Cyprus-Forum.com

[Naggie]

Kikapu – hello.

I live in the South. I empathise with Viewpoint's viewpoint.

His concern: maintaining TC control of the 5 seats.

You state the the two states must allow for freedom of movement between all ethnicities, under EU law. You state that dropping the TC land to, say 18%, will ensure a homogenous ethnic state and a guarantee of 5 seats.

This two statements are oxymoronic, as you're only looking at how the states will initially look immediately after an agreement. If GCs subsequently move into the TC state (as they are perfectly entitled to and more than economically capable of) they will gain an increase in political power, negating the TC protection of the 5 seats as the state will no longer be homogenous. So the plan does not offer the long-term protection along ethnic divisions that Viewpoint seeks.

Any statements 'regarding this is not likely to happen' are irrelevant – we are looking for political guarantees not sociological predictions.

If we are to play prediction games, one could in fact argue that, with TCs potentially moving south and the disparity of wealth allowing GCs to cheaply purchase TC property, many could easily afford second homes encouraging an osmosis of the poplulation, as TCs use this money to buy elsewhere. This is pure speculation – the colder argument is found above.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu – hello.

I live in the South. I empathise with Viewpoint's viewpoint.

His concern: maintaining TC control of the 5 seats.

You state the the two states must allow for freedom of movement between all ethnicities, under EU law. You state that dropping the TC land to, say 18%, will ensure a homogenous ethnic state and a guarantee of 5 seats.

This two statements are oxymoronic, as you're only looking at how the states will initially look immediately after an agreement. If GCs subsequently move into the TC state (as they are perfectly entitled to and more than economically capable of) they will gain an increase in political power, negating the TC protection of the 5 seats as the state will no longer be homogenous. So the plan does not offer the long-term protection along ethnic divisions that Viewpoint seeks.

Any statements 'regarding this is not likely to happen' are irrelevant – we are looking for political guarantees not sociological predictions.

If we are to play prediction games, one could in fact argue that, with TCs potentially moving south and the disparity of wealth allowing GCs to cheaply purchase TC property, many could easily afford second homes encouraging an osmosis of the poplulation, as TCs use this money to buy elsewhere. This is pure speculation – the colder argument is found above.

Thank you for adding some sanity to the proceedings of the demand for TC capitulation.

[Christine Toskos]

When the barbaric Turkish army will leave our homeland. Our people will go back to their homes and villages. Our people love our country and were willing to lay down their lives: Solomos Solomou, Gregoris Afxentiou, Gregoris Grivas, Archbishop Makarios etc. Name me one Turkish Cypriot who was willing to give his/her life for Cyprus? Not one. So, why is it wrong that we who parents, grandparents, and great grandparents suffered for our freedom not rule our own land? If a Cypriot, Muslim or Christian is a good citizen who is willing to fight for justice for our Greek island then they should have a seat in congress. But, remember no justice no peace. As long as the Turkish army continues to enslave the Turkish Cypriots economically and educationally we will have people who will be ignorant. The Turkish Cypriots know that the Greeks are right and their "so call" leader is wrong. They cannot admit that Turkey is holding them hostage.

[Naggie]

The basis of your argument is that the more you are wiling to fight for a country (and by implication, one's subjective view of justice), the more you are entitled to more political power and ownership of that country.

On that basis, you've vindicated the 'barbaric' Turkish army's effective control over a large part of Cyprus as reward for their willingness to fight and lay down their lives.

Of course, and without at all wishing to be rude, this peppers more irony on the statement 'we will have people who will be ignorant.' My favourite irony, however, has to lie with the fact that if you're too willing to die, you will. If everyone Cypriot was willing to die for their country, there'd be no Cypriots left to live! A quick flick through history shows what happens to civilisations who try and reject the basic human survival instinct!

On a serious note, I think all Cypriots would benefit from greater education: a study of post-colonialism and hybridity, through intellectuals like Edward Said and Homi Bhabha, would reap great rewards for removing artificial simulations of ethnic binaries.

[zan]

Kikapu – hello.

I live in the South. I empathise with Viewpoint's viewpoint.

His concern: maintaining TC control of the 5 seats.

You state the the two states must allow for freedom of movement between all ethnicities, under EU law. You state that dropping the TC land to, say 18%, will ensure a homogenous ethnic state and a guarantee of 5 seats.

This two statements are oxymoronic, as you're only looking at how the states will initially look immediately after an agreement. If GCs subsequently move into the TC state (as they are perfectly entitled to and more than economically capable of) they will gain an increase in political power, negating the TC protection of the 5 seats as the state will no longer be homogenous. So the plan does not offer the long-term protection along ethnic divisions that Viewpoint seeks.

Any statements 'regarding this is not likely to happen' are irrelevant – we are looking for political guarantees not sociological predictions.

If we are to play prediction games, one could in fact argue that, with TCs potentially moving south and the disparity of wealth allowing GCs to cheaply purchase TC property, many could easily afford second homes encouraging an osmosis of the poplulation, as TCs use this money to buy elsewhere. This is pure speculation – the colder argument is found above.

Thank you for adding some sanity to the proceedings of the demand for TC capitulation.

Kikapu is writing the Akritas plan mark 2.......

[Get Real!]

Kikapu is writing the Akritas plan mark 2.......

At long last… the Kikopoulos Plan!

Btw, Zanny... you may commence using this smiley -->

I've been saving it for you!

[zan]

Kikapu is writing the Akritas plan mark 2.......

At long last… the Kikopoulos Plan!

Btw, Zanny... you may commence using this smiley -->

I've been saving it for you!

At least the original was for "Internal" use only......This guy is trying to do magic tricks with all props in full view!!! Cha!

[Nikitas]

Those that are overconcerned with GCs moving into the TC federal state forget the basics of human behavior:

people tend to be drawn where the money is. Money overrides quality of life as a draw. In effect the people of CYprus will be drawn to the major business centers of the island and these are all in the south save Nicosia which is half and half, and even there, the business is in the southern part.

So the danger is not one of the GCs displacing TCs and taking over their 5 seats in the senate of Kikapu's theoretical plan, but the other way round.

Naturally Kikapu is proposing a hypothetical plan. But any plan, will eventually come up against the real dynamics of human behavior and the fluidity of settlement. In effect the northern federal state might find itself rather empty of voters but full of transients and retirees from other EU countries.

The TC negotiators know of these possibilities and their thrust is for an ethnic allocation of voting rights. Not that this will prevent the changes that natural social development will bring. It simply means that there will be a fixing of political rights in the relevant geographic region, so TCs living in Limassol will have to vote in let's say Kyrenia.

Ironically this system follows the Greek model where people vote in their place of municipal registrtion and at each election half the population moves back to their place of orgin to vote. Ofcourse in Greece the system works becaue voting is compulsory.

[zan]

Those that are overconcerned with GCs moving into the TC federal state forget the basics of human behavior:

people tend to be drawn where the money is. Money overrides quality of life as a draw. In effect the people of CYprus will be drawn to the major business centers of the island and these are all in the south save Nicosia which is half and half, and even there, the business is in the southern part.

So the danger is not one of the GCs displacing TCs and taking over their 5 seats in the senate of Kikapu's theoretical plan, but the other way round.

Naturally Kikapu is proposing a hypothetical plan. But any plan, will eventually come up against the real dynamics of human behavior and the fluidity of settlement. In effect the northern federal state might find itself rather empty of voters but full of transients and retirees from other EU countries.

The TC negotiators know of these possibilities and their thrust is for an ethnic allocation of voting rights. Not that this will prevent the changes that natural social development will bring. It simply means that there will be a fixing of political rights in the relevant geographic region, so TCs living in Limassol will have to vote in let's say Kyrenia.

Ironically this system follows the Greek model where people vote in their place of municipal registrtion and at each election half the population moves back to their place of orgin to vote. Ofcourse in Greece the system works becaue voting is compulsory.

Tell that to the scots who for decades lived in squaller as no investment was made there by the rich south.....

[Nikitas]

Same goes for the former industrial heartland of England- Sheffield and other former glorious names in industry. So it is not an ethnic thing, it just happens that money tends to attract itself.