Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Where is the GC input here???? why are they avoiding this thread???

Perhaps the GC's know that this plan gives the TC's 18% a solid 50% power with built in Veto vote, which replaces the advantages the TC's had in the 1960 Constitution, except this time you have a TC state, it is Democratic and they can no longer claim that majority should have the majority of the power. I'm sure they would prefer to have it in another way, which would be "Proportionate Representation" which means 82%-18% in the government. Perhaps they can see that my plan gives the TC's equal power in the Upper House despite being at 4:1 ratio to the GC's and are not too happy about it, except our good friend, DT. Perhaps they see something that you don't see. Perhaps this plan spoils your real intentions, which is partition, in which case, I cannot help you, but you can no longer claim that you do not want to be ruled by the GC's, because you do not need to be, because this plan gives you a 50-50 share in the government. All you have to do, is give back land that does not belong to you and agree to swap some TC land from the south for GC land in the north, and the rest will work itself out. One thing you will not be able to do, is to keep all the GC land in the north and the 5 seats. The choice lies entirely with you.!

Im surprised that none of the hardliners have not picked up on this thread. Piratis normally has something to add even if it is the standard banter, but nothing they either support it or hate it I have a feeling its the later seeing they are not responding.

[Kikapu]

VP,

I have shown you how to have 50% power at Federal State level with a veto power by a TC vice President/President, and if you do not want to put the work it requires to achieve it, then you should blame yourself for not taking the steps required to get what you want. There are no guarantees, that even if you had all 5 seats in the hands of the TC’s, that they will all vote the same way you want them to do in the Upper House. If that was the case, then there wouldn’t be need to have elections. You can just hand pick 5 TC’s and that will be that. You need to allow people to make the choice as to who should represent them. If there were 200,000 TC’s in the TC state and only 200 GC’s, and the TC’s would choose a GC that they really like and believe it will serve their state well, say someone like Bananiot voted in to one of the 5 seats, just because they like his/her politics, how can you stop that from happening. How can you guarantee me, that that wont happen. The truth is, you cannot, but in your heart you believe, that that will never happen, Bananiot or no Bananiot. Well, the same with me. I have given you my plan and if you follow it as I described, you will have all 5 Upper House seats in the TC’s hands. I cannot give you a certificate of guarantee, just as you cannot give me a certificate of guarantee, that some Bananiot kind of GC who is loved by the TC’s will not one day be voted by the TC’s.

Cypriots will need to take political positions based on political ideology eventually, which is what we do everyday anyway, rather than politics based on ethnic lines, which is what you are asking for, that is a disaster waiting to happen.......again, as we have found out from past experience, that we wanted to have a government based on ethnic lines. It just doesn’t work. We are either all Cypriots with different political ideology that from time to time it changes its positions, or that we are strictly separate from this practice of political ideology and are unison thinking along ethnic lines as me TC, you GC.!. If I may use a metaphor, True Democracy is much like a Desert Sand Dunes, and as with all sand dunes, they shift from time to time. The Sand Dunes represent Democracy, but the landscape constantly changes, and that change is what the political ideology change is in people. Nothing remains constant, because just as the Sand Dunes changes its shape and size, but it is still a Sand Dune and it is still a Democracy.

People who live in a Democracy are the ones with their own political ideology, and that is how the political lines are drawn that allow Freedom of Speech to be voiced, but if you insist that we draw the political lines based on ethnicity, you are then no longer talking about Democracy. I'm only interested in talking about Democracy and how best we can apply it, so that the minority TC's are on equal footing politically with the GC’s based on the "BBF" parameters we have been given. You keep asking for guarantees on how the TC's can keep their 5 seats in the Upper House. There are only two guarantees in Democracy and life in general. Taxes and Death.! If you are a Swiss, you are also guaranteed the trains will run on time.! The only guarantees you should ask for in a Democracy are Freedom of Speech and Human Rights, and all your constitutional rights, because seats in the government are not guaranteed to specific groups, because only in Dictatorships where the Dictator can guarantee anything, that you will do what ever he says or you are dead.!

The only way to secure your seats in the government is playing the best hand possible to ensure that you can maintain those seats in the most legal and Democratic way. But Democracy is neither free nor cheap. In fact, it is darn expensive, and not only in treasure, but at times, in blood also. So when you ask for guarantees in wanting to keep the 5 Upper seats in the hands of the TC's, you have to bear in mind what the costs will be. In any case, those Upper House 5 seats belong to the TC state and not to a TC community, because others well may be living in the TC state and as equal citizens, they too have rights to those 5 seats given to the TC state. As with all politics, or a game of Chess, you want to play the game in a way that you can get the best results for your efforts. Just like the shifting Sand Dunes, the Lower and Upper House seats will also try to shift, that will change the political landscape, and if that were to happen, it is not the end of the world, because in a Democracy and just like the Desert Sand Dunes, they will shift again going the other way, which will once again give another result and another political landscape at another time. This is Democracy at work and if we are to live in a Democratic Cyprus, this is what you need to accept, and if this is not what you are willing to accept, then we are wasting our time here, but if you also want to be part of Europe and the EU, then you really do not have any alternative for the New United Cyprus.

Ill try and clarify why giving back land does not necessarily mean we TCs will keep 5 seats in the upper house because this is of vital importance because we have lost the balance in the lower house on day 1.

The Lower House seats represent the "proportionate representation" of the people of Cyprus. there's no way around the imbalance of these seats, due to the fact that the GC's are 4:1 ratio majority (actually, that ratio is much higher at the moment and will explain more in my next post regarding numbers). The Upper House seats represents the states equally regardless of the population numbers.!

DT mentioned this if we reduce the north state to 20% some TCs will be left in the GC state they will not up sticks and move north as there would not be sufficient housing or desire. There for the number of TCs are reduced to say for example 100.000 all the GCs have to do is demand their right to move into the TC state as they already own property there within a very short period of time we will be outnumbered and the GCs will have achieved what they wanted total control of the whole island with TC effective input into their own future.

I did state from the beginning that almost all of the TC's will need to live in the TC state and that almost all of the GC land needs to be returned in order to safeguard those 5 seats. But it is interesting for you to state, that the TC's will not be willing to move to live in a TC state, but you believe all the GC's will move to the TC state just to tip the balance between the communities to "steal" your 5 seats.! Besides, that's not what DT said. He said, that due to possible lack of jobs in the north, that the TC's may have to move to the GC state to find a living, and if the TC's can't find a living in their TC state, then why would a GC move to the north state. How will they make a living if some TC's won't be able to, therefore don't expect many GC's to move to a state where they do not own property already. Makes no sense to me at all. The other interesting thing you have said, and I have been waiting for you to do this, is giving us the true numbers on the TC population in the north now, which is around 100,000 as I stated previously. It is this number that is causing you all the worry with my plan, but as I stated before and have not done so yet, was to show you how we can get this number to be around 250,000 TC's with voting rights. Look for my next post to cover this.

You are really giving the GCs a loaded gun and the means to shoot us in the back at the first opportunity by on the one hand depleating our numbers by getting us to give maximum land back and allowing GCs to settle in the TC state which will take away our only safeguard and hand the country to the GCs.

The only way you are going to give the G's a "loaded Gun" is by not giving most of their land back, because they would have right to return policy back to their land in the north. This is why it is important to give back most, if not all of their land back, even if it means in large parcels to reduce the need for them to move to a TC state. Once again, look for my next post on this matter.

Very clever but no TCs would accept such a deal their effective contribution to a united Cyprus has to be guaranteed. It cannot be left to chance as we do not trust or should we expected to the GCs and Im sure they do not trust us.

Any guarantees given to the TC's that is undemocratic, much like the 1960 constitution or Annan Plan, then it will be voted down by the GC's. They will not go down that path anymore, specially not when the RoC is now in the EU. Any guarantees that is unfair will be challenged at later stage even if it were to be granted now. You will really then expose yourself for trouble, specially if you do not give most of the GC land back to them.

I must emphasize I am not against returning land but only if it is going to ensure that we will not be pushed to one side by the GCs who are experts at manipulating and bending the rules only to suit themselves and make it look as if everything is ship shape and above board.

I'm curios though, as to just how much land are you willing to give back to the GC's and what guarantees are you asking for that will not violate anyone’s Democratic and Human Rights. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears, so lets hear them. In my opinion, the only way for the TC's not to be pushed aside as you put it, is to give most of the GC land back so that it will become part of the GC state. Otherwise, if you want to keep what AP proposed, then you will be playing into the hands of the GC's, and not only they will get their land back with freedom of movement, but also some, if not most of the power in the TC state.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

The Lower House seats represent the "proportionate representation" of the people of Cyprus. there's no way around the imbalance of these seats, due to the fact that the GC's are 4:1 ratio majority (actually, that ratio is much higher at the moment and will explain more in my next post regarding numbers). The Upper House seats represents the states equally regardless of the population numbers.!

So in other words we have lost the balance in the lower house whether it be 40 10 or 49 1 we cannot get anything agreed unless the GCs see fit.

Right or Wrong? (Please just say one or the other)

I did state from the beginning that almost all of the TC's will need to live in the TC state and that almost all of the GC land needs to be returned in order to safeguard those 5 seats. But it is interesting for you to state, that the TC's will not be willing to move to live in a TC state, but you believe all the GC's will move to the TC state just to tip the balance between the communities to "steal" your 5 seats.! Besides, that's not what DT said. He said, that due to possible lack of jobs in the north, that the TC's may have to move to the GC state to find a living, and if the TC's can't find a living in their TC state, then why would a GC move to the north state. How will they make a living if some TC's won't be able to, therefore don't expect many GC's to move to a state where they do not own property already. Makes no sense to me at all. The other interesting thing you have said, and I have been waiting for you to do this, is giving us the true numbers on the TC population in the north now, which is around 100,000 as I stated previously. It is this number that is causing you all the worry with my plan, but as I stated before and have not done so yet, was to show you how we can get this number to be around 250,000 TC's with voting rights. Look for my next post to cover this.

It will be impossible to get all TCs into the north state with a population of 256.000, handing back 50% of the land meaning we would be reduced to 18%, that leaving many TCs who own land in the 19% in the GC state, hence why I am stating our numbers will automatically be depleated and that will hand the GCs the opportunity they long for to use their numerical advantage all in the name of democracy GC style to move into the TC state just to gain those 5 seats and total control of the whole island which is their ultimate goal which you have handed them on a plate. The more land we hand back the more our numbers will drop. Why not keep the 2 states as they are and ask GCs if they want to live in the TC state, if they dont then they get compensation and if they do then we will see the real weight they will gain in the north. The same principle applies GCs if not trying to gain the 5 seats will stay in the GC state becuase they have built their lives there and allow the TCs to run their state without hinderence. those that really wish to return should be allowed to do so .

You have to understand a big big difference between you who live miles away from Cyprus and me who reside here on the island, you trust the GCs 100% and I dont so I need safeguards to guarantee my rights to having an effective contribution to the running of a united Cyprus.

The only way you are going to give the G's a "loaded Gun" is by not giving most of their land back, because they would have right to return policy back to their land in the north. This is why it is important to give back most, if not all of their land back, even if it means in large parcels to reduce the need for them to move to a TC state. Once again, look for my next post on this matter.

Dont agree but willing to read what you have to say.

Any guarantees given to the TC's that is undemocratic, much like the 1960 constitution or Annan Plan, then it will be voted down by the GC's. They will not go down that path anymore, specially not when the RoC is now in the EU. Any guarantees that is unfair will be challenged at later stage even if it were to be granted now. You will really then expose yourself for trouble, specially if you do not give most of the GC land back to them.

Then we have no deal if they challenge what they sign again renegging how can they be trusted certain safeguards are vital to a solution.

I'm curios though, as to just how much land are you willing to give back to the GC's and what guarantees are you asking for that will not violate anyone’s Democratic and Human Rights. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears, so lets hear them. In my opinion, the only way for the TC's not to be pushed aside as you put it, is to give most of the GC land back so that it will become part of the GC state. Otherwise, if you want to keep what AP proposed, then you will be playing into the hands of the GC's, and not only they will get their land back with freedom of movement, but also some, if not most of the power in the TC state.

Place it in which every shape you wish the TCs have to have the right to say no when they feel threatened, this can be a veto or guaranteed 5 seats in the upper house but if there is no safeguard to stop GCs from manipulating, exploiting and discrminating against the TCs willnever accept a solution, like the GCs we to have the right to say NO.

[Kifeas]

It will be impossible to get all TCs into the north state with a population of 256.000,....

TCs? 256,000? Since when have you become a community of rabbits? Not even the nation of rabbits that is called turkey, did not double in 30 years! Or you just accidentally have placed a (2) in front of the proper number?

[Viewpoint]

It will be impossible to get all TCs into the north state with a population of 256.000,....

TCs? 256,000? Since when have you become a community of rabbits? Not even the nation of rabbits that is called turkey, did not double in 30 years! Or you just accidentally have placed a (2) in front of the proper number?

Last consenus 256.000 population.

[Kifeas]

It will be impossible to get all TCs into the north state with a population of 256.000,....

TCs? 256,000? Since when have you become a community of rabbits? Not even the nation of rabbits that is called turkey, did not double in 30 years! Or you just accidentally have placed a (2) in front of the proper number?

Last consenus 256.000 population.

You probably counted the chicken too, in that "census."

[BirKibrisli]

Kikapu,
You deserve our admiration and gratitute for all the work you have put into this thread....I have read the whole thread in one sitting and I believe this power sharing agreement would work with slight ammendments to accomodate VP's main fear...The Federal upper house members (Senators) would be chosen by a quota system i assume...political parties would put up their candidates (max of 5) and the citizens in each state would vote for their prefered ticket,so to speak...so for every 20% of the vote the party would get 1 senator....Think about this...for the GCs to gain one Senator in the North their party would need to win 20% of the vote...To win 2 seats they will need 40% of the vote....

So what is stopping us to make it not 6 but 8 votes needed from the upper house to pass any bill....Or if you want to go all the way and make it watertight,we can say all 10 senators have to vote for any bill to make it law....Two questions...Would anyone really object to this on democratic grounds??? And would this satisfy VP's fears of domination by the GCs??????

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,
You deserve our admiration and gratitute for all the work you have put into this thread....I have read the whole thread in one sitting and I believe this power sharing agreement would work with slight ammendments to accomodate VP's main fear...The Federal upper house members (Senators) would be chosen by a quota system i assume...political parties would put up their candidates (max of 5) and the citizens in each state would vote for their prefered ticket,so to speak...so for every 20% of the vote the party would get 1 senator....Think about this...for the GCs to gain one Senator in the North their party would need to win 20% of the vote...To win 2 seats they will need 40% of the vote....

So what is stopping us to make it not 6 but 8 votes needed from the upper house to pass any bill....Or if you want to go all the way and make it watertight,we can say all 10 senators have to vote for any bill to make it law....Two questions...Would anyone really object to this on democratic grounds??? And would this satisfy VP's fears of domination by the GCs??????

Thanks Bir, and I will answer your post as soon as I get the time.!

Glad to see you back.!

[BirKibrisli]

Kikapu,
You deserve our admiration and gratitute for all the work you have put into this thread....I have read the whole thread in one sitting and I believe this power sharing agreement would work with slight ammendments to accomodate VP's main fear...The Federal upper house members (Senators) would be chosen by a quota system i assume...political parties would put up their candidates (max of 5) and the citizens in each state would vote for their prefered ticket,so to speak...so for every 20% of the vote the party would get 1 senator....Think about this...for the GCs to gain one Senator in the North their party would need to win 20% of the vote...To win 2 seats they will need 40% of the vote....

So what is stopping us to make it not 6 but 8 votes needed from the upper house to pass any bill....Or if you want to go all the way and make it watertight,we can say all 10 senators have to vote for any bill to make it law....Two questions...Would anyone really object to this on democratic grounds??? And would this satisfy VP's fears of domination by the GCs??????

Thanks Bir, and I will answer your post as soon as I get the time.!

Glad to see you back.!

[DT.]

Kikapu,
You deserve our admiration and gratitute for all the work you have put into this thread....I have read the whole thread in one sitting and I believe this power sharing agreement would work with slight ammendments to accomodate VP's main fear...The Federal upper house members (Senators) would be chosen by a quota system i assume...political parties would put up their candidates (max of 5) and the citizens in each state would vote for their prefered ticket,so to speak...so for every 20% of the vote the party would get 1 senator....Think about this...for the GCs to gain one Senator in the North their party would need to win 20% of the vote...To win 2 seats they will need 40% of the vote....

So what is stopping us to make it not 6 but 8 votes needed from the upper house to pass any bill....Or if you want to go all the way and make it watertight,we can say all 10 senators have to vote for any bill to make it law....Two questions...Would anyone really object to this on democratic grounds??? And would this satisfy VP's fears of domination by the GCs??????

with 8 senators required to vote a bill in you will reach a situation where 40,000 people in the north state or 150,000 in the south state can block a law.

The 40,000 people in the north state worry me. Imagine having something like stem cells research in Cyprus and 40,000 religious fanatics on this island decide to hold 1,000,000 people hostage with their whims.