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Therapon Konstantinou

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:42 pm

halil wrote:DT ,
to kill civilians or surrendered soldiers are criminal we all know it .It must be punished . In TC's news papers similar news is came out today how the 32 Civilian Turkish Cypriots have been taken from their works and killed . Claim says this news came out from the GC news paper called Haravgi .... The persons says this claim called Ronaldos Kaçaunis .He was a ex-History professor from oxford universities .

Here is the how news came out from the paper in Turkish . Hopefully Mr Tim can translate this one in English and You can compare it with Greek version of it .

BOTH side of the Stick is SHİT (Gagga ,BOK )

http://www.kibrispostasi.com/index.php/ ... ame/KIBRIS

Rum akademisyen 32 Türkün nasıl öldürüldüğünü anlattı
Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’nin kurulmasının hemen ardından Rumların Kıbrıslı Türklere karşı işledikleri suçlarla ilgili çok sayıda şahadet, BM belgesi, toplu mezarlar, v.b. bulunduğunu vurgulayan Rum Haravgi Gazetesi Oxford Üniversitesi eski Tarih profesörü akademisyen Ronaldos Kaçaunis’in bu konuda anlattıklarına yer verdi.

Kaçaunis’le yaptığı söyleşiyi “Kıbrıslı Türklere Karşı İşlenen Suçlarla İlgili Çok Sayıda Şahadet Var” başlığıyla okurlarına aktaran gazete, Kaçaunis’in; Rumların Kıbrıslı Türklere karşı suçlarına ilişkin ekserisi şifahi; çok şahadet bulunduğunu belirterek; kendisi 12 yaşındayken Mağusa’da gerçekleşen 32 Kıbrıslı Türkün katledilmesi olayını şöyle aktardı:

“3 Yunan subayın ve Lefkoşa Polis Müdürü’nün oğlunun da içerisinde bulunduğu bir araba -belki yanlışlıkla- kentin Türk bölgesine girdi. Türkler onları durdurup ateş etti ve yalnız bir tanesi sağ döndü. Ertesi günü bir grup Kıbrıslı Rum, Rum bölgesindeki bankalarda, dükkanlarda, NAAFI, v.b çalışan Kıbrıslı Türkleri tutukladı. Tümü sivil ve bir önceki gün meydana gelen olayla alakaları olmayan 32 Kıbrıslı Türk… Onları bir yere götürdüler ve öldürdüler. Daha sonra da toplu mezara gömdüler. Bu, aynı sayıdaki (32) Kıbrıslı Rum tarafından önceden planlanmış ve işlenmiş örgütlü bir suçtu. Bu Rumlar; ‘göze-göz’ dediğimiz şeyi uygulayan bir grubun mensuplarıydı. Ortam çok gergindi, Yunan subayların cenaze töreninde, o zamanlar Kıbrıs’ta görev yapan ve daha sonra diktatör olan Dimitrios Yoannidis konuşmuştu.

Mağusa polisi ilk andan beri biliyordu. Çok sayıda Kıbrıslı Türk, gün ortasında, şehir merkezinin çeşitli noktalarındaki dükkanlardan, banka şubelerinden toplanıp tutuklanmıştı. Onları kapalı araçlara doldurup kent dışında bir köye götürdüler, ateşli silahlarla öldürdüler ve toplu mezara gömdüler. Polislerin bunu fark etmemesi mümkün değildi. Ama, onayladıklarından mı yoksa korktuklarından mıdır bilmiyorum; sustular... Bugün halen konusu açıldığında; çeşitli yerlerde Kıbrıslı Türklerin mezarları olduğunu işitiyorum…”

Gazetenin “Bu toplu cinayet resmî kaynaklar tarafından not edildi mi?” sorusuna karşılık “Elbette, BM belgelerinde yer aldı” yanıtını veren Kaçaunis şunları da söyledi:

“BM Barış Gücü ve Kızılhaç mensupları 32 Kıbrıslı Türkü aylarca aradı ama gömüldükleri yer bulunamadı. O günkü şartlar içerisinde, bu olay da bırakıldı. Suçluların kimlikleri belirlenmedi, yargılanmadılar, tartışılmadı bile…”

Kaçaunis, özellikle 63-64 döneminde milliyetçi Rum gruplar, özellikle de Sampson’un silahlı grupları tarafından Kıbrıslı Türklere karşı çok ağır suçlar işlendiğini belirterek, Sampson güçlerinin Küçükkaymaklı baskınını örnek gösterdi. Kaçaunis, Muratağa, Atlılar ve Sandallar katliamlarını da hatırlatarak “100’den fazla sivil, kadın-çocuk katledildi” dedi.

Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’nin yıkılması ve ardından başlayan çatışmaların nedeninin; güya Zürich ve Londra Anlaşmaları ile Kıbrıslı Türklere aşırı haklar tanınmasından dolayı Rumların Anayasa’da değişiklik yapılmasını, Kıbrıslı Türklerin ise Anayasa’nın olduğu gibi kalmasını istemeleri olarak anlatıldığını hatırlatan Kaçaunis “Gerçeğin tamamı bu değil. Uygun zamanda Kıbrıs’ın Yunanistan’a bağlanması (ENOSİS) aracılığıyla (Anayasa’nın) lağvedilmesiydi” dedi.

Rolandos Kaçaunis ayrıca; EOKA’nın yalnız Kıbrıslı Türkleri değil, sol ideolojideki Rumları da düşman gördüğünü ve Sol’un siyasi varlığını ortadan kaldırmaya çalıştığını kaydetti.

Öte yandan POLİTİS Tarih Araştırmacısı-Yazar Makarios Drusiotis imzasıyla yayınladığı “63-64 Toplumlar Arası Çatışmalarıyla İlgili Yalanlar ve Gerçekler” başlıklı haberinde, Rum Eğitim Bakanlığı’nın Makarios’un isim günü dolayısıyla yayınladığı genelgede, 1963-64 olaylarıyla ilgili ifadelerini beğenmeyen ve kendi “gerçeklerini” yayımlayan Rum Orta Eğitim Öğretmenler Sendikası’nın (OELMEK) iddialarını belgelerle yalanladı.

OELMEK’in “gerçekler” açıklamasıyla 1963-64 olaylarının bütün sorumluluğunu Kıbrıs Türk tarafına yüklediğini, “Rum liderliğini da Türklerin ve yabancıların hilelerinin kurbanı” olarak gösterdiğini belirten gazete, OELMEK’in iddialarını şöyle sıraladı:

“OELMEK’e göre 1963-64 olayları şöyle gelişti:
1-Türkiye ‘Kıbrıs Türk aşırı uç örgütü TMT’yi silahlandırdı, o da Kıbrıs Türk toplumunu tamamen denetimi altına aldı.

2-20 Aralık 1963’te Kıbrıslı Türkler taksimi metotlamak amacıyla Kıbrıs’ın tamamındaki stratejik noktaları ele geçirmeye çalıştı.

3-Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’nin yasal makamları ile TMT arasındaki toplumlar arası çatışmalar BM’nin müdahalesiyle durdu.

4-Çatışmalar; Kıbrıslı Türklerin Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’nin bütün kurum ve organlarından ayrılmalarını ve Kıbrıslı Türklerin kendi kendilerini enklavlara hapsetmesine neden oldu”

TMT’nin var olduğunu ve Kıbrıslı Türklerin de silahlandığının “gerçeğin yarısı olduğunu” kaydeden gazete özetle şöyle devam etti:

“Kıbrıslı Rum milliyetçiler bir değil en az 15 örgüt kurdular. Bu örgütlerden en az 6’sı önce Kıbrıslı Rumlara, 1963 itibarıyla da Kıbrıslı Türklere yönelik şantaj ve cinayetler de dahil olmak üzere çok ciddi terör faaliyetlerinde bulundu.

Bu örgütlerin tamamı, birbirinden bağımsız olarak; mücadelelerinin hedefinin Enosis olduğunu açıkladı. Bunların hiçbiri Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’ne bağlılık belirtmedi, Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’ni yalnızca; Enosis’e giden yolda bir istasyon olarak gördüler. Makarios’un tutumu da buydu. Y. Papandreu’ya gönderdiği 1 Mart 1964 tarihli mektubunda ‘Anlaşmalar’ın daimi rejim olacağına bir an bile inanmadım’ diye yazdı.

Aynı dönemde Yunan derin devleti de Kıbrıs’a silah gönderdi. Yunan derin devletinin liderleri, daha sonra diktatörler olan Dimitrios Yoanninis ve Georgios Papadopulos’tu. Papadopulos, yasadışı örgütler kurmak ve onları silahlandırmak amacıyla en az iki kez gizlice Kıbrıs’a geldi. Papadopulos Yorgacis’le Akritas örgütü olarak bilinen Kıbrıslılar Milli Örgütü’nü silahlandırmak konusunda, Yunan hükümetinden gizli bir anlaşma yaptı. Papadopulos, Kıbrıs’a yaptığı gizli ziyaretinde 1963’te silahlı kuvvetler komutanı olan Vasos Lissaridis’le de temas etti. O zaman ELDİK’te (Yunan Alayı) görev yapan Yoannidis, örgütün askeri yöneticisiydi. Örgütten bağımsız hareket eden Nikos Sampson’un bölüklerini de silahlandırdı.

Bütün bunlar bilimsel olarak kanıtlanmış şeylerdir. Makarios da Y. Papandreu’ya gönderdiği mektupta bunu itiraf etmiş ve şöyle demişti:

‘Sayıları 5 bini aşkın eğitimli üyesi bulunan güçlü bir örgütümüz var. ELDİK kuvvetlerinin deneyimini kullanıyor ve Yunanistan’dan teçhizat ikmal ediyoruz.’

OELMEK’in Kıbrıslı Türklerin taksimi gündeme getirmek için 20 Aralık’ta Kıbrıs’ın stratejik noktalarını ele geçirmeye çalıştıkları iddiasına gelince… 21 Aralık sabahı meydana gelen olaydan sonra 23 Aralık’ta çatışmalar başladı. TMT çatışmaya neden olmak amacıyla inisiyatif almadı. Çünkü Türkler; Kıbrıslı Rumların her şeyi yapabilecek kadar dikkatsiz olduklarına inanıyorlardı.

Bilgi notlarından öğrendiğimiz kadarıyla Yunan İstihbarat Teşkilatı, Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’nin ilanından önce Kıbrıs’ta vardı. Makarios 26 Mayıs 1960’ta bölge başkanlarını topladı ve Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti’ni; daha resmen ilan edilmeden önce şikâyet etmek amacıyla EOKA’yı yeniden kurmaya çalıştı.

OELMEK’in ‘tarihi gerçekleri’nin 4’üncü maddesi olan; Kıbrıslı Türklerin bir plan dahilinde Kıbrıs Cumhuriyeti kurumlarından çekilmeleri de gerçeğin tamamı değil. Kimse onları cumhuriyet kurumlarında tutmaya çalışmadı. Aksine; korkuyla kaçmaya yönlendirdiler. Toplam 230 Kıbrıslı Türk –TMT savaşçısı değil, sıradan vatandaş- yok oldu. Bugün çukurlarda olanlar onlardır.1963-64 kayıplar listesine bir göz atıldığında polis karakollarında, cezaevinde, hastanede, kırsalda ve çeşitli yollarda kayboldukları görülür. Malları da aynı akıbete uğradı. BM’nin yaptığı ve Genel Sekreter’in (10 Eylül 1964 tarih, sayfa 5950, paragraf 180) raporunda da kaydedilen araştırmaya göre; 103 Kıbrıs Türk köyü veya karma köyde 527 ev yıkıldı, 2 bini yağmalandı. O zaman kimse protesto etmedi, karşı da çıkmadı…”


I do not wish to dispute the importance of this article, but the original source is the Haravgi newspaper. Almost everyone on this forum can read either Turkish or Greek, so I do not see that there is a need for an English translation, too.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:48 pm

halil wrote:
Piratis wrote:I don't think anybody would claim that during wars and conflicts crimes were committed only one way. This hardly happens in any war. The main question is: Who started the war and why, and whether the atrocities were planned.

The answer to this is that it is Turkey which started the war with the aim to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots from their homeland and in this way partition Cyprus as it was their plan since the 50s. All the atrocities committed against Cyprus were not the result of some soldiers going crazy, but a planned ethnic cleansing of 5 out of 6 Cypriots from north Cyprus.

Turkey tries to excuse their invasion claiming that it invaded Cyprus to "save the innocent TCs who were killed", but this is a big lie, because the truth is that in 1974 no TC was killed until after the invasion started.


Go and read the archives of Glafkos Cleridis how TC's got killed in 1968 while talks was going on also in 1970 , read how the people of the Gaziveran village people weren't go their gardens ,how the complaines were done to UN and also to ROC goverment .These all well documented in those reports .



What those things have to do with 1974? What you describe are the casualties of the inter-communal conflict, and we had 100s of casualties as well during that conflict.

Again, the important question (just like with the 1974 war) is who started the conflict and why. The answer is again the Turks. They started that conflict in 1958 when they collaborated with the British and attacked the Greek Cypriots.

So what is the point of showing to us only your casualties during the wars and conflicts? Do you deny your crimes against us and that we also had casualties?

The important thing here it is YOU who started those wars and conflicts that all those people died. How else did you imagine it? That you will start a war or conflict against us, and the only ones who would have casualties would be us? Didn't it pass your mind the time you decided to attack us, that in the wars you start against us you will have casualties as well?
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Postby denizaksulu » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:08 pm

halil wrote:
Oracle wrote:Halil ... would you edit your post to get rid of that non-essential garbage and just post a link instead.

You are making a post, not a thread!


thats what your brains works only . To hide the truth . Truths must be come out and those peoples who are responsible for these kind of the crimes must be brought to justice .The man was 12 years old at that time when he witness this criminal action and he tells how those 32 TC'S killed in Famagusta . report also says there is a lots of GC's are giving information in these days how the TC's are get murdered .

Also TC's are giving informations as well . These informationes are also helping to find missing persones at both sides .

Now , it must be time to get those guilty ones from both sides and bring them to front of the justice .


Halıl, please let us know when the murderer of Solomou wıll be trıed and punıshed.

Thank you!!
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Postby halil » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:17 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
halil wrote:
Oracle wrote:Halil ... would you edit your post to get rid of that non-essential garbage and just post a link instead.

You are making a post, not a thread!


thats what your brains works only . To hide the truth . Truths must be come out and those peoples who are responsible for these kind of the crimes must be brought to justice .The man was 12 years old at that time when he witness this criminal action and he tells how those 32 TC'S killed in Famagusta . report also says there is a lots of GC's are giving information in these days how the TC's are get murdered .

Also TC's are giving informations as well . These informationes are also helping to find missing persones at both sides .

Now , it must be time to get those guilty ones from both sides and bring them to front of the justice .


Halıl, please let us know when the murderer of Solomou wıll be trıed and punıshed.

Thank you!!


Deniz,
in here i am not eliminating anybody . İf i get i will let all of you to know it . Lets and see what Kutlay Erk application to human rights (ECHR) will bring out .
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Postby denizaksulu » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:20 pm

halil wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
halil wrote:
Oracle wrote:Halil ... would you edit your post to get rid of that non-essential garbage and just post a link instead.

You are making a post, not a thread!


thats what your brains works only . To hide the truth . Truths must be come out and those peoples who are responsible for these kind of the crimes must be brought to justice .The man was 12 years old at that time when he witness this criminal action and he tells how those 32 TC'S killed in Famagusta . report also says there is a lots of GC's are giving information in these days how the TC's are get murdered .

Also TC's are giving informations as well . These informationes are also helping to find missing persones at both sides .

Now , it must be time to get those guilty ones from both sides and bring them to front of the justice .


Halıl, please let us know when the murderer of Solomou wıll be trıed and punıshed.

Thank you!!


Deniz,
in here i am not eliminating anybody . İf i get i will let all of you to know it . Lets and see what Kutlay Erk application to human rights (ECHR) will bring out .



Thanks Halil.
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Postby halil » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:27 pm

Piratis wrote:
halil wrote:
Piratis wrote:I don't think anybody would claim that during wars and conflicts crimes were committed only one way. This hardly happens in any war. The main question is: Who started the war and why, and whether the atrocities were planned.

The answer to this is that it is Turkey which started the war with the aim to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots from their homeland and in this way partition Cyprus as it was their plan since the 50s. All the atrocities committed against Cyprus were not the result of some soldiers going crazy, but a planned ethnic cleansing of 5 out of 6 Cypriots from north Cyprus.

Turkey tries to excuse their invasion claiming that it invaded Cyprus to "save the innocent TCs who were killed", but this is a big lie, because the truth is that in 1974 no TC was killed until after the invasion started.


Go and read the archives of Glafkos Cleridis how TC's got killed in 1968 while talks was going on also in 1970 , read how the people of the Gaziveran village people weren't go their gardens ,how the complaines were done to UN and also to ROC goverment .These all well documented in those reports .



What those things have to do with 1974? What you describe are the casualties of the inter-communal conflict, and we had 100s of casualties as well during that conflict.

Again, the important question (just like with the 1974 war) is who started the conflict and why. The answer is again the Turks. They started that conflict in 1958 when they collaborated with the British and attacked the Greek Cypriots.

So what is the point of showing to us only your casualties during the wars and conflicts? Do you deny your crimes against us and that we also had casualties?

The important thing here it is YOU who started those wars and conflicts that all those people died. How else did you imagine it? That you will start a war or conflict against us, and the only ones who would have casualties would be us? Didn't it pass your mind the time you decided to attack us, that in the wars you start against us you will have casualties as well?


Read your own papers how the newspaper man proved with the documents who started the problems and also follow the UN documents .
Not the documents with your teachers union claims .We can see from where you get your lessones.It is very clear .

TC's were put the Full stopped after the declaration of the ROC .

Again i recomend you to read Glafkos documents and see how well the talks were going well between Denktash and Glafkos .... take your time and read....how they were exchanging proposals between each other....

http://www.glafkosclerides.com.cy/Archives.aspx
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Postby CBBB » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:31 pm

Anybody got a link to the Haravgi article?
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Postby kurupetos » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:35 pm

There is a fundamental difference, which is conveniently ignored by Turks/TCs, between the murders in cold blood of civilians/POWs. The GCs were killed by the Turkish Army which represents the official RoT where the TCs were killed by illegal paramilitary organizations (Sampson, etc.) (The latter also killed many GCs as you know). Therefore don't blame the RoC and the vast majority of GCs for these murders. :wink:
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Postby denizaksulu » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:38 pm

halil wrote:
Piratis wrote:
halil wrote:
Piratis wrote:I don't think anybody would claim that during wars and conflicts crimes were committed only one way. This hardly happens in any war. The main question is: Who started the war and why, and whether the atrocities were planned.

The answer to this is that it is Turkey which started the war with the aim to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots from their homeland and in this way partition Cyprus as it was their plan since the 50s. All the atrocities committed against Cyprus were not the result of some soldiers going crazy, but a planned ethnic cleansing of 5 out of 6 Cypriots from north Cyprus.

Turkey tries to excuse their invasion claiming that it invaded Cyprus to "save the innocent TCs who were killed", but this is a big lie, because the truth is that in 1974 no TC was killed until after the invasion started.


Go and read the archives of Glafkos Cleridis how TC's got killed in 1968 while talks was going on also in 1970 , read how the people of the Gaziveran village people weren't go their gardens ,how the complaines were done to UN and also to ROC goverment .These all well documented in those reports .



What those things have to do with 1974? What you describe are the casualties of the inter-communal conflict, and we had 100s of casualties as well during that conflict.

Again, the important question (just like with the 1974 war) is who started the conflict and why. The answer is again the Turks. They started that conflict in 1958 when they collaborated with the British and attacked the Greek Cypriots.

So what is the point of showing to us only your casualties during the wars and conflicts? Do you deny your crimes against us and that we also had casualties?

The important thing here it is YOU who started those wars and conflicts that all those people died. How else did you imagine it? That you will start a war or conflict against us, and the only ones who would have casualties would be us? Didn't it pass your mind the time you decided to attack us, that in the wars you start against us you will have casualties as well?


Read your own papers how the newspaper man proved with the documents who started the problems and also follow the UN documents .
Not the documents with your teachers union claims .We can see from where you get your lessones.It is very clear .

TC's were put the Full stopped after the declaration of the ROC .

Again i recomend you to read Glafkos documents and see how well the talks were going well between Denktash and Glafkos .... take your time and read....how they were exchanging proposals between each other....

http://www.glafkosclerides.com.cy/Archives.aspx



Halil.

You are wasting your time with Piratis. He is a 'Robot'. He only reads what he is programmed to read and nothing else.
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Postby halil » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:39 pm

CBBB wrote:Anybody got a link to the Haravgi article?


CBBB,
thats why my friend i was asked it from TİM,
some how i can not understand our friend TİM as well , when the things are suits him he does translation from papers but these papers are only for ...... satisfaction .

In here we are talking about some truths and truths must be come out by judying both sides .
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