Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

So in short it doesnt really matter if the Tc state is reduced to 20% or 29% the Gcs can still swamp the TC state and take the one seat necessary to brush us aside. There has to be concrete reason for deserting the upper house such as not adhering to supreme court judgements and then being forced to accept consititutional changes for the right to return. You are one mixed up individual and want to lead us into danger and domination but TCs ar enot stupid and will never fall into your Gc trap.

So in short it doesnt really matter if the Tc state is reduced to 20% or 29% the Gcs can still swamp the TC state and take the one seat necessary to brush us aside.

No, that's not true, and if you comprehended the English language in what I wrote, you would not make such stupid comments. Your question was;

So the influx of GCs who own property into the North state can in fact take one of the upper house seats and therefore swing the balance in the GCs favour

If the GCs did not have their properties in the north state, and using your own argument as stated above, they would not have a reason to be in the north, therefore they will not be a threat to the upper house seats. Looks to me like you have put your own feet in your own mouth. You are as bad as YFred who can't get his propaganda shit together. You two are the perfect “dumb & dumber” characters.!

But go ahead and keep all of the 37% if you are so cocky and watch the north lose half of the upper house seats from day one. At 29%, I'll give it till the next election cycle. Talat is talking about allowing 150,000 GC to return. Nice move Mr. Talat. Looks like Christmas will be coming early for the GCs this year.!

There has to be concrete reason for deserting the upper house such as not adhering to supreme court judgements and then being forced to accept consititutional changes for the right to return.

You always have a concrete reason...............PARTITION, or else you would not have voted for Annan Plan and keep harping on that fucking thing for the last 5 years. So yes, you cannot be trusted with guaranteed upper seats, because you will abuse it. You have an alternative way in keeping those seats democratically, and if you pull them out of their elected seat to cause a constitutional crises, they will be thrown out and impeached. How do you like them apples, Fascist NeoPartitionist.? Is this the reason why you want Turkey's guarantees, so that you can walk out of the government so that they can come once again.? As the saying goes, "Fuck me once shame on you. Fuck me twice, shame on me". Sorry Englishman, VP, but everyone can see your game plan and will not fall for your tricks and I don't want decent TCs to suffer once again because of all you Fascist NeoPartitionist.

You are one mixed up individual and want to lead us into danger and domination but TCs ar enot stupid and will never fall into your Gc trap.

You don't even know your own questions that you ask, and you are calling me mixed up. Look, I knew you were just trying to get my plan off the "front page" with your usual nonsense, and the fact that you do not support True Democracy, Human Rights, International laws and EU Principles, there is no point discussing this plan with you any longer. When you change your mind set, come back then, but in the meantime, any new Cyprus settlement will have the above principles or else there will not be a settlement and no EU for Turkey and no recognition of the north. Then again, Turkey's 70,000,000 has more ZERO's than the north's 70,000 True TCs. I wonder who will Turkey choose.?

You appear to be the one clutching at straws and using this "True Democracy, Human Rights" as if it is going out of fashion as we all know there are many shades, the important issue is who weilds the power to administer what you preach and without a guaranteed say the majority of TCs accept that there will never be a solution, why do you have problems understanding this. The current situation is preferred to any agreement which would allow the GCs the right to take control of the whole island and work the "True Democracy, Human Rights" to push us aside without any effective say in our own future. You need to rethink a way of ensuring this does not happen otherwise Gcs will not get one inch of land back, tıy redıcing your size or they will swamp you shit is laughable its much easier to swamp 20% than it is 29% when you have freedom of movement and settlement. What needed are guarantees seats in the upper house where neither side can depart if they do they know the full penalities for doing so prior to any such act.

You are asking TCs to take off their life jacket knowing full well the dangers and the sharks that exists in choppy waters, you are judus if I ever saw one.

[YFred]

So in short it doesnt really matter if the Tc state is reduced to 20% or 29% the Gcs can still swamp the TC state and take the one seat necessary to brush us aside. There has to be concrete reason for deserting the upper house such as not adhering to supreme court judgements and then being forced to accept consititutional changes for the right to return. You are one mixed up individual and want to lead us into danger and domination but TCs ar enot stupid and will never fall into your Gc trap.

So in short it doesnt really matter if the Tc state is reduced to 20% or 29% the Gcs can still swamp the TC state and take the one seat necessary to brush us aside.

No, that's not true, and if you comprehended the English language in what I wrote, you would not make such stupid comments. Your question was;

So the influx of GCs who own property into the North state can in fact take one of the upper house seats and therefore swing the balance in the GCs favour

If the GCs did not have their properties in the north state, and using your own argument as stated above, they would not have a reason to be in the north, therefore they will not be a threat to the upper house seats. Looks to me like you have put your own feet in your own mouth. You are as bad as YFred who can't get his propaganda shit together. You two are the perfect “dumb & dumber” characters.!

But go ahead and keep all of the 37% if you are so cocky and watch the north lose half of the upper house seats from day one. At 29%, I'll give it till the next election cycle. Talat is talking about allowing 150,000 GC to return. Nice move Mr. Talat. Looks like Christmas will be coming early for the GCs this year.!

There has to be concrete reason for deserting the upper house such as not adhering to supreme court judgements and then being forced to accept consititutional changes for the right to return.

You always have a concrete reason...............PARTITION, or else you would not have voted for Annan Plan and keep harping on that fucking thing for the last 5 years. So yes, you cannot be trusted with guaranteed upper seats, because you will abuse it. You have an alternative way in keeping those seats democratically, and if you pull them out of their elected seat to cause a constitutional crises, they will be thrown out and impeached. How do you like them apples, Fascist NeoPartitionist.? Is this the reason why you want Turkey's guarantees, so that you can walk out of the government so that they can come once again.? As the saying goes, "Fuck me once shame on you. Fuck me twice, shame on me". Sorry Englishman, VP, but everyone can see your game plan and will not fall for your tricks and I don't want decent TCs to suffer once again because of all you Fascist NeoPartitionist.

You are one mixed up individual and want to lead us into danger and domination but TCs ar enot stupid and will never fall into your Gc trap.

You don't even know your own questions that you ask, and you are calling me mixed up. Look, I knew you were just trying to get my plan off the "front page" with your usual nonsense, and the fact that you do not support True Democracy, Human Rights, International laws and EU Principles, there is no point discussing this plan with you any longer. When you change your mind set, come back then, but in the meantime, any new Cyprus settlement will have the above principles or else there will not be a settlement and no EU for Turkey and no recognition of the north. Then again, Turkey's 70,000,000 has more ZERO's than the north's 70,000 True TCs. I wonder who will Turkey choose.?

You appear to be the one clutching at straws and using this "True Democracy, Human Rights" as if it is going out of fashion as we all know there are many shades, the important issue is who weilds the power to administer what you preach and without a guaranteed say the majority of TCs accept that there will never be a solution, why do you have problems understanding this. The current situation is preferred to any agreement which would allow the GCs the right to take control of the whole island and work the "True Democracy, Human Rights" to push us aside without any effective say in our own future. You need to rethink a way of ensuring this does not happen otherwise Gcs will not get one inch of land back, tıy redıcing your size or they will swamp you shit is laughable its much easier to swamp 20% than it is 29% when you have freedom of movement and settlement. What needed are guarantees seats in the upper house where neither side can depart if they do they know the full penalities for doing so prior to any such act.

You are asking TCs to take off their life jacket knowing full well the dangers and the sharks that exists in choppy waters, you are judus if I ever saw one.

He is not just Judus, he can also square the circle and he is not even a mathematician.

VP, his plan will never work because it is open to abuse. I will try to put it in his words. If this agreement is a marriage, it will be an open marrigae. If anybody is not happy, they should be able to go their own way with the mandate of their people. What Kikapoo does not realise is that we are no longer living in the 50's and there is no stigma involved in separation. We will only live together with the GC if they don't try to abuse the system like last time. Other wise it is either two States or Joining Turkey. Either way it's TC's human rights to decide that, and they will be applied whether Mr Shitbags likes it or not.

[Kikapu]

He is not just Judus, he can also square the circle and he is not even a mathematician.

VP, his plan will never work because it is open to abuse. I will try to put it in his words. If this agreement is a marriage, it will be an open marrigae. If anybody is not happy, they should be able to go their own way with the mandate of their people. What Kikapoo does not realise is that we are no longer living in the 50's and there is no stigma involved in separation. We will only live together with the GC if they don't try to abuse the system like last time. Other wise it is either two States or Joining Turkey. Either way it's TC's human rights to decide that, and they will be applied whether Mr Shitbags likes it or not.

YFreak,

Read the plan first idiot before you open your mouth, but now that you have opened your mouth, out of habit, I'm sure , tell us why it will not work and that it will be open to abuse.? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one who supports the Annan Plan, which it's main purpose was only to be open for abuse.?

Next time think before you open your mouth.!

[YFred]

He is not just Judus, he can also square the circle and he is not even a mathematician.

VP, his plan will never work because it is open to abuse. I will try to put it in his words. If this agreement is a marriage, it will be an open marrigae. If anybody is not happy, they should be able to go their own way with the mandate of their people. What Kikapoo does not realise is that we are no longer living in the 50's and there is no stigma involved in separation. We will only live together with the GC if they don't try to abuse the system like last time. Other wise it is either two States or Joining Turkey. Either way it's TC's human rights to decide that, and they will be applied whether Mr Shitbags likes it or not.

YFreak,

Read the plan first idiot before you open your mouth, but now that you have opened your mouth, out of habit, I'm sure , tell us why it will not work and that it will be open to abuse.? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one who supports the Annan Plan, which it's main purpose was only to be open for abuse.?

Next time think before you open your mouth.!

I did read it and I even suggested how to improve it so that it would be acceptable to the TCs but you are such a pratt and so full of yourself that one begins to get bored talking to a brick shit house.

[Kikapu]

He is not just Judus, he can also square the circle and he is not even a mathematician.

VP, his plan will never work because it is open to abuse. I will try to put it in his words. If this agreement is a marriage, it will be an open marrigae. If anybody is not happy, they should be able to go their own way with the mandate of their people. What Kikapoo does not realise is that we are no longer living in the 50's and there is no stigma involved in separation. We will only live together with the GC if they don't try to abuse the system like last time. Other wise it is either two States or Joining Turkey. Either way it's TC's human rights to decide that, and they will be applied whether Mr Shitbags likes it or not.

YFreak,

Read the plan first idiot before you open your mouth, but now that you have opened your mouth, out of habit, I'm sure , tell us why it will not work and that it will be open to abuse.? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one who supports the Annan Plan, which it's main purpose was only to be open for abuse.?

Next time think before you open your mouth.!

I did read it and I even suggested how to improve it so that it would be acceptable to the TCs but you are such a pratt and so full of yourself that one begins to get bored talking to a brick shit house.

YFreak,

You have not made any contribution to this thread at all, so I don't know how you could have read it and made suggestions for improvements. Your only "contribution" has only been on this one page only (page 24) and it has been nothing but crap.

But since my memory is very intact and sharp, you did say on another thread on a unrelated topic to mine many months ago that the upper house members should be elected (selected) by the lower house members instead of being elected by the people directly of those states to get around the GCs voting for the upper house seats in the north state, and my answer to you was, that if you did that, you are likely to lose seats in the upper house for the north state to be in the hands of the TCs, because the lower house would have 80% GCs and 20% TCs, and not to mention the fact, that you would be disenfranchising many Cypriots living in the north from exercising their Democratic rights to vote directly.

In a nutshell, all you were doing was violating others rights, so that you can keep more of their land and denying them their Democratic and Human Rights. If I wanted to take your advice on that kind of an "improvement", I might as well support the Annan Plan. Why would I need any ideas from you on how to violate others rights when the Annan Plan had it all.. The only way to get around this problem, is to return 50% of the north back to the south so that 150,000 GC refugees and their land would then become part of the south state. Anything less, then you will need to get creative in how to violate many of the GC refugees rights and I will not do that, nor would I agree to a plan that would violate any of the TC refugees rights.

[YFred]

He is not just Judus, he can also square the circle and he is not even a mathematician.

VP, his plan will never work because it is open to abuse. I will try to put it in his words. If this agreement is a marriage, it will be an open marrigae. If anybody is not happy, they should be able to go their own way with the mandate of their people. What Kikapoo does not realise is that we are no longer living in the 50's and there is no stigma involved in separation. We will only live together with the GC if they don't try to abuse the system like last time. Other wise it is either two States or Joining Turkey. Either way it's TC's human rights to decide that, and they will be applied whether Mr Shitbags likes it or not.

YFreak,

Read the plan first idiot before you open your mouth, but now that you have opened your mouth, out of habit, I'm sure , tell us why it will not work and that it will be open to abuse.? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one who supports the Annan Plan, which it's main purpose was only to be open for abuse.?

Next time think before you open your mouth.!

I did read it and I even suggested how to improve it so that it would be acceptable to the TCs but you are such a pratt and so full of yourself that one begins to get bored talking to a brick shit house.

YFreak,

You have not made any contribution to this thread at all, so I don't know how you could have read it and made suggestions for improvements. Your only "contribution" has only been on this one page only (page 24) and it has been nothing but crap.

But since my memory is very intact and sharp, you did say on another thread on a unrelated topic to mine many months ago that the upper house members should be elected (selected) by the lower house members instead of being elected by the people directly of those states to get around the GCs voting for the upper house seats in the north state, and my answer to you was, that if you did that, you are likely to lose seats in the upper house for the north state to be in the hands of the TCs, because the lower house would have 80% GCs and 20% TCs, and not to mention the fact, that you would be disenfranchising many Cypriots living in the north from exercising their Democratic rights to vote directly.

In a nutshell, all you were doing was violating others rights, so that you can keep more of their land and denying them their Democratic and Human Rights. If I wanted to take your advice on that kind of an "improvement", I might as well support the Annan Plan. Why would I need any ideas from you on how to violate others rights when the Annan Plan had it all.. The only way to get around this problem, is to return 50% of the north back to the south so that 150,000 GC refugees and their land would then become part of the south state. Anything less, then you will need to get creative in how to violate many of the GC refugees rights and I will not do that, nor would I agree to a plan that would violate any of the TC refugees rights.

Shitbags,
Stop contradicting yourself in one post. Of course I did, the fact that it was in another thread is neither here or there, it's everywhere old chap.
You have hit the nail on the head. Protecting one communities rights violates the others rights. Too bloody right. The reverse is also true. By you protecting GCs rights, will violate TCs right in the future. How will you get the TCs to accept a system where the GCs with their money will be able to flood one or two areas in the north or even as many areas as they need, take political control of the system and do as they wish as in 63.
TCs need you and your plan as much as they need a hole in the head. If your plan cannot guaranty their system as it is set up, how can anybody have any faith in it? I think you’ve been sailing on icebergs too long.
I think I've wasted enough of my time talking to you and listening to all the bullshit that comes out of your stupid head.

[Kikapu]

Shitbags,
Stop contradicting yourself in one post. Of course I did, the fact that it was in another thread is neither here or there, it's everywhere old chap.
You have hit the nail on the head. Protecting one communities rights violates the others rights. Too bloody right. The reverse is also true. By you protecting GCs rights, will violate TCs right in the future. How will you get the TCs to accept a system where the GCs with their money will be able to flood one or two areas in the north or even as many areas as they need, take political control of the system and do as they wish as in 63.
TCs need you and your plan as much as they need a hole in the head. If your plan cannot guaranty their system as it is set up, how can anybody have any faith in it? I think you’ve been sailing on icebergs too long.
I think I've wasted enough of my time talking to you and listening to all the bullshit that comes out of your stupid head.

Shitbags,
Stop contradicting yourself in one post. Of course I did, the fact that it was in another thread is neither here or there, it's everywhere old chap.

YFreak,

No contradictions at all. I was just pointing out your lies, that's all.

Clearly you have not read the plan. Your comments on another thread and topic had nothing to do with this plan, but the usual regurgitation by the Fascist NeoPartitionist on what the AP had said and what you want. Then again you never read anything asked of you, as the case was with the Perry Anderson's article "The Division of Cyprus". You prefer to remain ignorant and only look for Racist settlement that can give you a legal partition..................dream on.!

You have hit the nail on the head. Protecting one communities rights violates the others rights. Too bloody right.

I never said such thing. By wanting a True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles does not violate the TCs rights. In fact, they will protect all the rights for the TCs as well as the GCs, and for all Cypriots. You are wanting the reverse, where you want to deny these basic rights to the GCs and anyone else who is not a TC, is what you want. If one of the communities want special rights, that can be arranged, but they will then become a political minority community, and even then, you are not allowed to violate others basic rights as I stated above. Is that what you want, to be a political minority.??

The reverse is also true. By you protecting GCs rights, will violate TCs right in the future.

Really.! What TCs Rights would be violated in the future by having a True Democracy. I'm dying to read this one.!

I think you are thinking about all the so called "Democracy" that is exercised in all the Muslim countries, where such violations go on all the time.!

How will you get the TCs to accept a system where the GCs with their money will be able to flood one or two areas in the north or even as many areas as they need, take political control of the system and do as they wish as in 63.

1963 has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

That's my whole point, by the TCs wanting more than 18-20% of the north as a north state, they will automatically be inviting problems for themselves because all the GCs who have property in the north will be eligible to return back to their land and the north in general, even if they do not get to go back to their exact properties in extreme cases, because of freedom of movement will allow them to go back to their towns and villages. By reducing the north state's size, you are also reducing the size of GCs who have property in the north. Had you read this thread at all, I did suggest to VP, that after most of the GC land is given back, the remaining GC's numbers will be very small in comparison to the TCs population, in which you can then ask for derogations from the EU to limit the increase of the GCs numbers in the north, perhaps at the same rate of growth as the TCs, which would mean that the GCs numbers will always remain low in the north.

I believe the GCs will go for something like this if most of their land is returned to become part of the south state and there is a TRUE FEDERATION, because I do not believe many GCs will want to come and live with you in the north, which is what VP has been telling us all these years, therefore, we will not be violating any GCs Human Rights by them not being able to live in the north state, because these GCs will not exist. They will only be a phantom violations on the GCs and not in reality. You cannot violate something that does not exist, and I believe the GCs will not want to come and live in the north. You will have more of a chance more TCs wanting to live in the south state. The trick is to return most of the GC land back along with their owners to be part of the south state. As for your "flooding the north state by the GCs" is nothing but a fantasy fear mongering to justify in keeping most of the GCs land. If you did that, don't expect the GCs to give you any derogations on freedom of movement which will automatically allow as many as 180,000 GCs to be in the north state from day one as there will be TCs. Maybe even more, and then your goose will be cooked for sure, politically speaking, of course. The only reason why you want to manipulate/rig the voting system in an undemocratic way, so not to give any land back and have the option to walk away with that land later in the form of a legal partition.!

Yeah right, YFreak. Look in the sky and you will see pigs fly too.!

TCs need you and your plan as much as they need a hole in the head.

Depends if they want to be in the EU and be part of the western society with western values with True Democracy, rather than the "corrupted society" you have now where upon demand the party in power can just convert settlers into "trnc" citizens to screw the True TCs by taking away their voting power. Oops, too late, because it has already happened with additional 15,000 more settlers on the way, and you have the nerve to say "By you protecting GCs rights, will violate TCs right in the future". I don't see you protecting the TCs rights or be concern about their future. You are worse than all the other Fascist Denktash supporters, and you made yourself to be anything but when you first joined the forum. You are no different than all the other Fascists who can't wait to destroy the TC culture and heritage as Cypriots. The only thing that can save them, is a plan such as mine. If it can work for the Americans, it can work for Cypriots. Look, they even got a Black President as a proof.

If your plan cannot guaranty their system as it is set up, how can anybody have any faith in it?

They will have the same guarantee as any other Cypriot. Anything other than political minority rights, then you start violating others Democratic and Human Rights which will not be allowed. Learn to live in the modern times and let go your 16th century mentality.

You can hold out if you want until a time comes when Turkey (if they are foolish enough to annex the north), I'm sure Turkey will give you all the political advantages you ask for over the GCs, just because you think it is your right, to be given to you over the Turks in Turkey, just to have you to be part of their country.!

YFreak, look in the sky, because you can see Pigs flying again.!

I think I've wasted enough of my time talking to you and listening to all the bullshit that comes out of your stupid head.

I know YFreak. All this talk about True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles must be hurting your morally corrupted mind. Lightweights like you shouldn’t really wonder off and get lost in serious topics which you know nothing about. Go and do your one liners and just bud in to disrupt others posts, therefore I for one be happy to see you go from this thread since you have shown yourself being incapable to hold a political discussion without repeating all the crap VP repeats, because you all know, that this plan gives you everything you have asked for as far as the power sharing goes with veto power and 50% say so in the government through the Upper House and yet it is not good enough, and the reason is, because it does not allow you to keep most of the GC land and does not allow you to have a partitioning of the north with all that GC land. A simple derogation from the EU with the RoCs approval, you can limit the number of GCs in the north state, providing you have shown to be Fair and Just. If you are not, then keep believing that everything will be coming your way after these talks fail just because you do not want a settlement on all of the principles I have mentioned already. Now YFreak, I know your brain is about to explode with what I have written, so why don't you go and read the Annan Plan (for the first time, I'm sure) to comfort your brain a little.!

[Viewpoint]

Just one question again Kikapu under your plan with the freedom of movement we all support can the GCs settle in the TC state be it 18% or 29%? and take control of the 1 seat necessary to take us out of the equation? Your plan has to include a structure which will not leave the door wide open to manipulation and power grabbing the rules should be steadfast and clear cut otherwise the majority will use their advantage to take full conttol of the whole island and render the TCs a noneffective minority...anything outseide of this and the Tcs will not go for it they feel so strongly about this point that they are willing to unite with Turkey rather than leave their future in the hands of GCs with any effective say. When will you get this into your head? and attempt to incorporate this reality? into any of your arguements. Otherwise you are fighting a battle on your own as no Tcs will take you seriously let alone vote for anything as dangerous as the political death warrant you have placed before us.

[zan]

Just one question again Kikapu under your plan with the freedom of movement we all support can the GCs settle in the TC state be it 18% or 29%? and take control of the 1 seat necessary to take us out of the equation? Your plan has to include a structure which will not leave the door wide open to manipulation and power grabbing the rules should be steadfast and clear cut otherwise the majority will use their advantage to take full conttol of the whole island and render the TCs a noneffective minority...anything outseide of this and the Tcs will not go for it they feel so strongly about this point that they are willing to unite with Turkey rather than leave their future in the hands of GCs with any effective say. When will you get this into your head? and attempt to incorporate this reality? into any of your arguements. Otherwise you are fighting a battle on your own as no Tcs will take you seriously let alone vote for anything as dangerous as the political death warrant you have placed before us.

All taken into account in the Zurich agreement and then later in the Annan plan...It seems some want these doors to be left open...I wonder why??

[Kikapu]

Just one question again Kikapu under your plan with the freedom of movement we all support can the GCs settle in the TC state be it 18% or 29%? and take control of the 1 seat necessary to take us out of the equation? Your plan has to include a structure which will not leave the door wide open to manipulation and power grabbing the rules should be steadfast and clear cut otherwise the majority will use their advantage to take full conttol of the whole island and render the TCs a noneffective minority...anything outseide of this and the Tcs will not go for it they feel so strongly about this point that they are willing to unite with Turkey rather than leave their future in the hands of GCs with any effective say. When will you get this into your head? and attempt to incorporate this reality? into any of your arguements. Otherwise you are fighting a battle on your own as no Tcs will take you seriously let alone vote for anything as dangerous as the political death warrant you have placed before us.

All taken into account in the Zurich agreement and then later in the Annan plan...It seems some want these doors to be left open...I wonder why??

Welcome to True Democracy, Zan. You cannot have a democracy and have an absolute policy where it cannot be challenged legally and by the will of the people. When the the citizens do not have a voice, it is called dictatorship or democracy in name only which is found in many parts of the world. Both the 1960 Zurich agreement and the Annan Plan did not deal with Democracy at all, but rather it was totally undemocratic, violated Human Rights and violated International Laws. Both of those plans were before the RoC was in the EU and you could have gotten away with it if the GCs went along with it, but that train already left the station, so we have to deal with the situation we have today and not what it was before. I personally think both of those plans were an insult to any country who's citizens wants to live together and build their country, but lets put me aside for the moment just because I do not accept such racist policies and ask you to go and convince all the 27 EU members to accept a plan such as the AP. If you can succeed in convincing them and the GCs, then I will have no choice but to accept it also, since majority rules. I still think it would be bad for the country if such policies were to be implemented, since we have the proof from the 1960 agreements, that they lead to conflicts. Why try a failed policy again. In any case Zan, go and convince the EU to adopt the AP policies and see what they will tell you. My proposals are within the EU framework, but what you guys want is outside the EU framework. What chance do you think you will have convincing the EU members with close to 450 million people to adopt the AP like policies when you can't even convince 800,000 GCs. If you have a better proposals than mine Zan, taking in the EU’s principles, I'm all ears, so let hear it........please.!