were not stolen from you but you chose to leave them, and that others did not chose to leave there properties and thus remined - but I would not dream of being so 'biased' or unconcerned for GC feelings and points of view.

You avoided answering the question.
Can you say that what we legally own is there and we can take it back whenever we want like you can do? Or you are going to shoot us and beat us to death again if we try to take what legally belongs to us?

Actualy it's more like your uncle raped my sister repeatedly and without shame (whilst telling the world my sister was begging for it) and then eventualy my bigger stonger uncle comes and puts up a guard around your uncles house and stops him from leaving the house (infringes his human rights) to bring an end to the rape of my sister and you claim this illeaglity must end and has nothing to do with the earlier repeated rape of my sister which you still claim was not rape but was actualy at her request so your uncle can go back to raping my sister with impunity. All on the basis of your uncles human right to free movement and to be able to rape my sister if he wants.

Oh really? Dude, you were torturing and oppressing the GCs for almost 400 years and for the last 30 decades you performed ethnic cleansing over 1/3rd of the island. IF what we did to you in one decade with some 100s victims is rape, then what is the 400 years of oppression, the 30 years of occupation and ethnic cleansing and the 10s of thousands of GCs that that you killed??

You criminals cry for one decade, forgetting what you did in the rest of your history (before and after) to us!!!!

Mr Piratis

As usual. your posts leave me in awe.

I have a question Mr Piratis.

Who are the Greek Cypriots??

[Kifeas]

What I am concerned with is the modern state of Cyprus in the 20th and 21st centuaries and not ancient history. The modern state of Cyprus as an independent nation was born out conflict between TC and GC. It was born out of fanatical GC notions of Greek nationalist desiers that they sought to impose on their TC brothers whethert they liked it or not and TC attempts to resist this. As long as you continue to present the kind of view that what happened in the period 60-74 was some kind of unimportant temporary blip of a few GC extremists doing a few bad things against a tiny number of TC I will attempt to refute this view. This period of 63-74 defines Cyprus and everything that has happened afterwards.

What I do not read here is your mentioning of the equally fanatical nationalistic TC and Turkish desires to methodically prepare the ground for the partitioning of the island, which is not at all entirely unrelated to the present situation we are faced with.

[Piratis]

because gc properties does not distinguish between what you have in the south and what you have lost in the north. GC properties in the north would do that but again former is just an abreviation for that

An abbreviation? sorry, but "former GC properties" is not an abbreviation for "GC properties in the north". If your property in London was referred as "your former property" you wouldn't find any problem with that?

You assume what I mean and I know what I mean.

What you say is clear, I assume nothing.

You can not come and take what was your before 74 without an agreed settlement that is true. It is also tru that we can not come back and take what was ours before 63 without a settlement and you beleif that we can is misplaced. We could not do so in 73 befofre you had lost your property so why should I beleive we can do so now.

You can. At least we are not the ones who stop you. All you need to do is to end the illegal occupation.

Why have TC living in the south had to go to court to get a right even to vote as GC let alone as their rights under the 60 consitituion and are still waiting for the courts decsion to be implemented?

Because TCs wanted to vote separetly from GCs, and TCs choose not to participate in RoC but instead to support the occupation.

As I said, you are the one who insist on the illegalities. We have no problem if both sides get ALL their legal rights simultaneously. So, do you want that too? (the answer is apparently no, right?)

Your analogy was flawed because it starts in 74, as if there was no history or relevenace to events before 74 - a standard GC 'propaganda' position that does absolutely nothing to aid mutual understanding and cooperation.

Erolz, you are the ones who choose to start history from the year that suits you. I don't do that, and a quick search in this forum can confirm this.
I start from the begining until today.
On the other hand you start in a year that suits you and stop in another year that suits you. Like history before and after those years never existed! Like the whole history that matters is one decade!!
Like that decade can excuse the crimes that you did against us in the centuries before that and the crimes you did after that, you do now and you want to continue to do forever.

So according to Erolz, 1 decade of crimes by GCs, can excuse one millennium of crimes by Turks and TCs, but centuries of crimes by Turks can not excuse even 1 year of crimes by GCs. Like the Turks should be allowed to do crimes and get away with it, while GCs by doing just 1/1000th of those crimes should be punished with the heaviest of punishments!!

Who are the Greek Cypriots??

Greek Cypriots are the ones who share the Greek Cypriot culture and heritage. The Greek Cypriot culture is a type of Greek culture with several unique elements. satisfied?

[erolz]

What I do not read here is your mentioning of the equally fanatical nationalistic TC and Turkish desires to methodically prepare the ground for the partitioning of the island, which is not at all entirely unrelated to the present situation we are faced with.

I am more than happy to discuss the aspects you mention above - but in order to do this (and the point of my reply to Piratis) you have to recognise the relvance of this period of history in understanding the Cyprus problem as it exists today (and uderstand how different the relevance of what the ottomans did 500 years ago is)

So I am more than happy to discuss this in the approiate context - but that was not the point of my previous post.

I agree that there were TC who were as fanatical about TAKSIM as GC were about ENOSIS. I do also subscribe to the view that TAKSIM was a (inevitbale) response to ENOSIS and not an idea that lived in isolation. My personal view is that if there had been no TC in cyprus the GC would have still desired ENOSIS following the end of British rule. I am not convinced that if there had been no TC on Cyprus TC would have been so fanticaly determined to unite with Turkey rather than have an independent Turkish state. I would also point out the number of TC fanatics persuing TAKSIM and nothing but TAKSIM was less than GC persuing ENOSIS and only ENOSIS. That they were less in absolute numbers is beyond dispute imo. I also beleieve they were less in relative to population size numbers as well. I am also of the view that ideologicaly TAKSIM was less 'oppressive' an idea as ENOSIS on the basis that ENOSIS was about forcing subjegation of GC will on TC totaly, where as TAKSIM was more about accepting that two different groups had differnt desires and some sort of agreed split would allow BOTH some degree of their desires. TAKSIM as an idea did not require GC to submit to TC will, just to agree a physical seperation. ENOSIS did require TC to submit to GC will entirely and was an expression of a GC desire for Greeks to control all of cyprus and all it's people both TC and GC.

So I totaly agree with you that the things you mention are related to the situation we are in today. The details of that relationship I am more than happy to discuss. The point of my post however was to refute the idea (piratis) that the events of 60-74 have no relevance to the situation we are in today or they have the same relevance as what the ottomans did 500 years ago.

[magikthrill]

I am also of the view that ideologicaly TAKSIM was less 'oppressive' an idea as ENOSIS on the basis that ENOSIS was about forcing subjegation of GC will on TC totaly, where as TAKSIM was more about accepting that two different groups had differnt desires and some sort of agreed split would allow BOTH some degree of their desires. TAKSIM as an idea did not require GC to submit to TC will, just to agree a physical seperation. ENOSIS did require TC to submit to GC will entirely and was an expression of a GC desire for Greeks to control all of cyprus and all it's people both TC and GC.

taksim would require the forced removal of Greek Cypriots from their homeland of millenia.

enosis would entitle TCs to live peacefully in their homes of centuries the same way the turkish greeks live in thrace, rhodes* and other parts of Greece.

---------
* the Turkish Rhodes protested against the 1974 invasion, something i found quite interesting.

[Piratis]

Yes Erolz, all the crimes that you committed against us, which are 100 times more than the other way around, are either:
1) Irrelevant
or
2) Excused

Whatever...

[Piratis]

Turkish calculations:

Turks committed 100X crimes, GCs committed 2X crimes.

Subtract 99X of crimes from the Turks because they are either irrelevant or excused, and this leaves the Turks with just 1X crimes.

Therefore the GCs have to be punished again with even more crimes against them.

We got the logic Erolz, don't worry. I hope you also got that we will not accept to be victimized by you again, and that we will fight for justice no matter how long that takes.

[Murtaza]

I am also of the view that ideologicaly TAKSIM was less 'oppressive' an idea as ENOSIS on the basis that ENOSIS was about forcing subjegation of GC will on TC totaly, where as TAKSIM was more about accepting that two different groups had differnt desires and some sort of agreed split would allow BOTH some degree of their desires. TAKSIM as an idea did not require GC to submit to TC will, just to agree a physical seperation. ENOSIS did require TC to submit to GC will entirely and was an expression of a GC desire for Greeks to control all of cyprus and all it's people both TC and GC.

taksim would require the forced removal of Greek Cypriots from their homeland of millenia.

enosis would entitle TCs to live peacefully in their homes of centuries the same way the turkish greeks live in thrace, rhodes* and other parts of Greece.

---------
* the Turkish Rhodes protested against the 1974 invasion, something i found quite interesting.

creete?

[detailer]

I am also of the view that ideologicaly TAKSIM was less 'oppressive' an idea as ENOSIS on the basis that ENOSIS was about forcing subjegation of GC will on TC totaly, where as TAKSIM was more about accepting that two different groups had differnt desires and some sort of agreed split would allow BOTH some degree of their desires. TAKSIM as an idea did not require GC to submit to TC will, just to agree a physical seperation. ENOSIS did require TC to submit to GC will entirely and was an expression of a GC desire for Greeks to control all of cyprus and all it's people both TC and GC.

taksim would require the forced removal of Greek Cypriots from their homeland of millenia.

enosis would entitle TCs to live peacefully in their homes of centuries the same way the turkish greeks live in thrace, rhodes* and other parts of Greece.

---------
* the Turkish Rhodes protested against the 1974 invasion, something i found quite interesting.