Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

But the last whole hearted effort and the one that remains in every ones minds is the rejection of the AP by you guys.

Its all a matter of how you market and spin it.

[Kikapu]

Well in all fairness the population balance is more important than land size think of it in reverse because even if 200.000 were once again forced to move into a certain percentage of land not all of them would go therefore the 200.000 would be a smaller number making it easier for GC to out populated TCs and grab that vital one seat in the upper house that would give GC all the power they wanted. You must be able to see the risk which could leave us at the mercy of GC which is our nightmare, you are leading us into dangerous ground.

Forgive me VP, but I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here. If 200,000 displaced GC's returned to their properties that will be part of the GC state, how could they then over run the TC state.? Something tells me that you are running out of arguments here just to justify in not giving any land back, in which case, it is you who risk the GC's overrunning the TC's in the TC state, and regardless of my power share plan, this is something you are going to deal with regardless, if and when peace is reached, because you will not be able to restrict any one's movement as the Annan Plan did. The only way to solve this problem is by giving the GC's their land back. Those Racist provisions will no longer apply. Even if partition was agreed on, you are back to square one, which means giving most of the land back. It is one of those equations, that no matter what method you use to make the calculations with, the answer always comes to be the same thing. I'm just giving you the most Democratic way in reaching that number. You may choose to do it in a undemocratic way, but the results are going to be the same.

The 3 examples I gave and your counter arguements are valid only if the 5 5 balance in the upper house is guaranteed otherwise there is a great risk that GCs will use their numerical advantage against the north state, they have show in the past they are masters and given the power I am 100% certain they will. Why leave the door wide open when er have the opportunity to slam it shot once and for all. If they do not intend to exploit it then why not have the 5 5 balance fixed forever. Without this guarantee I would vote against such a power sharing plan solely on this issue.

Those three examples were the worst kind to show how the TC's would suffer if they were to lose any of the seats to the Upper House, which will not happen anyway in the explanations I already gave, plus I still have additional ways to prevent that from happening, but if your mind is already made up not to accept it, it's no point telling them now. I really do not think that the GC's will move 200,000 GC's into a TC state just to stick one to Turkey or the Turks, specially if Turkey makes it into the EU as Erdogan is trying with all his heart. You went from liking the plan by claiming it will be the GC's that I would need to sell this plan to, to rejecting it yourself, only after you have realised that half of the present "trnc" today, will need to be given back, or else expect 200,000 GC's in the TC state.

What amazes me is, that the TC state is where all the TC's will live and all the laws that govern their state will be made with the state legislators and you have no concerns that the 200,000 GC's will take power away from the TC's locally, but you are concerned about "losing" a seat in the upper house. It makes absolutely no sense at all, because local power is where is all at. You got your priorities upside down I'm afraid. 99% of the laws the TC's will live by, will be made in the TC state and not in the Federal Upper or Lower Houses, so I'm afraid, your concerns of losing power to the GC's is not where your concerns are, but rather wanting in keeping their land. I'll be happy to explain additional ways to maintain the TC numbers higher in the TC state if you are really serious about living in a Democratic Cyprus and not something that is a "Muslim Democracy" practiced in Undemocratic Countries that does not have a place in the EU, and neither the EU will accept it! When you think of your children's future, think of Democracy for them, or else their future will be in the hands of those who can best dominate them in an undemocratic society. You control their future, so give them the tools they need to live in a democratic society where they have a say so in their future, rather than others having contol of their future.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

Forgive me VP, but I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here. If 200,000 displaced GC's returned to their properties that will be part of the GC state, how could they then over run the TC state.? Something tells me that you are running out of arguments here just to justify in not giving any land back, in which case, it is you who risk the GC's overrunning the TC's in the TC state, and regardless of my power share plan, this is something you are going to deal with regardless, if and when peace is reached, because you will not be able to restrict any one's movement as the Annan Plan did. The only way to solve this problem is by giving the GC's their land back. Those Racist provisions will no longer apply. Even if partition was agreed on, you are back to square one, which means giving most of the land back. It is one of those equations, that no matter what method you use to make the calculations with, the answer always comes to be the same thing. I'm just giving you the most Democratic way in reaching that number. You may choose to do it in a undemocratic way, but the results are going to be the same.

It is not very difficult to understand but you seem to be blocking out what is obvious even if the North state is reduced to 25% or 29% as in the AP if desired the GCs can use their numerical advantage to gain the balance in their favor and get what they want total control over the whole island leaving us just another minority exposed to a hostile revenge seeking majority. Is this a possiblity? if the answer is yes then how do you expect us to take such a leap of faith.

Those three examples were the worst kind to show how the TC's would suffer if they were to lose any of the seats to the Upper House, which will not happen anyway in the explanations I already gave, plus I still have additional ways to prevent that from happening, but if your mind is already made up not to accept it, it's no point telling them now. I really do not think that the GC's will move 200,000 GC's into a TC state just to stick one to Turkey or the Turks, specially if Turkey makes it into the EU as Erdogan is trying with all his heart. You went from liking the plan by claiming it will be the GC's that I would need to sell this plan to, to rejecting it yourself, only after you have realised that half of the present "trnc" today, will need to be given back, or else expect 200,000 GC's in the TC state.

Lets hear your other ways to ensure we guarantee the 5 5 balance, you appear to now understand the importance so thats why you have generated alternatives to address this issue, thank you for showing that you are trying to create a system whereby the TCs are safeguarded against a hostile majority that could exploit their power to the detrement of TCs not allowing them an effective say in the running of a united Cyprus. I still dont feel that the GCs would accept sharing the upper house 5 5 if they do not have the open door you have allowed them to take control of the whole island.

What amazes me is, that the TC state is where all the TC's will live and all the laws that govern their state will be made with the state legislators and you have no concerns that the 200,000 GC's will take power away from the TC's locally, but you are concerned about "losing" a seat in the upper house. It makes absolutely no sense at all, because local power is where is all at. You got your priorities upside down I'm afraid. 99% of the laws the TC's will live by, will be made in the TC state and not in the Federal Upper or Lower Houses, so I'm afraid, your concerns of losing power to the GC's is not where your concerns are, but rather wanting in keeping their land. I'll be happy to explain additional ways to maintain the TC numbers higher in the TC state if you are really serious about living in a Democratic Cyprus and not something that is a "Muslim Democracy" practiced in Undemocratic Countries that does not have a place in the EU, and neither the EU will accept it! When you think of your children's future, think of Democracy for them, or else their future will be in the hands of those who can best dominate them in an undemocratic society. You control their future, so give them the tools they need to live in a democratic society where they have a say so in their future, rather than others having contol of their future.!

Arent the laws made at the federal level above those of the states? so they influence state legistlators, with your plan the balance is in the favor of the south state so even if the balance went from 10 40 to 5 35 we cannot stop bills being passed, the real test is in the upper house if we lose the balance in favor of the GCs then the past sufferings would have been for nothing. What I am fighting against as a GC adminsitered Democracy where my children will have a voice and not be pushed to one side and discriminated against just for being a Turkish Cypriot. You want to throw them into the fire in the name of democracy and those that want to dominate and control them namely the GCs. You fear and trust the Turks as much as I do the GCs.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

Forgive me VP, but I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here. If 200,000 displaced GC's returned to their properties that will be part of the GC state, how could they then over run the TC state.? Something tells me that you are running out of arguments here just to justify in not giving any land back, in which case, it is you who risk the GC's overrunning the TC's in the TC state, and regardless of my power share plan, this is something you are going to deal with regardless, if and when peace is reached, because you will not be able to restrict any one's movement as the Annan Plan did. The only way to solve this problem is by giving the GC's their land back. Those Racist provisions will no longer apply. Even if partition was agreed on, you are back to square one, which means giving most of the land back. It is one of those equations, that no matter what method you use to make the calculations with, the answer always comes to be the same thing. I'm just giving you the most Democratic way in reaching that number. You may choose to do it in a undemocratic way, but the results are going to be the same.

It is not very difficult to understand but you seem to be blocking out what is obvious even if the North state is reduced to 25% or 29% as in the AP if desired the GCs can use their numerical advantage to gain the balance in their favor and get what they want total control over the whole island leaving us just another minority exposed to a hostile revenge seeking majority. Is this a possiblity? if the answer is yes then how do you expect us to take such a leap of faith.

Those three examples were the worst kind to show how the TC's would suffer if they were to lose any of the seats to the Upper House, which will not happen anyway in the explanations I already gave, plus I still have additional ways to prevent that from happening, but if your mind is already made up not to accept it, it's no point telling them now. I really do not think that the GC's will move 200,000 GC's into a TC state just to stick one to Turkey or the Turks, specially if Turkey makes it into the EU as Erdogan is trying with all his heart. You went from liking the plan by claiming it will be the GC's that I would need to sell this plan to, to rejecting it yourself, only after you have realised that half of the present "trnc" today, will need to be given back, or else expect 200,000 GC's in the TC state.

Lets hear your other ways to ensure we guarantee the 5 5 balance, you appear to now understand the importance so thats why you have generated alternatives to address this issue, thank you for showing that you are trying to create a system whereby the TCs are safeguarded against a hostile majority that could exploit their power to the detrement of TCs now allowing them an effective say in the running of a united Cyprus. I still dont feel that the GCs would accept sharing the upper house 5 5 if they do not have the open door you have allowed them to take control of the whole island.

What amazes me is, that the TC state is where all the TC's will live and all the laws that govern their state will be made with the state legislators and you have no concerns that the 200,000 GC's will take power away from the TC's locally, but you are concerned about "losing" a seat in the upper house. It makes absolutely no sense at all, because local power is where is all at. You got your priorities upside down I'm afraid. 99% of the laws the TC's will live by, will be made in the TC state and not in the Federal Upper or Lower Houses, so I'm afraid, your concerns of losing power to the GC's is not where your concerns are, but rather wanting in keeping their land. I'll be happy to explain additional ways to maintain the TC numbers higher in the TC state if you are really serious about living in a Democratic Cyprus and not something that is a "Muslim Democracy" practiced in Undemocratic Countries that does not have a place in the EU, and neither the EU will accept it! When you think of your children's future, think of Democracy for them, or else their future will be in the hands of those who can best dominate them in an undemocratic society. You control their future, so give them the tools they need to live in a democratic society where they have a say so in their future, rather than others having contol of their future.!

Arent the laws made at the federal level above those of the states? so they influence state legistlators, with your plan the balance is in the favor of the south state so even if the balance went from 10 40 to 5 35 we cannot stop bills being passed, the real test is in the upper house if we lose the balance in favor of the GCs then the past sufferings would have been for nothing. What I am fighting against as a GC adminsitered Democracy where my children will have a voice and not be pushed to one side and discriminated against just for being a Turkish Cypriot. You want to throw them into the fire in the name of democracy and those that want to dominate and control them namely the GCs. You fear and trust the Turks as much as I do the GCs.

VP,

I will answer your above post soon since I do not have time tonight, but can you please do me a favour and answer these question for me, without spin or politics. Just real numbers...........thanks.

1. How many TC's live in the "trnc". These are real TC's I'm asking and not any settlers that became "TC's".
2. How many settlers became "TC's".

3. How many TC's are there around the world. This I would really like to know if you have some numbers.!

I have a reason for asking these questions and for their truthfulness and will explain later.!

[Viewpoint]

You can obtain as many figures as you wish form this web site. http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/index.html any figures I provide you may dispute so Ill let you use which ever figures you want.

[Kikapu]

You can obtain as many figures as you wish form this web site. http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/index.html any figures I provide you may dispute so Ill let you use which ever figures you want.

It's like getting blood out of a Turnip with the above site. Never mind, I think I have another source that I can use. I really like to know what is going to be the likely numbers that the GC's will accept as the total TC's numbers (TC's + settlers = TC's) in the event of a settlement.!

I would still like to know, if you know, as to what are the TC's numbers around the world. Any ideas by any chance.?

[Kikapu]

"The Turkish-Cypriot side, it is debatable if there are any Turkish-Cypriots actually left as they have been outnumbered by actual Turks, Turkish troops, Turkish belly dancers and Turkish baths"

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cyprus

The above figures will not help me at all, no thanks to Iceman.!

[Get Real!]

1. How many TC's live in the "trnc". These are real TC's I'm asking and not any settlers that became "TC's".
2. How many settlers became "TC's".

3. How many TC's are there around the world. This I would really like to know if you have some numbers.!

I have a reason for asking these questions and for their truthfulness and will explain later.!

This U.S. Library of Congress article should help answer some of your questions…

http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/21.htm

[Viewpoint]

You can obtain as many figures as you wish form this web site. http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/index.html any figures I provide you may dispute so Ill let you use which ever figures you want.

It's like getting blood out of a Turnip with the above site. Never mind, I think I have another source that I can use. I really like to know what is going to be the likely numbers that the GC's will accept as the total TC's numbers (TC's + settlers = TC's) in the event of a settlement.!

I would still like to know, if you know, as to what are the TC's numbers around the world. Any ideas by any chance.?

Not a clue, pretty much guess work.

[Kikapu]

1. How many TC's live in the "trnc". These are real TC's I'm asking and not any settlers that became "TC's".
2. How many settlers became "TC's".

3. How many TC's are there around the world. This I would really like to know if you have some numbers.!

I have a reason for asking these questions and for their truthfulness and will explain later.!

This U.S. Library of Congress article should help answer some of your questions…

http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/21.htm

Thanks GR. This will help me some.!

Reading through the pages, I was not aware of this fact, which it even surprised me about Cyprus, specially being a Cypriot and all that jazz, but I did not know this information shown below..!

Agriculture: potatoes, citrus, vegetables, barley, grapes, olives, vegetables, poultry, pork, lamb, kids, dairy