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What is “Political Equality”?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:19 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
insan wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Oracle wrote:
utu wrote:
Oracle wrote:Do you think it is fair that we are being asked to twist so many facets of democracy to suit the over-greedy Turks amongst us?


Well, that is the question, Oracle. FYI there are examples in other countires where there has been some over-representation of minorities, but generally speaking, these are of native population groups.


So you accept the GCs are the natives, and we should be expecting over and above the normal rights, based on what other natives receive ... yet here we are, being forced to give more rights instead, to invaders ... :?


And the Turks themselves refuse to give any additional rights to the native Kurds who were in Anatolia well before the arrival of the Mongolian nomads.


So how the majority of Turkish parliament conists of Kurdish origin Turkish citizens. How did one of the Kurdish origin Turkish citizen, namely Turgut Ozal became Prime Minister and President of Turkey. How did some of the Kurdish origin Turkish citizens have high ranks in Turkish army? How did many Kurdish origin horde leaders became huge and wealthy tribe owners in Anatolia?


The Kurds in Turkey do not have any additional rights or political representation, but are represented as an EQUAL (mostly) Turkish citizen when they are not being killed by the Turkish Army.


Do they have any community rights as set out in an international agreement signed by the GCs like the TCs? with Turkey???


This community agreement was imposed and inflicted upon Cypriots by a foreign power as punishment for the 55-59 revolution. It was not accepted democratically by the people and the results of the Zurich Agreements have caused many GCs and TCs to be killed, and that is exactly what will happen again if the rights of each individual are not respected as EQUAL citizens.


Forget all that crap, you can cry all you want ...is it binding?


It ceased being binding when you walked out.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:20 am

So does that mean you have no constitiution??? So the "RoC" is null and void?
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:23 am

Viewpoint wrote:So does that mean you have no constitiution??? So the "RoC" is null and void?


We have a constitution but without your presence.

And this very constitution has caused the death of some 12,000 people.

Heaven knows how many people the Annan Plan would have killed if it was implemented.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:24 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
utu wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
utu wrote:Sounds like some folk here subscribe to the statement in George Orwell's "Animal Farm", in that it was said that "some people are more equal than others"...
The fact remains that "political equality" has two different definitions either side of the Green Line. Unless and until a common definition is agreed upon, the argument and accusations (not to mention the snide comments and abuse) are going to continue.

What the hell are you talking about? Political definitions such as these are the same and well known worldwide.

I'm surprised that you of all people would ask a question like that, GR. For the Turkish Cypriots, "political equality", means that their community is on an equal par with the Greek Cypriot community, regardless of numbers. For the Greek Cypriots, "political equality" is on a person-to-person basis, which - as the TC's point out - means that the numberican majority of the GC's over the TC's means that they could be swamped. For you to overlook this is rather surprising...

I know very well what they're asking for but if I'm to have any respect for their request they'll have to start using the right terminology FIRST so which of the fine Turkish Cypriots on this forum is prepared to post a more apt phrase (not explanation) of what they’re asking?


Partnership.

That can only be used in a business venture so how much capital you got? :lol:

Seriously, give me something if you can, that encapsulates this political request because it’s all in the delivery VP, and when we start using the CORRECT terminologies I’m sure we’ll start to feel a little embarrassed don’t you think?


Equality of the 2 major communities,
Equality of the 2 states,
50% 50% power sharing,
2 equal partners,

None of your above suggestions correctly reflect what you're truly asking for which is none other than a… Ethnic Minority Electorate Advantage !!!
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:27 am

Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
utu wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
utu wrote:Sounds like some folk here subscribe to the statement in George Orwell's "Animal Farm", in that it was said that "some people are more equal than others"...
The fact remains that "political equality" has two different definitions either side of the Green Line. Unless and until a common definition is agreed upon, the argument and accusations (not to mention the snide comments and abuse) are going to continue.

What the hell are you talking about? Political definitions such as these are the same and well known worldwide.

I'm surprised that you of all people would ask a question like that, GR. For the Turkish Cypriots, "political equality", means that their community is on an equal par with the Greek Cypriot community, regardless of numbers. For the Greek Cypriots, "political equality" is on a person-to-person basis, which - as the TC's point out - means that the numberican majority of the GC's over the TC's means that they could be swamped. For you to overlook this is rather surprising...

I know very well what they're asking for but if I'm to have any respect for their request they'll have to start using the right terminology FIRST so which of the fine Turkish Cypriots on this forum is prepared to post a more apt phrase (not explanation) of what they’re asking?


Partnership.

That can only be used in a business venture so how much capital you got? :lol:

Seriously, give me something if you can, that encapsulates this political request because it’s all in the delivery VP, and when we start using the CORRECT terminologies I’m sure we’ll start to feel a little embarrassed don’t you think?


Equality of the 2 major communities,
Equality of the 2 states,
50% 50% power sharing,
2 equal partners,

None of your above suggestions correctly reflect what you're truly asking for which is none other than a… Ethnic Minority Electorate Advantage !!!


Equality of the 2 major communities would be the best clarification so as not to allow one to dominate control discriminate or exploit the other.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:34 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:Equality of the 2 major communities,
Equality of the 2 states,
50% 50% power sharing,
2 equal partners,

None of your above suggestions correctly reflect what you're truly asking for which is none other than a… Ethnic Minority Electorate Advantage !!!

Equality of the 2 major communities would be the best clarification so as not to allow one to dominate control discriminate or exploit the other.

You are NOT a major community by any measure so climb off your high horse!

"Major" is the opposite of "Minor" just as "Majority is the opposite of "Minority"! :roll:

You are an ETHNIC MINORITY seeking an advantage over the INDIGENOUS MAJORITY!

And of course… one cannot possibly have an ADVANTAGE unless the other has a DISADVANTAGE amen?

See how things reveal themselves better when we start using the CORRECT terminologies?
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Postby Paphitis » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:39 am

GR Wrote:
And of course… one cannot possibly have an ADVANTAGE unless the other has a DISADVANTAGE amen?


And I wonder what this fact alone would do for the rise of nationalism, because no matter what, you will find that there will always be those that refuse to be disadvantaged, and they WILL take matters into their own hands.
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Postby Get Real! » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:50 am

Paphitis wrote:GR Wrote:
And of course… one cannot possibly have an ADVANTAGE unless the other has a DISADVANTAGE amen?


And I wonder what this fact alone would do for the rise of nationalism, because no matter what, you will find that there will always be those that refuse to be disadvantaged, and they WILL take matters into their own hands.

Deja vu! They stupidly assume that this time Cyprus will be forced to cop it because of Turkey, totally oblivious to THEIR fragility! :roll:
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Postby insan » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:20 am

“The Nature of Man and the Origin of Government”

Why does society require government? “The answer will be found in the fact . . . that, while man is created for the social state and is accordingly so formed as to feel what affects others as well as what affects himself, he is, at the same time, so constituted as to feel more intensely what affects him directly than what affects him indirectly through others . . . I intentionally avoid the expression ‘selfish feelings’ . . . because, as commonly used, it implies an unusual excess of the individual over the social feelings in the person to whom it is applied . . .”



The powers of government, however, “must be administered by men in whom, like others, the individual are stronger than the social feelings.” Consequently, the danger exists that they will convert government powers “into instruments to oppress the rest of the community. That by which this is prevented . . . is what is meant by constitution, in its most comprehensive sense, when applied to government”



“Constitution is the contrivance of man, while government is of divine ordination. Man is left to perfect what the wisdom of the Infinite ordained as necessary to preserve the race” (271). An echo here of the distinction in Aquinas between natural law and human law.



Thus, the key question: “How can those who are invested with the powers of government be prevented from employing them as the means of aggrandizing themselves instead of using them to protect and preserve society?”



Constitutional Design -- Concurrent Versus Numerical Majorities
g.) The ruled must possess the means “of resisting successfully this tendency on the part of rulers to oppression and abuse. Power can only be resisted by power -- and tendency by tendency. Those who exercise power and those subject to its exercise -- stand in antagonistic relations to each other” (272).


h.) “Such an organism, then, as will furnish the means by which resistance may be systematically and peaceably made on the part of the ruled to oppression and abuse of power on the part of the rulers is the first and indispensable step toward forming a constitutional government” (272).


I.) The “right of suffrage”, ensuring “the responsibility of the rulers to the ruled . . . is the indispensable and primary principle in the foundation of a constitutional government” (272).

“The sum total . . . of its effects, when most successful, is to make those elected the true and faithful representatives of those who elected them . . .[,] but in doing so, it only changes the seat of authority without counteracting, in the least, the tendency of government to oppression and abuse of its powers” (272).




The numerical versus the concurrent majority.

Numerical majority: When “one regards numbers only and considers the whole community as a unit having but one common interest throughout, and collects the sense of the greater number of the whole as that of the community” (276). In effect, the greater part of the people is taken as the whole, “and the government of the greater part as the government of the whole” (277). This “leads to the conclusion that . . . nothing more is necessary than the right of suffrage and the allotment to each division of the community a representation in the government in proportion to numbers” (277).

Those who “fall into these errors regard the restrictions which organism [concurrent majority] imposes on the will of the numerical majority as restrictions on the will of the people and, therefore, as not only useless but wrongful and mischievous” (278).

Concurrent majority: “It is this mutual negative among its various conflicting interests which invests each with the power of protecting itself, and places the rights and safety of each where only they can be securely placed, under its own guardianship. . . . It is, indeed, the negative power which makes the constitution, and the positive which makes the government” (278).

Thus while the principle of numerical majority divides the community in two, that of the concurrent majority “tends to unite the most opposite and conflicting interests and to blend the whole in one common attachment to the country” (279-280). Why? Because “Each sees and feels that it can best promote its own prosperity by conciliating the good will and promoting the prosperity of the others” (280).




My simple conclusion:

Majority of TC community + majority of GC community = Concurrent Majority of Cypriots

50/50 reperesentation in upper house neither harms the interests of each community, respectively nor creates a tyranny of numerical majority based on single ethnicity.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:06 am

My simple conclusion:

Majority of TC community + majority of GC community = Concurrent Majority of Cypriots

50/50 reperesentation in upper house neither harms the interests of each community, respectively nor creates a tyranny of numerical majority based on single ethnicity.


If that is the case then why doesn't this division happen among all ethnicities in all countries? Why doesn't Turkey do it with her Greek or Kurdish communities? Why do you want this only for your community, and not the other communities in Cyprus as well?
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