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First Results of Bicommunal Poll

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby MicAtCyp » Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:31 pm

Erol wrote: I think this perception is based more on the reality
that most TC that lost land in the south and recieved
'compensatory' land in the north did not get 3 times as
much land (or value of land) as they lost


From what I know what you said is true. The question however is go got the so much surplus? Some elitists,the Turkish Generals as a bribe, the settlers, or all these 3 groups?

**********************

Alex,

about the Property committee I totally disagree with you. This is one of the main reasons the Anan Plan failed and any settlement that will not let the people take direct control of their properties will fail again. This WILL NOT create chaos! What will create chaos, and perhaps revolution is the Property committee.To tell you the truth the best it can end up with is "apou faei faei". (= a race of grabbing from the pie.)
i am wondering whether your questionaire made it clear that the propertries would be hanndled by a committee...

Alex wrote: As to temporary workers, I agree that there should not
be any ethnic/racial distinction and that workers from
Turkey should have the same rights to come and work as
philippinos or bulgarians or syrians or whatever. They
should be able to stay for a fixed number of years only,
after which time they will have to return to their
country to be replaced by other workers.


Non Europeans are NOT allowed anymore. No licences are renewed, In 4 years the number of Indians Philippinos etc will be zero.

wrote: OK, I get it . You're doing a "MicAtCyp", if I may use this expression.


Oh, no! I strongly protest! You are a psychologist and you used your proffesional skills to expose my secrets. :wink: :lol:

Sadik wrote: It's around 40 thousand. I know that the Turkish
side could not provide a list of 45 thousand names to
the UN, who were to stay in Cyprus according to the
Annan Plan, because there weren't that many that had
TRNC citizenships.


The Anan plan said 45,000 including children. Talat provided 40,000 without their children!
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:47 pm

MicAtCyp wrote: about the Property committee I totally disagree with you. This is one of the main reasons the Anan Plan failed and any settlement that will not let the people take direct control of their properties will fail again. This WILL NOT create chaos! What will create chaos, and perhaps revolution is the Property committee.To tell you the truth the best it can end up with is "apou faei faei". (= a race of grabbing from the pie.)


OK, I am glad to see that we have finally touched upon the root of our disagreement over this issue, which disagreement has been evident for quite some time.

Firstly let me say that I am aware of the risk of corruption within the property board. Proper procedure and constant monitoring/scrutiny will be required if that pitfall is to be avoided, but I do believe it can be avoided. After all, the Property Board would be constantly in the light of publicity, and with proper procedure I doubt that fraud would go undetected for long.

But let's go to the essence of this issue. I will try to explain why I believe it is imperative to have a property committee, and you can explain to me why it is imperative not to have one.

Let's take a case study. We have one TC that has been given a GC house after 1974, and now (after the solution) he wishes to keep this house in exchange for the house he had in the south. We also have the GC refugee, who was the owner of this house, but who according to the hypothetical settlement is now entitled to a new house in the same town or village - or alternatively monetary compensation, if he opts not to get a new house.

Without a Property Board, how do you propose the issue should be settled? Are you suggesting that the TC current occupant should give his own property in the south directly to the GC refugee, who will then be responsible to sell it himself in the free market until he raises enough money to "build the new house in the same town or village" that he is entitled to? And what if the value of the TC's original property in the south is slightly less than the value of the GC property he wishes to exchange it for? Presumably he will have to pay the difference in cash, yes? What if he doesn't pay? Ah, at point we start hiring lawyers. (cost, cost). The TC says his property in the south is not worth any less than the property in the north. How do we ascertain the truth? Well, we hire a quantity surveyor, who will also be charging 100 pounds per hour (or whatever it is they charge, probably because of extremely high demand for his services he will be charging closer to 300 pounds per hour). So, once the truth of the matter has been ascertained, the trial can go ahead, and a few years (and a few hunder thousands pounds in legal costs) later the GC will be able to get the cash he deserves + a TC property in some village of Paphos or Limassol that to him is personally useless. Of course, he will also be getting an entitlement to build a house in an empty plot that has been allocated to him (I am not sure by who, since there won't be a property board) in his original town in the north. All he has to do now is sell the TC property in the village of Limassol, in order to raise the cash to build his home. Of course, thousands upon thousands of GCs will be trying to sell their ex-TC property simultaneously, which will be great news for the property developers who wish to purchase such real estate for their agro-tourism projects but very bad news for the average refugee who will be seeing property prices plummet to the bottom.

But let's say that after all these ordeals, the GC raises enough funds to build his home. Who will he have to turn to then? The construction companies. Of course, thousands of GCs will be asking for the services of these companies simultaneously, and there are only a limited number of construction companies, so guess what will happen to construction costs.

All this, I like to call by the convenient name of "chaos". :roll:

A Property Board, in contrast, would absorb all these fluctuations with relative ease. If a current occupant refuses to pay what he owes, the legal service of the Board and the quantity surveyors of the Board will deal with the issue at a much lower cost, since they will be full time employees of the Board rather than professionals who charge by the hour. The GC owner will not have to wait for the dispute to be resolved before he can receive his compensation, which will be dealt as a totally separate matter to the debt which the TC occupant has with the Board. The GC also will not have to take as compensation some useless-to-him property in paphos or limassol, but rather the board will take in this property and then allow sales in a controlled fashion, with a view to maintaining the macro-economic stability of the country. As for the new home for the GC refugee, the Property Board will put out an invitation for tenders, which tender various pan-European construction companies will take up, and the Property Board can accept the offer of the lowest bidder. One buyer, many sellers, low actual costs due to economies of scale: Construction costs for a house cannot get any lower. All that the GC refugee needs to know, is that within two or three years of the settlement he will be receiving a new home in the town or village of his ancestry. End of story.

Sure, the Property Board will make a loss at the end of the day, and someone will have to foot the bill. In the Annan Plan, the UCR was supposed to foot the bill. I propose that international donors, or perhaps Turkey and Greece, should undertake to "balance the books" when the Property Board is wrapped up 15 or 20 years down the road.

I await to hear your thoughts ...
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Postby erolz » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:02 pm

MicAtCyp wrote: From what I know what you said is true. The question however is go got the so much surplus? Some elitists,the Turkish Generals as a bribe, the settlers, or all these 3 groups?


Some elitisits got 'surplus', some to Turkish Generals (but this is very small in over all terms - there are not that many generals), some to settlers, some (quite a significant % I am guessing) is currently military bases and some is 'state' land. This are my assumptions - I do not have hard figures on these or the split between these groups. In a solution I personaly do not have any problem with GC who land has been taken by any of these groups having first choice of if they want them back or prefer compensation for not having them back.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:03 am

Don't forget all the property that is being sold off to foreigners!
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:14 am

Alexandre,

I think what is at issue is the rights of the property holders and at what level of the pecking order they are placed.

THere obvioulsy needs to be a mechanism for handling all these property issues but I think what MicAtCyp is trying to say is that the refugees should be given the CHOICE as to what they want to do, rather than have a settlemnt imposed according to some arbitary formula. This can be done within the confines of the property board.

For example, the refugees would have had immovable property as well as land which they used for agriculture. It may not be enough to just build a new house for the refugee if that refugee can't have back his ancestral land that previous generations of his family worked hard on.
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Postby erolz » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:51 am

-mikkie2- wrote:Don't forget all the property that is being sold off to foreigners!


This is not an equivalent category in terms of the question being asked. The question being asked was if the TRNC was made up of 3 times more land than TC owned pre 74 and if most ordianary TC who lost land in the south do not have 3 times more land in the north in exchange, where has the other 2/3rds gone?. Property sold to foreigners is not one of the categories that answers this. Property sold to foreginers can have come from any of the categories I listed - though I believe the vast majority of it comes for a a category not in that list (TC that got equivalent land for land in the south). This category of land is a set made up in parts from all the others and not an equivalent category in it's own right in this context.

Or to try and explain this another way. No foreigner has obtained GC land in the north _directly_. All such land has been obtained VIA one of these other categories (the ones accounting for the 1/3 or the ones accounting for the 2/3rds) and as such is not logicaly a category equivalent to the others but dervied from them.

With respect it would seem to me that not for the first time you have let your (understandable and very justifyable with regard to this issue) anger cloud your 'logic' and ability to think clearly.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:06 am

-mikkie2- wrote:For example, the refugees would have had immovable property as well as land which they used for agriculture. It may not be enough to just build a new house for the refugee if that refugee can't have back his ancestral land that previous generations of his family worked hard on.


Yes, I am sure they would like to get everything back, but don't you agree that a solution has to be a compromise? If GC owners get first choice on every single piece of property, where does that leave the TCs and the communities they have built up over the last thirty years?

Certainly, as much choice as possible should be included in a final settlement, but at some point we will have to draw the line and say, "no, in this case it cannot be me first, the other guy has to take priority".

I think the majority of GCs can indeed live with such a compromise, so long as the right of return is in some way granted for each and every refugee.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:11 pm

I'll be publishing the results in a few days, but in the mean time I thought you might find the following charts interesting ...

This one is Greek Cypriot underlying attitudes:

Image


And this one is Turkish Cypriot underlying attitudes:

Image


This one is Greek Cypriot motives for a Solution:

Image


And this one is Turkish Cypriot motives for a Solution:

Image
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Postby magikthrill » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:16 pm

alexandre

thanks man these are ineed interesting.

if took me a while to look through them though cause theyre so big. think you can minimize their size ?
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Postby erolz » Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:17 pm

Hi Alexandros

Picccies ate kinda big - but very interesting so thanks for posting them.

How are these 'mean' figures derived and directly comparable accross the two groups (TC and GC) ?
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