Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Talat Pointing out that false reports have emerged in the Greek Cypriot press claiming that the European Court of Human Rights has recognized rulings of Greek Cypriot courts concerning property cases, the President said any such interference from the international community at a time when the talks were continuing was absolutely unacceptable.

If Talat is concerned, then everyone else should also.

Oh, and by the way Mr Talat, the world does not revolve around the Cyprus problem to wait with the courts opinion from becoming law if and when it is ready. The International Community is much bigger than us, therefore we comply with their ruling on the courts legal opinion and they will tell you what you can do with your "absolutely unacceptable" comments.!

[insan]

UK Government warns its citizens over Greek Cypriot property
16.01.2009

The British Foreign and Commonwealth Office has announced that it has amended its travel advice for UK citizens visiting the island of Cyprus following the recent statement released by Juliane Kokott, the German Advocate General at the Court of Justice of the European Communities (EJC), regarding the purchase of property in the north. The recent alterations to the advice is in relation to the purchase of land or property that pre-1974 belonged to Greek Cypriots. The Advocate General’s statement followed the Oram’s case being transferred to the EJC and, should it be accepted by the Court, will affect all foreigners who have homes or investments on ‘Greek Cypriot property’ in northern Cyprus.
The Orams case has turned up at the EJC following the case taken out by Greek Cypriot Meletis Apostoledes against the British couple, Linda and David Orams, in Nicosia District Court when he stated that they had built a villa on land in Lapithos (Lapta) in Kyrenia that belonged to him before 1974. Kokott stated that it was her opinion that “the court’s decision in Greek Cyprus should be recognised and implemented in other European Union (EU) member countries although it concerns land in North Cyprus.”

Referring to ECHR

The Greek Cypriot Politis newspaper wrote that the section on ‘Purchasing Property’ in the ‘Cyprus travel advice’, given by the British Foreign Office, emphasises that “The European Court of Human Rights has ruled in a number of cases that owners of property in northern Cyprus prior to 1974 should continue to be regarded as the legal owners of that property.” Advocate General Kokott’s opinion that came out on behalf of the Greek Cypriots has worried northern Cypriot citizens. President Mehmet Ali Talat stated that the report was important and opposition parties warned that the impending court’s decision would have a devastating effect.

Potential Danger

Kokott’s report is advisory and is non binding, but it has been stated that court makes its decisions through such reports. If the Court of Justice leans towards the prosecutor’s opinion then all foreigners who have houses or investments on Greek Cypriot land in northern Cyprus will be affected. Greek Cypriots can even seize their estate and bank accounts in Europe. It has been anticipated that approximately 10 thousand foreigners who own real estate in North Cyprus can sell their estates with the concern that their properties could be seized.

http://www.observercyprus.com/observer/ ... px?id=3417

Kikapu, everything is not how it has been seen or sounded. UK government officially warns for this and that for any purpose, on the other hand unofficially whispers in the ears something else. Every wise man always keeps in mind the possibilities and risks and acts accordingly. I am strongly underlining my words abt this issue. In normal conditions only Mafia type illegal organizations can buy and sell stolen land but under TRNC's condition by taking into consideration that 50-60 thousands of TC refugees r deprived from selling or buying their own land bcz of the unresolved Cyprus problem; selling and buying GC property is sensible and most probably the circumstances will be taken into consideration if ever a comprehensive and lasting solution will be reached in the future. These r all negotiated in the past 35 years and still the leadership of 2 communities have been negotiating it. If it is certain that after an agreed solution only an agreed number of GC refugees will be allowed to return their properties, what's the point of depriving TC refugees to sell and buy GC properties to anyone they wish, under the current TRNC laws. What if the Cyprus problem still couldn't have been resolved in next 25 years? In my opinion, GC administration should do the same with the TC land in South, in colloboration with TC administration by asking the demands of entitled parties whether they want to exchange properties, sell, buy, compensate, wait for the solution and return to their homes etc. However it seems to me that the even the properties issue being tried to be used for political point scoring while most of the refugees suffering from deprivation of the right of their properties.

Kikapu, my opinions don't even worth for replying?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, everything is not how it has been seen or sounded. UK government officially warns for this and that for any purpose, on the other hand unofficially whispers in the ears something else. Every wise man always keeps in mind the possibilities and risks and acts accordingly. I am strongly underlining my words abt this issue. In normal conditions only Mafia type illegal organizations can buy and sell stolen land but under TRNC's condition by taking into consideration that 50-60 thousands of TC refugees r deprived from selling or buying their own land bcz of the unresolved Cyprus problem; selling and buying GC property is sensible and most probably the circumstances will be taken into consideration if ever a comprehensive and lasting solution will be reached in the future. These r all negotiated in the past 35 years and still the leadership of 2 communities have been negotiating it. If it is certain that after an agreed solution only an agreed number of GC refugees will be allowed to return their properties, what's the point of depriving TC refugees to sell and buy GC properties to anyone they wish, under the current TRNC laws. What if the Cyprus problem still couldn't have been resolved in next 25 years? In my opinion, GC administration should do the same with the TC land in South, in colloboration with TC administration by asking the demands of entitled parties whether they want to exchange properties, sell, buy, compensate, wait for the solution and return to their homes etc. However it seems to me that the even the properties issue being tried to be used for political point scoring while most of the refugees suffering from deprivation of the right of their properties.

Kikapu, my opinions don't even worth for replying?

Sorry, I was tied up with zan for a while. Besides, I was waiting until your English to improved a little bit more so that you will understand what I'm saying ..........................(almost a private joke people, so relax!)

So tell me Insan, are you one of these people who bought GC properties in the north, and why shouldn't you, since you have after all explained as to why these people ( TC's) should sell and buy property that does not belong to them. Yes, there is a unsolved Cyprus Problem, and for the longest time, it was us who did not want it to be solved, because as I explained to, Zan, Denktash did not need to solve anything, because the 1974 events solved everything for the TC's and it was only a matter of time before the north become recognised and there would be no looking back there on, so lets make all the GC land as ours because Turkey will defend us no matter how many International and Moral laws we broke. But that dream of Denktash did not materialize, so hindsight giving title deeds of GC's properties to TC's and settlers and selling to others was not a good idea. No one denies or begrudges the TC's occupying the GC's homes while everyone waits for a solution, because TC's homes are also occupied in the south. It is not their fault because they have been displaced by others and we are not talking about these poor people.

Whether there will only be an agreed number of GC's will return to the north is neither here or there in selling off their properties. Since AP is no longer on the table and since Cyprus is in the EU, there won't be any limits as to how many GC's will want to return to their properties. You can't stop them. That's the reason why the TC's will need to give much more land back to the GC's than the AP allowed for, and if you have been following the thread on my "BBF" proposal, which you said you will contribute to and so far have not, talks about the reasons of giving these land back.

The fact that the "trnc" had absolutely no right to give the GC's lands away, does not absolve those who bought and sold them from responsibility of being liable in dealing with stolen property. They cannot claim to have been ignorant and stupid at the same time. If one breaks the law, you cannot use ignorance as a defence. Of course, the real culprits here are the leaders and law makers in the "trnc". It was they who created the "Corrupted Society" in the north and forced decent TC's to live in it. They have caused all the problems, so they should lead the way in solving them. All this reflects very badly on the TC's, so the sooner we can clear up this mess and get back to being equal citizens in a Democratic Cyprus as a EU member, the better for all of us.

[insan]

Kikapu, everything is not how it has been seen or sounded. UK government officially warns for this and that for any purpose, on the other hand unofficially whispers in the ears something else. Every wise man always keeps in mind the possibilities and risks and acts accordingly. I am strongly underlining my words abt this issue. In normal conditions only Mafia type illegal organizations can buy and sell stolen land but under TRNC's condition by taking into consideration that 50-60 thousands of TC refugees r deprived from selling or buying their own land bcz of the unresolved Cyprus problem; selling and buying GC property is sensible and most probably the circumstances will be taken into consideration if ever a comprehensive and lasting solution will be reached in the future. These r all negotiated in the past 35 years and still the leadership of 2 communities have been negotiating it. If it is certain that after an agreed solution only an agreed number of GC refugees will be allowed to return their properties, what's the point of depriving TC refugees to sell and buy GC properties to anyone they wish, under the current TRNC laws. What if the Cyprus problem still couldn't have been resolved in next 25 years? In my opinion, GC administration should do the same with the TC land in South, in colloboration with TC administration by asking the demands of entitled parties whether they want to exchange properties, sell, buy, compensate, wait for the solution and return to their homes etc. However it seems to me that the even the properties issue being tried to be used for political point scoring while most of the refugees suffering from deprivation of the right of their properties.

Kikapu, my opinions don't even worth for replying?

Sorry, I was tied up with zan for a while. Besides, I was waiting until your English to improved a little bit more so that you will understand what I'm saying ..........................(almost a private joke people, so relax!)

So tell me Insan, are you one of these people who bought GC properties in the north, and why shouldn't you, since you have after all explained as to why these people ( TC's) should sell and buy property that does not belong to them. Yes, there is a unsolved Cyprus Problem, and for the longest time, it was us who did not want it to be solved, because as I explained to, Zan, Denktash did not need to solve anything, because the 1974 events solved everything for the TC's and it was only a matter of time before the north become recognised and there would be no looking back there on, so lets make all the GC land as ours because Turkey will defend us no matter how many International and Moral laws we broke. But that dream of Denktash did not materialize, so hindsight giving title deeds of GC's properties to TC's and settlers and selling to others was not a good idea. No one denies or begrudges the TC's occupying the GC's homes while everyone waits for a solution, because TC's homes are also occupied in the south. It is not their fault because they have been displaced by others and we are not talking about these poor people.

Whether there will only be an agreed number of GC's will return to the north is neither here or there in selling off their properties. Since AP is no longer on the table and since Cyprus is in the EU, there won't be any limits as to how many GC's will want to return to their properties. You can't stop them. That's the reason why the TC's will need to give much more land back to the GC's than the AP allowed for, and if you have been following the thread on my "BBF" proposal, which you said you will contribute to and so far have not, talks about the reasons of giving these land back.

The fact that the "trnc" had absolutely no right to give the GC's lands away, does not absolve those who bought and sold them from responsibility of being liable in dealing with stolen property. They cannot claim to have been ignorant and stupid at the same time. If one breaks the law, you cannot use ignorance as a defence. Of course, the real culprits here are the leaders and law makers in the "trnc". It was they who created the "Corrupted Society" in the north and forced decent TC's to live in it. They have caused all the problems, so they should lead the way in solving them. All this reflects very badly on the TC's, so the sooner we can clear up this mess and get back to being equal citizens in a Democratic Cyprus as a EU member, the better for all of us.

I will reply to ur post with just one question and if u give a satisfying answer we can continue discussing the issue. Since the GC leadership have never accepted the political equlaity of TC community at community basis why Denktash or any other TC leader should accept a solution based on majority rules, TCs r minority like all other minorities of Cyprus?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, everything is not how it has been seen or sounded. UK government officially warns for this and that for any purpose, on the other hand unofficially whispers in the ears something else. Every wise man always keeps in mind the possibilities and risks and acts accordingly. I am strongly underlining my words abt this issue. In normal conditions only Mafia type illegal organizations can buy and sell stolen land but under TRNC's condition by taking into consideration that 50-60 thousands of TC refugees r deprived from selling or buying their own land bcz of the unresolved Cyprus problem; selling and buying GC property is sensible and most probably the circumstances will be taken into consideration if ever a comprehensive and lasting solution will be reached in the future. These r all negotiated in the past 35 years and still the leadership of 2 communities have been negotiating it. If it is certain that after an agreed solution only an agreed number of GC refugees will be allowed to return their properties, what's the point of depriving TC refugees to sell and buy GC properties to anyone they wish, under the current TRNC laws. What if the Cyprus problem still couldn't have been resolved in next 25 years? In my opinion, GC administration should do the same with the TC land in South, in colloboration with TC administration by asking the demands of entitled parties whether they want to exchange properties, sell, buy, compensate, wait for the solution and return to their homes etc. However it seems to me that the even the properties issue being tried to be used for political point scoring while most of the refugees suffering from deprivation of the right of their properties.

Kikapu, my opinions don't even worth for replying?

Sorry, I was tied up with zan for a while. Besides, I was waiting until your English to improved a little bit more so that you will understand what I'm saying ..........................(almost a private joke people, so relax!)

So tell me Insan, are you one of these people who bought GC properties in the north, and why shouldn't you, since you have after all explained as to why these people ( TC's) should sell and buy property that does not belong to them. Yes, there is a unsolved Cyprus Problem, and for the longest time, it was us who did not want it to be solved, because as I explained to, Zan, Denktash did not need to solve anything, because the 1974 events solved everything for the TC's and it was only a matter of time before the north become recognised and there would be no looking back there on, so lets make all the GC land as ours because Turkey will defend us no matter how many International and Moral laws we broke. But that dream of Denktash did not materialize, so hindsight giving title deeds of GC's properties to TC's and settlers and selling to others was not a good idea. No one denies or begrudges the TC's occupying the GC's homes while everyone waits for a solution, because TC's homes are also occupied in the south. It is not their fault because they have been displaced by others and we are not talking about these poor people.

Whether there will only be an agreed number of GC's will return to the north is neither here or there in selling off their properties. Since AP is no longer on the table and since Cyprus is in the EU, there won't be any limits as to how many GC's will want to return to their properties. You can't stop them. That's the reason why the TC's will need to give much more land back to the GC's than the AP allowed for, and if you have been following the thread on my "BBF" proposal, which you said you will contribute to and so far have not, talks about the reasons of giving these land back.

The fact that the "trnc" had absolutely no right to give the GC's lands away, does not absolve those who bought and sold them from responsibility of being liable in dealing with stolen property. They cannot claim to have been ignorant and stupid at the same time. If one breaks the law, you cannot use ignorance as a defence. Of course, the real culprits here are the leaders and law makers in the "trnc". It was they who created the "Corrupted Society" in the north and forced decent TC's to live in it. They have caused all the problems, so they should lead the way in solving them. All this reflects very badly on the TC's, so the sooner we can clear up this mess and get back to being equal citizens in a Democratic Cyprus as a EU member, the better for all of us.

I will reply to ur post with just one question and if u give a satisfying answer we can continue discussing the issue. Since the GC leadership have never accepted the political equlaity of TC community at community basis why Denktash or any other TC leader should accept a solution based on majority rules, TCs r minority like all other minorities of Cyprus?

No Insan, I do not need to pass some kind of a litmus test to your question whether I would qualify for you to answer my post put to you. It was you who was impatient for me to answer your post, and not only you did not answer it, you now want to pose a question for me to answer to see whether I deserve a response from you or not. If you don't want to answer my posts, then don't, but don't try to send me on a wild goose chase just to get you to respond to my posts, which you have not done to couple of others made to you from me, so I can't say I'm surprised that you do not want to tackle this one either.!

[CBBB]

From today's Cyprus Mail so the local Brits can read about it.

ECJ endorses 2004 Orams ruling
By Alexia Saoulli

THE EUROPEAN Court of Justice (ECJ) has endorsed a Nicosia court ruling on the Orams property dispute in which the legal claims by refugee Greek Cypriot property owners were upheld.

ECJ Advocate-general Juliane Kokott has advised the ECJ that the Nicosia court “has jurisdiction in relation to the property dispute, irrespective of the fact that the Republic of Cyprus does not exercise effective control over northern Cyprus”.

Her opinion is not legally binding, but in almost all cases European judges follow her recommendations.

“The question is not whether or not the properties in the illegally occupied north of Cyprus still belong to the refugees who fled after the Turkish invasion of 1974, they clearly do,” said Theo Theodorou, spokesman for Lobby for Cyprus.

“The real question is why Turkey continues to behave like some delusional Walter Mitty figure and pretends to the outside world that it can do as it seems fit with the property that is stolen. Every court that has ever looked at the issue has come to the same conclusion.

“Greek Cypriot property in the occupied north of Cyprus still belongs to those Greek Cypriots and not to any person that Turkey sells it to.”

Theodorou was citing four recent decisions of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) as well as Kokott’s studied opinion.

Theodorou explained that following a lower court’s decision that British couple Linda and David Orams had the right to own and build on property belonging to a Greek Cypriot refugee and following the owner’s appeal of the decision, the Court of Appeal of England and Wales had requested a legal opinion from the ECJ.

In 2004, a Nicosia District Court ruled that the Orams demolish their house, return the land, and pay “rent” for the time they lived there.

Theodorou said Kokott was asked to interpret the European Union’s Brussels Regulation in this case which deals with the recognition and enforcement of judgements issued by courts in other EU-member states.

He said the fact that the Nicosia court’s “judgement cannot actually be enforced at this time does not, in the Advocate-general’s opinion, relieve courts in other member states from the obligation to recognise and enforce the judgement”.

“Yet another court has pronounced on the rights of the refugees, and this should be another warning to those who have bought or are seeking to buy property in the north of Cyprus that they will lose their money and could be parties to criminal acts,” Theodorou said.

“Turkey obviously plans to concrete over Greek Cypriot properties in the occupied area and sell anything that is built on this land to non-Cypriot buyers.

“However, those buyers must take note of all of these legal developments and be prepared to face the inevitable consequences of their illegal purchase, which could include losing their own properties in their home country.”

Theodorou advised anyone thinking of buying property in the north of Cyprus to contact the lobby gorup on +44 208 888 2556 for more information about these and earlier decisions by the ECHR all of which have been in favour of the absentee owners.



Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2009

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 1&cat_id=1

[Viewpoint]

So what does it change? If Brits have no assets in the UK theres nothing anyone can do.

[Get Real!]

So what does it change? If Brits have no assets in the UK theres nothing anyone can do.

You mean assets in the EU not just the UK but anyway, I'd wager that once it's legally established that somebody owes someone else the equivalent of a house/land, debt recovery can take many nasty forms and shapes including but not limited to deductions from one's salary/wages/pensions, etc...

[Get Real!]

No need to feel sorry for them though because they willingly became part of the Cyprus problem so… tough titties to them!

[Viewpoint]

So what does it change? If Brits have no assets in the UK theres nothing anyone can do.

You mean assets in the EU not just the UK but anyway, I'd wager that once it's legally established that somebody owes someone else the equivalent of a house/land, debt recovery can take many nasty forms and shapes including but not limited to deductions from one's salary/wages/pensions, etc...

UK EU MARS, if these people have no assets in their names and reside in the TRNC with their money in one of the local banks, what difference does this judgement make. You cannot touch anyones pension, its not legal to do so.