Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,
You deserve our admiration and gratitute for all the work you have put into this thread....I have read the whole thread in one sitting and I believe this power sharing agreement would work with slight ammendments to accomodate VP's main fear...The Federal upper house members (Senators) would be chosen by a quota system i assume...political parties would put up their candidates (max of 5) and the citizens in each state would vote for their prefered ticket,so to speak...so for every 20% of the vote the party would get 1 senator....Think about this...for the GCs to gain one Senator in the North their party would need to win 20% of the vote...To win 2 seats they will need 40% of the vote....

So what is stopping us to make it not 6 but 8 votes needed from the upper house to pass any bill....Or if you want to go all the way and make it watertight,we can say all 10 senators have to vote for any bill to make it law....Two questions...Would anyone really object to this on democratic grounds??? And would this satisfy VP's fears of domination by the GCs??????

Hi Bir,

Let me talk about your second paragraph only, because I want to address your first paragraph in my next post regarding getting the whole process started from the time peace is achieved..

By adding more numbers to pass any bill is not what VP is worried about, and secondly, the more numbers you add that passes the 50% margin to pass any laws, you are creating problems, such as;

a) getting away from simple majority rule

b) you are creating gridlock in the government requiring 8 or god forbid, 10 senate votes (100%) to pass anything. Hake you ever tried to get 10 people to agree on anything.? This will lead to complete gridlock of the government, because as DT stated, you will have small minority group blocking the whole process.

VP is happy with the simple majority of 6 votes, because anything one side that does not like in a bill, will vote against it, and at 5-5 votes for both states (sides), then it is a tie, then only a vice President and President can break the tie, and if they too cannot, then the bill either dies or it is revised to be voted again later. The government needs to work and the higher the numbers (%) required to pass a bill, the less chance you are going to get everyone to agree on, or that in order to agree on a bill by all 8 or 10 senators, the bill will be so watered down to please everyone from it's original intent, it will be like drinking 1% fat milk...........yuck.!

What VP is concerned about is not having enough TC's vs. the number of GC's in the north state if the present lines to be kept as is now, which would mean, that the GC's will take away potentially one or two senate seats away if the GC vs TC population is on even numbers if all 200,000 GC's were to return. His other concern is, by giving the GC's their land back and reducing the north state by 50% of what it is today's "trnc", he believes that will not be enough land to have a functioning state. The advantage of doing the above of course, is to keep the north almost "pure TC" which would mean maintaining the 5 senate seats and equal power for the TC's at 50%. Lets not forget what VP has been demanding all these times. He wants the TC's to have equal power and also for them to have an equal say to their future. Since most of the TC's and GC's future is determined within their own states which is where 99% of decisions are made that will effect their day to day lives, this plan makes that possible. VP has yet to come to terms with of giving GC land back to become part of the GC state, and that is where his problems lies. You can blame the AP for that, because it gave the TC's way too much land than it should have done, so now it is hard to accept anything less. The moment he accepts the realities on the ground, then everything will fit in it's place.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

The Lower House seats represent the "proportionate representation" of the people of Cyprus. there's no way around the imbalance of these seats, due to the fact that the GC's are 4:1 ratio majority (actually, that ratio is much higher at the moment and will explain more in my next post regarding numbers). The Upper House seats represents the states equally regardless of the population numbers.!

So in other words we have lost the balance in the lower house whether it be 40 10 or 49 1 we cannot get anything agreed unless the GCs see fit.

Right or Wrong? (Please just say one or the other)

The answer to your question is "RIGHT".! but this was stated from the beginning so I did not feel it was necessary to state the obvious every time. The TC's and GC's will only have equal power in the Upper House level. As I said before though VP, the lower house is only a loss for the TC's, if everything is decided along ethnic lines and not based on political ideology lines, which what will happen once the new country and system starts up running. Once people get use to the idea of having peace and the system is trusted, you will see people voting across ethnic lines into political ideology lines. This you will not be able to stop, which of course, is what should happen and will happen, that will unite Cypriots as one people, but divided along political ideology only. This is what I talked about the "shifting sand dunes" that will change the political scene at different times.

I did state from the beginning that almost all of the TC's will need to live in the TC state and that almost all of the GC land needs to be returned in order to safeguard those 5 seats. But it is interesting for you to state, that the TC's will not be willing to move to live in a TC state, but you believe all the GC's will move to the TC state just to tip the balance between the communities to "steal" your 5 seats.! Besides, that's not what DT said. He said, that due to possible lack of jobs in the north, that the TC's may have to move to the GC state to find a living, and if the TC's can't find a living in their TC state, then why would a GC move to the north state. How will they make a living if some TC's won't be able to, therefore don't expect many GC's to move to a state where they do not own property already. Makes no sense to me at all. The other interesting thing you have said, and I have been waiting for you to do this, is giving us the true numbers on the TC population in the north now, which is around 100,000 as I stated previously. It is this number that is causing you all the worry with my plan, but as I stated before and have not done so yet, was to show you how we can get this number to be around 250,000 TC's with voting rights. Look for my next post to cover this.

It will be impossible to get all TCs into the north state with a population of 256.000, handing back 50% of the land meaning we would be reduced to 18%, that leaving many TCs who own land in the 19% in the GC state, hence why I am stating our numbers will automatically be depleated and that will hand the GCs the opportunity they long for to use their numerical advantage all in the name of democracy GC style to move into the TC state just to gain those 5 seats and total control of the whole island which is their ultimate goal which you have handed them on a plate. The more land we hand back the more our numbers will drop. Why not keep the 2 states as they are and ask GCs if they want to live in the TC state, if they dont then they get compensation and if they do then we will see the real weight they will gain in the north. The same principle applies GCs if not trying to gain the 5 seats will stay in the GC state becuase they have built their lives there and allow the TCs to run their state without hinderence. those that really wish to return should be allowed to do so .

You have to understand a big big difference between you who live miles away from Cyprus and me who reside here on the island, you trust the GCs 100% and I dont so I need safeguards to guarantee my rights to having an effective contribution to the running of a united Cyprus.

This is why, the north state may have to be split into 2-3 parts to accommodate most TC's to be in the TC state. Also, some of the returning GC land may also need to be in 2-3 pieces to accommodate the GC's who may want to be part of the GC state.

I would be very happy if the present lines remained as is, as long as the returning GC's (potential 200,000) have a right to vote in the state they live in. Are you prepared to accept this knowing that you will lose power in the Upper House as well as state seats in the local government. Of course, the north will gain more lower house seats, but some of those will be held by the GC's also. Is this really what you are suggesting, and if so, why are you so concern about TC's losing the Upper House seats.

Me living far away is not really the issue. If there is no trust between the GC's and TC's, why is there a peace talks and not talks on agreed partition.? You really do not need to like love your neighbour, but you are expected to be polite to them unless they are complete assholes. So, be polite and get on with your life and they will do the same. I do not like the policies of the Republicans most of the time, but it does not mean I hate them. No, I work to change the political scenes to get them out of office instead................Democratically.!

The only way you are going to give the G's a "loaded Gun" is by not giving most of their land back, because they would have right to return policy back to their land in the north. This is why it is important to give back most, if not all of their land back, even if it means in large parcels to reduce the need for them to move to a TC state. Once again, look for my next post on this matter.

Dont agree but willing to read what you have to say.

Coming shortly.!

Any guarantees given to the TC's that is undemocratic, much like the 1960 constitution or Annan Plan, then it will be voted down by the GC's. They will not go down that path anymore, specially not when the RoC is now in the EU. Any guarantees that is unfair will be challenged at later stage even if it were to be granted now. You will really then expose yourself for trouble, specially if you do not give most of the GC land back to them.

Then we have no deal if they challenge what they sign again renegging how can they be trusted certain safeguards are vital to a solution.

That's why it is important to get things done CORRECTLY the first time around where almost everyone is comfortable with the agreements signed.

I'm curios though, as to just how much land are you willing to give back to the GC's and what guarantees are you asking for that will not violate anyone’s Democratic and Human Rights. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears, so lets hear them. In my opinion, the only way for the TC's not to be pushed aside as you put it, is to give most of the GC land back so that it will become part of the GC state. Otherwise, if you want to keep what AP proposed, then you will be playing into the hands of the GC's, and not only they will get their land back with freedom of movement, but also some, if not most of the power in the TC state.

Place it in which every shape you wish the TCs have to have the right to say no when they feel threatened, this can be a veto or guaranteed 5 seats in the upper house but if there is no safeguard to stop GCs from manipulating, exploiting and discrminating against the TCs willnever accept a solution, like the GCs we to have the right to say NO.

You can say NO all you want, as long as it is done Democratically, and in order for you to do that, you need to maintain the 5 seats in the Upper House in the hands of the TC's, and in order for you to do that, the TC state has to be predominantly TC's, and in order for that to happen, almost all of the GC land will need to be given back to become a part of the GC state, which will mean there won't be need for the GC's to move into the TC state. It all works really, until everyone starts to vote across ethnic lines based only on political ideology, then it will not matter who is holding those seats in the Upper and Lower house from both the states. Then you will have a True Democracy in Cyprus like any other nation in Europe.

[Nikitas]

Reading the plan we come across the same doubts that plague the current talks, especially in this phase where land and territory is on the table.

One way around the real and understandable fear of the TCs of being dominated by the GCs is to grant rights of residence in each state but without political rights. I know this will go against Kikapu's principle of democratic representation in the place of a citizen's residence. On the other hand, the TCs, having a state in which they will always have the upper hand regardless of numbers, will preserve the principle of bizonality as they see it. More on this furthe down.

The same system applies more or less across the EU now. For instance, I live in Greece, and have been here for 35 years but have no right to vote in any election other than the Euroelections. In a small place like CYprus where a citizen can be at his place of voting in an hour at the most this will be no big deal.

Looking at the issue of territory within the context of bizonality it must be settled in a manner which is fair, will not leave any lingering desires to "correct" the situation, minimise property claims, apportion coastline fairly, prevent future conflicts. To do all this the territory issue must deal with the ISLAND as opposed to the REPUBLIC's territory. This means that the British bases must be declared to be in the GC area and if and when the British leave the bases will revert to the GC consituent part. This prevents any future conflict over territory which at the time of the settlement formally belongs to neither side. It will also minimise the British ability to foment divisions in the future(we know how that works!).

In addition the TC side must sign a declaration that it desists from any territorial claims beyond its defined constituent state, this would calm down the legitimate fears ot the GCs that the TC-Turkish side has plans for the whole island.

In the day to day running of the federal state some realities will emerge. My opinion, (opinion, not the gospel, so take it easy!) is that the population will gravitate where there are jobs and active social life. No amount of artificial or planned "development" can supplant real economic and social activity. In the end it will be the three traditional centers which will attract most of the population- Nicosia, Limassol and Famagusta. This development will by necessity bring about certain peculiarities of politics. TCs will not have any representation in Limassol, but will have vital interests there and these will most likely be covered by parties that have the largest cross communal ties and cooperation. Reality will eventually establish a more bicommunal than biregional nation, which is what we had all along. Perhaps the most valuable work of the Federal government will be the protection of the emerging bicommunality rather than the biregional character of the place.

The mamjor proponents of biregionality will be outside forces, and the major challenge is how we keep those under control. And here we will have to rely on the patriotism of the Cypriots and hope that they matured enough to be able to tell the difference between their interests and those of foreigners.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

The answer to your question is "RIGHT".! but this was stated from the beginning so I did not feel it was necessary to state the obvious every time. The TC's and GC's will only have equal power in the Upper House level. As I said before though VP, the lower house is only a loss for the TC's, if everything is decided along ethnic lines and not based on political ideology lines, which what will happen once the new country and system starts up running. Once people get use to the idea of having peace and the system is trusted, you will see people voting across ethnic lines into political ideology lines. This you will not be able to stop, which of course, is what should happen and will happen, that will unite Cypriots as one people, but divided along political ideology only. This is what I talked about the "shifting sand dunes" that will change the political scene at different times.

What happens if your guess work does not work for GCs and TCs? and that people continue to makes decision based upon ethnic lines discriminate and exploit each other, where would that leave us? they do not trust us and we do not trust them.

This is why, the north state may have to be split into 2-3 parts to accommodate most TC's to be in the TC state. Also, some of the returning GC land may also need to be in 2-3 pieces to accommodate the GC's who may want to be part of the GC state.

TCs would never agree to this you know full well they believe solely in a whole not parts there of, so dont even go there.

I would be very happy if the present lines remained as is, as long as the returning GC's (potential 200,000) have a right to vote in the state they live in. Are you prepared to accept this knowing that you will lose power in the Upper House as well as state seats in the local government. Of course, the north will gain more lower house seats, but some of those will be held by the GC's also. Is this really what you are suggesting, and if so, why are you so concern about TC's losing the Upper House seats.

The lines can be kept as they are with a system where by the balance is kept by a voting system of first 5GCs and first 5TCs past the post for the upper house seats. The whole electorate can vote for whom every they wish but according to the results the first 5 from both states go through. We have to and need to have equal respresentation and the right to say no in times of need, what makes you feel that we will block every decision that comes before the upper house if is for the benefit of everyone then whats to fear?

Me living far away is not really the issue. If there is no trust between the GC's and TC's, why is there a peace talks and not talks on agreed partition.? You really do not need to like love your neighbour, but you are expected to be polite to them unless they are complete assholes. So, be polite and get on with your life and they will do the same. I do not like the policies of the Republicans most of the time, but it does not mean I hate them. No, I work to change the political scenes to get them out of office instead................Democratically.!

IMHO those talks will follow these ones, there is absolutely no trust no vision or desire to unite, both sides neither have the mentality or ability to compromise for a solution. Your living so far away allows you the luxury of throwing us into the fire to see if we burn from a distnce in the hope that we survive and then you will test the waters, teres a big difference living and breath Cyprus than living with foreigners thousandds of miles away dont forget I should know.

You can also be great neighbours living on two sides of the divide side by side as 2 communities nowhere does it say we have to be intermingled, the last 3 4 years have show that the current divide is also workable.

TCs do not hate GCs they just do not trust them full stop.

You can say NO all you want, as long as it is done Democratically, and in order for you to do that, you need to maintain the 5 seats in the Upper House in the hands of the TC's, and in order for you to do that, the TC state has to be predominantly TC's, and in order for that to happen, almost all of the GC land will need to be given back to become a part of the GC state, which will mean there won't be need for the GC's to move into the TC state. It all works really, until everyone starts to vote across ethnic lines based only on political ideology, then it will not matter who is holding those seats in the Upper and Lower house from both the states. Then you will have a True Democracy in Cyprus like any other nation in Europe.

When I say we can say no I am referring to our right as the other side being in weight 50% of the say in any new solution put before us, just like the GCs we can reject it.

As for return as much land as possible or break into pieces the TC state you still have to convince me as I am not buying what appears to be your policy to give back the island to GCs.

Your Ethnic lines vs Political ideology is desirable but impossible in the early stages of a united Cyprus people on both sides of the divide have not matured enoug to adopt such a system and will both view it as a means of lossing what they have today.

[Kikapu]

What happens if your guess work does not work for GCs and TCs? and that people continue to makes decision based upon ethnic lines discriminate and exploit each other, where would that leave us? they do not trust us and we do not trust them.

That's the beauty of this plan, because it can accommodate both versions with the same rules, policy based on ethnic lines or political ideology lines, therefore I do not see where the risks are. It is completely interchangeable.

TCs would never agree to this you know full well they believe solely in a whole not parts there of, so dont even go there.

Then some TC's will need to move to the TC state if their present homes are to be part of the returned GC land back. Or, they can just remain there and vote for candidates in the GC state, except for the President/vice President, which will be across state lines.

The lines can be kept as they are with a system where by the balance is kept by a voting system of first 5GCs and first 5TCs past the post for the upper house seats. The whole electorate can vote for whom every they wish but according to the results the first 5 from both states go through. We have to and need to have equal respresentation and the right to say no in times of need, what makes you feel that we will block every decision that comes before the upper house if is for the benefit of everyone then whats to fear?

I'm not sure I understand the system you are talking about. I'll give you another one soon. Sorry for the delay.

IMHO those talks will follow these ones, there is absolutely no trust no vision or desire to unite, both sides neither have the mentality or ability to compromise for a solution. Your living so far away allows you the luxury of throwing us into the fire to see if we burn from a distnce in the hope that we survive and then you will test the waters, teres a big difference living and breath Cyprus than living with foreigners thousandds of miles away dont forget I should know.

I've already been the a bon fire party last year and therefore do not need to see anyone burn from a distance.!

If talks do fail, and at times this is what Talat's intentions seems to be in the hope of getting the north recognized, then he is a dreamer, so he better do his best to get the best results for the TC's during these talks, or else more bad days are ahead for the TC's.!

You can also be great neighbours living on two sides of the divide side by side as 2 communities nowhere does it say we have to be intermingled, the last 3 4 years have show that the current divide is also workable.

TCs do not hate GCs they just do not trust them full stop.

Well, after 50% of the north is returned back to the GC's, then they will decide if they want to be neighbours with you, for not wanting in having a United Cyprus in the first place. I believe Kifeas will start building the wall right away.!

When I say we can say no I am referring to our right as the other side being in weight 50% of the say in any new solution put before us, just like the GCs we can reject it.

Well, that's what this plan does, gives you 50% power to say NO to anything that you don't like. So far you have not given me anything concerning that will be blocked by the TC's which will harm them more than it will harm the GC's. My guess is, there will only be very few 5v5 ties that will need to be broken by the vice President/President.

As for return as much land as possible or break into pieces the TC state you still have to convince me as I am not buying what appears to be your policy to give back the island to GCs.

You are not giving anything away that belongs to you, only what belongs to others. You are getting your own state, which is what Denktash agreed to, was it not. This "BBF" was not my creation. I'm o0nly showing you a way to make the best of it that will be Democratic, 50% power, a veto power, and have a say so in your future. Did I miss anything.?

Your Ethnic lines vs Political ideology is desirable but impossible in the early stages of a united Cyprus people on both sides of the divide have not matured enoug to adopt such a system and will both view it as a means of lossing what they have today.

That's too bad, and you are correct of course that ethnic lines will be the order of the day over political ideology line in ther beginning, because if you can see the latter developing later, and I can, then there is no reason why today’s lines cannot be maintained. The only trouble is, in trying to convince the majority TC's to have the vision for the future and trust the GC's, which you do not seem to, therefore you will have to settle for a smaller TC state from the beginning, and then when the tide turns to have a policy based on Political Ideology, it would be too late for the TC state, because then you will have already set different state lines than what would have been, what they are today.!

[Kikapu]

Reading the plan we come across the same doubts that plague the current talks, especially in this phase where land and territory is on the table.

One way around the real and understandable fear of the TCs of being dominated by the GCs is to grant rights of residence in each state but without political rights. I know this will go against Kikapu's principle of democratic representation in the place of a citizen's residence. On the other hand, the TCs, having a state in which they will always have the upper hand regardless of numbers, will preserve the principle of bizonality as they see it. More on this furthe down.

The same system applies more or less across the EU now. For instance, I live in Greece, and have been here for 35 years but have no right to vote in any election other than the Euroelections. In a small place like CYprus where a citizen can be at his place of voting in an hour at the most this will be no big deal.

Looking at the issue of territory within the context of bizonality it must be settled in a manner which is fair, will not leave any lingering desires to "correct" the situation, minimise property claims, apportion coastline fairly, prevent future conflicts. To do all this the territory issue must deal with the ISLAND as opposed to the REPUBLIC's territory. This means that the British bases must be declared to be in the GC area and if and when the British leave the bases will revert to the GC consituent part. This prevents any future conflict over territory which at the time of the settlement formally belongs to neither side. It will also minimise the British ability to foment divisions in the future(we know how that works!).

In addition the TC side must sign a declaration that it desists from any territorial claims beyond its defined constituent state, this would calm down the legitimate fears ot the GCs that the TC-Turkish side has plans for the whole island.

In the day to day running of the federal state some realities will emerge. My opinion, (opinion, not the gospel, so take it easy!) is that the population will gravitate where there are jobs and active social life. No amount of artificial or planned "development" can supplant real economic and social activity. In the end it will be the three traditional centers which will attract most of the population- Nicosia, Limassol and Famagusta. This development will by necessity bring about certain peculiarities of politics. TCs will not have any representation in Limassol, but will have vital interests there and these will most likely be covered by parties that have the largest cross communal ties and cooperation. Reality will eventually establish a more bicommunal than biregional nation, which is what we had all along. Perhaps the most valuable work of the Federal government will be the protection of the emerging bicommunality rather than the biregional character of the place.

The mamjor proponents of biregionality will be outside forces, and the major challenge is how we keep those under control. And here we will have to rely on the patriotism of the Cypriots and hope that they matured enough to be able to tell the difference between their interests and those of foreigners.

Nikitas,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason why you are not able to vote on the Greek Island that you live on now, it's because you do not have a Greek citizenship. That's a little different in Cyprus, where all Cypriots will be citizens of Cyprus, therefore how can one be asked to drive an hour to another state to cast their vote to candidates that does not represent them, all the while they are tax payers to that state. There will be revolt against the TC state by the GC's if they are denied political equality, which is what the TC's have been asking for, to turn around and tell the GC's, you can live here, pay your taxes here, but you have absolutely no say so how we run this state. Then the GC's will want their property to be part of the GC state in that case, therefore the TC state will need to be reduced by 50% of what it is today.

I agree with you, that the British bases will need to be agreed on from the beginning as to who owns what in the event the Brits pull out. It may be wise for the GC's to give proportionate British Base land to the TC state from the beginning so that the TC's get their share up front, which will increase their state size also.

I also agree with you, that within a short time, TC's and GC's will just go where the jobs are on the island and will not be conditioned to stay in their own state. This is only natural, specially once the ethnic line parties become ideology political parties. Who cares who is in those government seats, as long as they represent your ideas.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

That's the beauty of this plan, because it can accommodate both versions with the same rules, policy based on ethnic lines or political ideology lines, therefore I do not see where the risks are. It is completely interchangeable.

This is not an answer that addresses the real problem with an imbalance your structure will go down like a lead balloon and GCs will take full control pushing us to one side yet again. The risks are there you just do not want to see them.

Then some TC's will need to move to the TC state if their present homes are to be part of the returned GC land back. Or, they can just remain there and vote for candidates in the GC state, except for the President/vice President, which will be across state lines.

Even with the return of GC land many TCs will have property that will be in the GC state this will mean the TC numbers will drop in the TC state whether its 28% or 18% the risk is the same.

I'm not sure I understand the system you are talking about. I'll give you another one soon. Sorry for the delay.

For the upper house we have a cross states vote and the top 5 GCs and top 5 TCs, so they are democratically selected by everyone one person one vote method.

The lower house is proportional representation according to who each state residents elect.

If talks do fail, and at times this is what Talat's intentions seems to be in the hope of getting the north recognized, then he is a dreamer, so he better do his best to get the best results for the TC's during these talks, or else more bad days are ahead for the TC's.!

Do you think if these talks breakdown anyone will take us seriously or want to attempt yet another round of talks which yet again could result in failure? People will start to realize what I have their is not uniting solution that both sides can agree to and that an agreed partition is the only real option we have.

Well, after 50% of the north is returned back to the GC's, then they will decide if they want to be neighbours with you, for not wanting in having a United Cyprus in the first place. I believe Kifeas will start building the wall right away.!

Thats their perogative, they can do whatever they wish in their country.

Well, that's what this plan does, gives you 50% power to say NO to anything that you don't like. So far you have not given me anything concerning that will be blocked by the TC's which will harm them more than it will harm the GC's. My guess is, there will only be very few 5v5 ties that will need to be broken by the vice President/President.

50% is just an enticement to commit suicide as it can easily be taken away just 1 seat will give GCs what they have always wanted total control of the whole island.

Lets hope there will never be a reason for TCs to say NO and that GCs do not try to change our major safeguard even when when guaranteed and that it becomes redundant. Unlikely but we can live in hope.

You are not giving anything away that belongs to you, only what belongs to others. You are getting your own state, which is what Denktash agreed to, was it not. This "BBF" was not my creation. I'm o0nly showing you a way to make the best of it that will be Democratic, 50% power, a veto power, and have a say so in your future. Did I miss anything.?

BBF with guaranteed political equality that will give us a say in our future and not allow GCs to brush us to one side is acceptable to most TCs.

That's too bad, and you are correct of course that ethnic lines will be the order of the day over political ideology line in ther beginning, because if you can see the latter developing later, and I can, then there is no reason why today’s lines cannot be maintained. The only trouble is, in trying to convince the majority TC's to have the vision for the future and trust the GC's, which you do not seem to, therefore you will have to settle for a smaller TC state from the beginning, and then when the tide turns to have a policy based on Political Ideology, it would be too late for the TC state, because then you will have already set different state lines than what would have been, what they are today.!

The TCs will never trust the GCs until there comes a time they can see GCs and live the reality they they do not disregard and push the TCs and include them in a united Cyprus.

For me the size of the state still does not matter because large or small it is still vunerable to GC dominance.

[Kikapu]

VP, go ahead and use your method if you like, just like the one below, just because you want to try and keep the north state at today’s lines, but don't come crying to me when 200,000 GC's and more move back to their properties and take complete control of your state legislator, state's law making body, because you will be outnumbered eventually, but look on the bright side, because you will have your 5 seats in the Upper House which is only a fraction of laws that goes through them that will not have much effect on the individual states. They are primarily to deal with international matters and balancing the national budgets and giving money to states for Federal Projects. The President will override both the Houses with Executive Orders that may include some of the things you are tying to protect, which is making sure trade with Turkey is not broken off. This is your biggest concern so far, at the risk of losing the control of the TC state's political power and by the way, don't be surprised when the GC's will sue the Federal Government for the Federal Election laws violating their Democratic and Human Rights by being disenfranchised for not being able to vote for their state's (TC state) Upper House members, assuming of course, you can even sell this idea to the GC's in the referendum, but then again, your signature says it all, doesn't it.? This plan finally exposed you for not wanting everything you have been demanding regarding “safeguards”, and now that you know there is a way, you make all the excuses to reject it. I'll go ahead and finish the rest of the plan for the benefit of others, because this plan does not involve partition, therefore you do not like it. There’s nothing worse than being a short sighted when the realities stares you in the face. Go ahead and lose the TC state just to save 5 seats in the Upper House, when you could have had both. Good luck.!

For the upper house we have a cross states vote and the top 5 GCs and top 5 TCs, so they are democratically selected by everyone one person one vote method.

The lower house is proportional representation according to who each state residents elect.

[Kifeas]

Reading the plan we come across the same doubts that plague the current talks, especially in this phase where land and territory is on the table.

One way around the real and understandable fear of the TCs of being dominated by the GCs is to grant rights of residence in each state but without political rights. I know this will go against Kikapu's principle of democratic representation in the place of a citizen's residence. On the other hand, the TCs, having a state in which they will always have the upper hand regardless of numbers, will preserve the principle of bizonality as they see it. More on this furthe down.

The same system applies more or less across the EU now. For instance, I live in Greece, and have been here for 35 years but have no right to vote in any election other than the Euroelections. In a small place like CYprus where a citizen can be at his place of voting in an hour at the most this will be no big deal.

Looking at the issue of territory within the context of bizonality it must be settled in a manner which is fair, will not leave any lingering desires to "correct" the situation, minimise property claims, apportion coastline fairly, prevent future conflicts. To do all this the territory issue must deal with the ISLAND as opposed to the REPUBLIC's territory. This means that the British bases must be declared to be in the GC area and if and when the British leave the bases will revert to the GC consituent part. This prevents any future conflict over territory which at the time of the settlement formally belongs to neither side. It will also minimise the British ability to foment divisions in the future(we know how that works!).

In addition the TC side must sign a declaration that it desists from any territorial claims beyond its defined constituent state, this would calm down the legitimate fears ot the GCs that the TC-Turkish side has plans for the whole island.

In the day to day running of the federal state some realities will emerge. My opinion, (opinion, not the gospel, so take it easy!) is that the population will gravitate where there are jobs and active social life. No amount of artificial or planned "development" can supplant real economic and social activity. In the end it will be the three traditional centers which will attract most of the population- Nicosia, Limassol and Famagusta. This development will by necessity bring about certain peculiarities of politics. TCs will not have any representation in Limassol, but will have vital interests there and these will most likely be covered by parties that have the largest cross communal ties and cooperation. Reality will eventually establish a more bicommunal than biregional nation, which is what we had all along. Perhaps the most valuable work of the Federal government will be the protection of the emerging bicommunality rather than the biregional character of the place.

The mamjor proponents of biregionality will be outside forces, and the major challenge is how we keep those under control. And here we will have to rely on the patriotism of the Cypriots and hope that they matured enough to be able to tell the difference between their interests and those of foreigners.

In other words, you are asking us to accept that a certain portion of Cyprus which among others will also be substantially larger than the TC demographical proportion, but also will encompass more than 50% the island’s coastlines, will be accepted with our signature to become of exclusive Turkish Cypriot ownership, since GCs will not be able to have a political saying in that part of their country. I am sorry but this is not re-unification, and is precisely the Turkish position on the form of solution we should agree on. It is an acceptance that in Cyprus there are two separate people, since each one will be the exclusive owner of a certain separate territory in which only themselves will posses the constituency rights, and which (two separate people,) in the same way that one day will come together and form a central government, in the form of a confederative partnership, will natural also have the right to dissolve it and each one take their ownership territory of the island and do whatever they wish with it.

The example you give with citizens of EU countries when living into the territories of a different to their own country, is totally irrelevant, since in this case we talk about citizens of different nation-states, regardless of them being members of the EU, whereas in the case of Cyprus we are all citizens of the same country. The denial of political rights on the place of someone’s permanent habitation is always based on the fact of the existence and /or possession of a different nation-state’s citizenship, to that of his permanent residency's one, and is not a characteristic of federations. To accept such an idea, is to accept that Cyprus will not have one citizenship, and consequently a truly one international personality, but two instead. It is one thing to accept that there should be a way in which the GCs will not become the majority in both states, so as not threaten or cancel out the concept of biozanality, and this may also become easily achieved though a further down reduction of the northern state’s territory; and another thing to say that a priori the constituent rights of such a state should be granted exclusively to one ethnic group or community.

Your idea is rejected without a second thought!

[zan]

VP, go ahead and use your method if you like, just like the one below, just because you want to try and keep the north state at today’s lines, but don't come crying to me when 200,000 GC's and more move back to their properties and take complete control of your state legislator, state's law making body, because you will be outnumbered eventually, but look on the bright side, because you will have your 5 seats in the Upper House which is only a fraction of laws that goes through them that will not have much effect on the individual states. They are primarily to deal with international matters and balancing the national budgets and giving money to states for Federal Projects. The President will override both the Houses with Executive Orders that may include some of the things you are tying to protect, which is making sure trade with Turkey is not broken off. This is your biggest concern so far, at the risk of losing the control of the TC state's political power and by the way, don't be surprised when the GC's will sue the Federal Government for the Federal Election laws violating their Democratic and Human Rights by being disenfranchised for not being able to vote for their state's (TC state) Upper House members, assuming of course, you can even sell this idea to the GC's in the referendum, but then again, your signature says it all, doesn't it.? This plan finally exposed you for not wanting everything you have been demanding regarding “safeguards”, and now that you know there is a way, you make all the excuses to reject it. I'll go ahead and finish the rest of the plan for the benefit of others, because this plan does not involve partition, therefore you do not like it. There’s nothing worse than being a short sighted when the realities stares you in the face. Go ahead and lose the TC state just to save 5 seats in the Upper House, when you could have had both. Good luck.!

For the upper house we have a cross states vote and the top 5 GCs and top 5 TCs, so they are democratically selected by everyone one person one vote method.

The lower house is proportional representation according to who each state residents elect.

Kofi Kikapu has left the building