Cyprus-Forum.com

[CBBB]

I think an article published by Turgut Afşaroğlu published in Afrika on 5 January 2009 addresses this point very well. I put a translation of it on another thread and here it is:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any real person or corporate body. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

The simple truth is that you can

EITHER

issue title deeds for land which was confiscated during the 1974 invasion and which under international law remains the property of Greek Cypriots

OR

you can defend legitimate Turkish Cypriot property rights under international law

but NOT both.

The rights and responsibilities are suspended in the TRNC not the "RoC"...Is there a UN resolution or EU rule that says that the TCs cannot claim their property or compensation apart from this Local law of residing in the "RoC" for 6 months???
I think the Brits in the "RoC" should be targeted in the same way....Profiting from my country as a whole...They are no more morally right than the Brits in the TRNC....I am asking questions as to whether this is achievable or not.

I think you are losing it zan!

[zan]

I think an article published by Turgut Afşaroğlu published in Afrika on 5 January 2009 addresses this point very well. I put a translation of it on another thread and here it is:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any real person or corporate body. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

The simple truth is that you can

EITHER

issue title deeds for land which was confiscated during the 1974 invasion and which under international law remains the property of Greek Cypriots

OR

you can defend legitimate Turkish Cypriot property rights under international law

but NOT both.

The rights and responsibilities are suspended in the TRNC not the "RoC"...Is there a UN resolution or EU rule that says that the TCs cannot claim their property or compensation apart from this Local law of residing in the "RoC" for 6 months???
I think the Brits in the "RoC" should be targeted in the same way....Profiting from my country as a whole...They are no more morally right than the Brits in the TRNC....I am asking questions as to whether this is achievable or not.

I think you are losing it zan!

From where you stand I don't doubt that you think that...Still...LIfe goes on...

[Nikitas]

Zan,

What would be the complaint against a British person who bought legal property in the RoC? Is there any evidence of TC land being used by GC builders to build homes which were then sold to foreign buyers?

[Kikapu]

The rights and responsibilities are suspended in the TRNC not the "RoC"...Is there a UN resolution or EU rule that says that the TCs cannot claim their property or compensation apart from this Local law of residing in the "RoC" for 6 months???.

NO DOUBLE DIPPING ALLOWED.!

[Tim Drayton]

I think an article published by Turgut Afşaroğlu published in Afrika on 5 January 2009 addresses this point very well. I put a translation of it on another thread and here it is:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any real person or corporate body. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

The simple truth is that you can

EITHER

issue title deeds for land which was confiscated during the 1974 invasion and which under international law remains the property of Greek Cypriots

OR

you can defend legitimate Turkish Cypriot property rights under international law

but NOT both.

Tim, the properties issue is not that simple how T Avsaraoglu put forward and u take it as a basis for ur arguements. Try walking in TC's shoes and u tell me what would u do under such circumstances? What had u done when u were sure of that GC leadership would never accept TC community as a politically equal state partner? How Turkey would restore the consti,tutional order while it was/is cyrstal clear that the leadership of GC community insist on "majority rule"? TC community wasted so much time in hope of there would be a "just" solution. The economical loss, psychological damage, educational loss and development loss of TCs have been huge during this "poltical equality/majority rules" struggle. TC leadership has always been aware of what they have done. They have both legal and factual arguments. They r also aware of other's "when it fits" type of justice mentality.

Now Tim, please take all these factors into consideration, have a retrospective look, find what triggered what, try walking in the shoes of Turkish side, imagine that u were/are the leader of the Turks and tell me what u would have done or do.

I agree that nothing is very simple. However, when I read the text of İsmet İnönü's letter to the Turkish Cypriot leadership advising them to return to their posts within the RoC, and warning of them of the consequences of failing to do so, I cannot help but thinking that in hindisght he was right. A report compiled by the Attorney General in 1974 warned Denktash of the dire consequences of granting title deeds for Greek Cypriot owned land. Again, in hindsight it appears that the Attorney General was right. At every stage, there were other potential courses of action apart from that selected by the Turkish Cypriot leadership.

[Nikitas]

Tim,

The inescapable inference from the actions of the Denktash regime is that the intention was to create conditions, what later was called "realities on the ground", which would entrench partition. If you add the land issue, the changes in placec names, the change in currency, the importation of people then what you have is effective Enosis of the north with Turkey and exclusion of ALL other Cypriots. In the end it is EU membership more than anything else that has upse these plans. The TCs now look at the choice before them and have to figure out whether it is better to have some GC land in the north or be full and equal citizens of the EU.

Going beyond and looking at the post solution picture, I am convincced that people will gravitate to the centers of wealth and employment on the island. Already in the RoC there are problems of population sparsity in villages because young people migrate to the cities. It is obvious that in a post solution Cyprus the same will happen islandwide. Who in his right mind would want to remain in Karpasia or in Arhodes when the good jobs will be where they always were- Limassol, Nicosia and Famagusta. In the end this BBF plan seems to take into account "realities on the ground" and leaves out reality in general.

[insan]

I think an article published by Turgut Afşaroğlu published in Afrika on 5 January 2009 addresses this point very well. I put a translation of it on another thread and here it is:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any real person or corporate body. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

The simple truth is that you can

EITHER

issue title deeds for land which was confiscated during the 1974 invasion and which under international law remains the property of Greek Cypriots

OR

you can defend legitimate Turkish Cypriot property rights under international law

but NOT both.

Tim, the properties issue is not that simple how T Avsaraoglu put forward and u take it as a basis for ur arguements. Try walking in TC's shoes and u tell me what would u do under such circumstances? What had u done when u were sure of that GC leadership would never accept TC community as a politically equal state partner? How Turkey would restore the consti,tutional order while it was/is cyrstal clear that the leadership of GC community insist on "majority rule"? TC community wasted so much time in hope of there would be a "just" solution. The economical loss, psychological damage, educational loss and development loss of TCs have been huge during this "poltical equality/majority rules" struggle. TC leadership has always been aware of what they have done. They have both legal and factual arguments. They r also aware of other's "when it fits" type of justice mentality.

Now Tim, please take all these factors into consideration, have a retrospective look, find what triggered what, try walking in the shoes of Turkish side, imagine that u were/are the leader of the Turks and tell me what u would have done or do.

I agree that nothing is very simple. However, when I read the text of İsmet İnönü's letter to the Turkish Cypriot leadership advising them to return to their posts within the RoC, and warning of them of the consequences of failing to do so, I cannot help but thinking that in hindisght he was right. A report compiled by the Attorney General in 1974 warned Denktash of the dire consequences of granting title deeds for Greek Cypriot owned land. Again, in hindsight it appears that the Attorney General was right. At every stage, there were other potential courses of action apart from that selected by the Turkish Cypriot leadership.

I agree that at every stage, there were other potential courses of action apart from that selected by the Turkish Cypriot leadership. Many years ago I questioned Denktas regarding "why u didn'ts" with 50 questions by a letter i sent him with the hand of his assistant secretary and later when he was being interviewed by Akay Cemal, live at a TV station. Unfortunately just a several of my questions answered by him. Then what left to me to do is reading more abt my history, evaluateing the events in correlation of it's triggers and make apprasials based on my opinions. Maybe u r acknowledged, mainland Turks have never been much knowledged abt the details of Cyprus problem, even the highest ranked Turkish military officers too.

Now, let's make some predictions what would have happened if TC leadership accepted to return ROC.

1- The leadership of 2 communities would keep talking "political eaquality/majority rule" issue while leaving TCs vulnerable to GC extremists and still burning hearts of Enosists.

2- TC leadership would completely have lost the opportunity for Taksim.

3- GC leadership would have accepted TCs as politically equal state partner and start a reconciliation process of 2 communities as well Hellenes and Turks.

[Piratis]

I think an article published by Turgut Afşaroğlu published in Afrika on 5 January 2009 addresses this point very well. I put a translation of it on another thread and here it is:

Lord, what a stupid, what a wretched community we are. It is probably impossible to find another community on this globe that fears the law as much as we do. Persistently and stubbornly we move outside international law, and at the same time are afraid.
***
International law says: - An international agreement, for example the 1960 Cyprus Agreements, retains its validity until a new one is concluded in its place. What did we do after 1974? We imagined that the Republic of Cyprus did not exist. Pushing to one side the fact that the guarantors’ sole right was to restore the broken-down Constitutional order, we abandoned our rights in the Republic of Cyprus. Denktash was elected Republic of Cyprus Vice-President in 1973. He had the right to continue in this capacity until 1978. However, no sooner had the TCFS been founded in 1975 than he abandoned this post. It is unclear whom he asked, from whom he obtained authority. If he had remained in this post until the end, he would have been able to veto the Republic of Cyprus’s unilateral EU entry and the Greek Cypriot side would have been unable to accede to the EU on its own.
***
International law says: - According to the Geneva Convention, moving people to a territory that has been taken by armed force, and granting them citizenship, is a crime. What did we do? First, in the name of agricultural labour we moved people from Turkey, then we gave them citizenship and the right to vote. What was the result? Turkish Cypriots have been turned into a minority in their own region and have been deprived of their political will. The elected have become Ankara’s puppets.
***
International law says: - You cannot hand out title deeds as you wish for land or property that has been taken with armed force, as though it belonged to you. What did we do? We issued title deeds not only to Turkish Cypriots coming from the south, but also to Turks coming from the north. At this point, let me remind you: until the 1985 TRNC Constitution was adopted, only Usage Certificates were issued rather than title deeds. This was because we opposition Founding Assembly members at the time saw to it that, in accordance with international law, an article was placed in the 1975 TCFS Constitution: - Regardless of any other provision in this Constitution, immovable property abandoned by Greek Cypriots may not be transferred to any real person or corporate body. This article was removed from the 1985 TRNC Constitution and the mad rush to issue title deeds ensued.
***
First the Loizidou case, then the Aresti and Turkish Bank suits came in quick succession. We have lost all of these suits. You should be in no doubt that the Orams case will also result in our defeat. So what needs to be done? Initially, as Barış Mamalı has said, it is necessary to pay compensation immediately in the Orams case, without awaiting the European Court of Justice judgment and without leaving the English courts to deliberate on the matter. It is then necessary to start similar actions to the Orams case concerning construction without permission on Turkish Cypriot land in South Cyprus. Let me immediately pass on a piece of information: the Greek Cypriot side has not been outdone by us. Construction has taken place on a total of 8357 Turkish Cypriot plots without obtaining permission from the Turkish Cypriot owner. Not only the Orams case, but also suits like the Loizidou, Aresti and Turkish bank suits, create precedents for us. And in these matters we can file countersuits. It is like we said! Turks are afraid of the law.

The simple truth is that you can

EITHER

issue title deeds for land which was confiscated during the 1974 invasion and which under international law remains the property of Greek Cypriots

OR

you can defend legitimate Turkish Cypriot property rights under international law

but NOT both.

Tim, the properties issue is not that simple how T Avsaraoglu put forward and u take it as a basis for ur arguements. Try walking in TC's shoes and u tell me what would u do under such circumstances? What had u done when u were sure of that GC leadership would never accept TC community as a politically equal state partner? How Turkey would restore the consti,tutional order while it was/is cyrstal clear that the leadership of GC community insist on "majority rule"? TC community wasted so much time in hope of there would be a "just" solution. The economical loss, psychological damage, educational loss and development loss of TCs have been huge during this "poltical equality/majority rules" struggle. TC leadership has always been aware of what they have done. They have both legal and factual arguments. They r also aware of other's "when it fits" type of justice mentality.

Now Tim, please take all these factors into consideration, have a retrospective look, find what triggered what, try walking in the shoes of Turkish side, imagine that u were/are the leader of the Turks and tell me what u would have done or do.

You demand to have a separate state on land that belongs to us by 82% and you demand that majority rule, the cornerstone of democracy, to be abandoned. Only a Turk could have such outrageous demands and naturally no civilized person could accept such things or "walk in your shoes". Have you ever heard anywhere else in the whole world a minority demanding to have their own state on land that belongs to others by 82%???

And then because we reject your outrageous demands, which you are trying to force on us by keeping our land as hostage and blackmailing us, you think our refusal to capitulate can be an excuse for you for yet more crimes and illegalities?

No mate, it can not. You have no excuse.

In Turkey the Kurds are the majority in Kurdistan area, and in fact they existed there even before the Turks arrived, and not only you don't allow them a "politically equal state", you don't even recognize their human and minority rights!

And then you come here with such an audacity, talking about "your state" on land that belongs to us by 82%, as if such thing is your right?

[Tim Drayton]

With reference to this question of whether the Turkish Cypriots could have returned to the Republic in 1964 as İsmet İnönü advised them to do in his letter dated 9 March of that year, the experiences of the Turkish Cypriot judges, who apparently did this, appears to be instructive. According to the following source, this move ended in failure:

http://www.sam.gov.tr/perceptions/Volum ... zersay.pdf

Turkish-Cypriot judges continued to take part in
the judiciary, but this was an exceptional case. It was maintained that the
Turkish-Cypriot judges had resumed their functions in 1964, stayed in office until
1966 and abided by the Greek-Cypriot Supreme Court judgments in their own
decisions. According to the Greek-Cypriot authorities, such an attitude reflects the
recognition of the ‘lawful existence and functioning of the Government’.118
Nevertheless, it is understood from the statements of the Turkish-Cypriot judges
that they attended the courts because of their expectation that the violations of
constitutional provisions would be eliminated and the abnormal situation would be
ended.119 Moreover, on 2 June 1966, they were stopped at the checkpoint,
prevented from attending the courts and one of them ‘was removed from his
chambers at gun point and taken back to the checkpoint’.120 It should also be
emphasised that during the period 1963-1966, despite the participation of the
Turkish-Cypriot judges, some cases related to Turkish-Cypriot citizens were
brought before Greek-Cypriot judges in violation of the 1960 Constitution.121
Violations existed, because the presence of Turkish-Cypriot judges is mandatory for
cases involving a Turkish-Cypriot as a plaintiff or a defendant.122
This event proves the absence of ‘popular Cypriot support’ for the
Greek-Cypriot government and demonstrates the reluctance of the Greek-Cypriot
leaders to put an end to the abnormal situation on the Island, which was invoked as
an excuse to apply the doctrine of necessity. They refused to give a chance to acts
aiming at the application of constitutional provisions.

[MrH]

Piratis,

MrH wrote:
Hi Piratis,

Quote:
We started to use properties of TCs in the free areas of Cyprus only after the 1974 Turkish invasion, and after the 18% of TCs took the 37% of land and we had to house close to 200.000 refugees in the part of Cyprus we were left with.


There you go again on the issue of 18%! Stop looking at the Turkish Cypriots as a percentage but rather as a Partner (50%). Plus, are you saying that two wrongs make a write with the sale of TCs properties in the south using the 1974 intervention of Turkey as a pretext? And with the continuation of the Isolation on our people. If we were to have believed that one day we could live together as one, your continued mocking of everything Turkish Cypriots does not, and has never, painted a pretty picture.



Oh, so now you want the 50% for your 18% minority? And there was no TC property sales, and therefore no "two wrongs". The wrong was done only by you. We only temporarily use those properties to house our refugess because you keep them out of their own homes.

Quote:

Quote:
Still no title deeds were given to the refugees to those properties
.

I'm not sure if that is true Piratis, as I personally know that many re-issued title deeds from the Hijacked GC-ROC were originally Turkish Cypriot owned in 1963 (and were not sold but abandoned due to inter-communal fighting).



You don't know anything. You are just making up things.

Quote:

Quote:
Beyond that a proportionate portion of TCs properties could have been expropriated for building roads, hospitals, schools etc, just like they expropriate property from GCs to do so.


I guess that makes it okay, does it? So if we used so-called GC owned properties in the North for Hospitals and etc would that make it legal? Would me be able to take the builders of that particular Hospital to the ECHR or would the GC-ROC provide compensation via an EU-Sponsored Property Commission like in North Cyprus? Your cases to the ECHR are typical of the Double standards were expected from the GC-Controlled ROC.


Expropriation for public facilities is done by the state, and this is something done by all states. In Cyprus there is only one state, the Republic of Cyprus. So don't compare your criminal gang with the state.

Quote:

Quote:
On the other hand, the occupation regime issues fake title deeds to our properties and gives them not only to TCs, but to foreigners as well.


The "Occupation Regime", I'm sorry but it's called the TRNC. Like how we Do NOT recognise the GC-ROC (but do not rudely refer to it as the "Hijacked Regime"), we at least expected you (GCs) to perhaps refer to us as the "unrecognised TRNC" instead? The "Occupation Regime" you are referring to is not a Positive reflection of a state we voted for under our rights to self determination after years of failed UN Sponsored talks between 1974-1983 (How long did you expect us to wait! We even prior to the TRNC declaration, referred to our state as the "Turkish Federated State of Cyprus", in the view of perhaps reaching a Federal solution!). On the one hand you Want us to ALL live under one umbrella, trusting your people once again, only to continually criticise our state and position beyond any repair in Federal-relations. You don't see China calling Taiwan the "Occupied Regime" do you? I'm Sorry Piratis, but Talat and Christofias are not only going for a miracle with these talks, but for a the 8th Wonder of the world!


I am talking with facts. If you want to change the labels of things then I really don't care. In Cyprus there is only one state, the Republic of Cyprus, and 1/3rd of Republic of Cyprus is illegally occupied by Turkish troops. These are the facts.

Quote:

_________________
Quote:
The Turkish army ethnically cleansed the majority of Cypriots from north Cyprus, replaced them with Turkish settlers, and declared the "TRNC" on our land


And for this one, the Turkish Army actually stopped the Greek Coupists from Greece in 1974 from killing more of your people.


You mean like you saved us from the Venetians in 1571? Interesting way of helping us. Invade us, kill 1000s, violate our human rights, steal our lands, and then import Turkish settlers and give to them the lands stolen from us. Thank you for being so generous

Cyprus would have been so much better without your "help" and I really hope you will soon stop "helping".

WRONG! This is where the Greek Cypriots will always lose; your ideology is completely inaccurate and not very innovative considering Christofias was SO DESPERATE to have relaunched UN-Sponsored Unification talks with his Counterpart - Talat.

Piratis MY forum FRIEND, You, and Get Real (in particular) just don't get it. The only FACTS are the following:

1) The Greek and Turkish Cypriots are PARTNERS of the island of Cyprus, regardless of how large or small their population is today, or will be tomorrow! This appears to be a very hard fact for the GCs to understand!

2) The Greek Cypriot administration ONLY perceive to have a problem with TURKEY: if you have noticed! It's never with the Turkish Cypriots - ever wonder why piratis? We are not Stupid my friend, we know the game being played here; Show love to the Turkish Cypriots and Pitt them against the people of Turkey.

3) A Cyprus settlement tomorrow can only materialise as part of an amicable FEDERAL agreement, where if one side says "No", it WILL not happen - thus, you can imagine just how impatient the international community is getting towards the EU's mistake of allowing only Greek Cypriot representation of the entire island without actually being in control of it. Also, it's funny how the EU do NOT recognise the "Cease-fire line" as an official "border", but chooses to support Inter-communal talks in order to reach a "Federal" settlement of the "Two Sides" in Cyprus.

4)

I am talking with facts. If you want to change the labels of things then I really don't care. In Cyprus there is only one state, the Republic of Cyprus, and 1/3rd of Republic of Cyprus is illegally occupied by Turkish troops. These are the facts.

If the above Really were ACCEPTED so-called FACTS! by the international community, then why are there NO embargoes on the Republic of Turkey for their so-called acts of "Occupation" in Cyprus? Why are flights comfortably taking off from London heading for Ercan airport via Turkey? Why is the EU part financing huge Natural resource projects with Turkey knowingly that Turkey is supposedly occupying North Cyprus? Why is Turkey a Candidate country of the EU (why haven't they been kicked out!)? Why has the EU accepted that its rules and laws DO NOT apply to Northern Cyprus,? Why are advertisements of Northern Cyprus allowed on London transport tubes and buses, and across the EU as a matter of fact?

Here's Why?
Because the Turkish Troops in Cyprus are there until a CYPRUS SETTLEMENT is FINANLISED - and Christofias knows it. They are there under invitation. Turkish Troops will happily leave the island after an agreement is reached (as they had promised in the Annan Plan) and it's security will be passed on to the Turkish Cypriot Forces Command, which, over the past 15 years has been controlling the North anyway.

You must understand, along with the many other Greek Cypriots in this forum that all the pointless cases against Turkey at a time when our two leaders are seeking an internationally endorsed Cyprus Federal agreement will only complicate and undermine the matter (talks), thus throw the entire process down the drain and force the island into complete partition. If you don't believe me.....just watch this space and what will happen if the status quo continues.

Turkey will very easily solve the cases brought against it in the ECHR by signing a couple of pennies: Basically paying off the hungry Greek Cypriot wolves in collaboration with a balance sheet of what is also owned to the Turkish Cypriots (of course!) - then, it will have declared that the Property issue is resolved and fight for the recognition of the TRNC WITHOUT any Property or Land disputes, and declare that a Federal agreement based on a lack of confidence has been scarpered.

You're clearly not seeing the bigger picture - typical, and certainly not underestimated I must say!