Cyprus-Forum.com

[halil]

28 OF JANUARY PROPERTY ISSUE WILL BE LAID ON THE TABLE
TC's leader Mehmet Ali Talat and the Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias came together again today, for a second time this week, to continue the Cyprus peace talks.

The UN Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer was also present at the meeting.

During a press briefing after the completion of the talks, Mr. Downer couldn’t stop emphasizing how positive today’s talks had gone.
Informing the press about how the talks had gone today, the US Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer said that the two leaders had discussed the deadlock resolving mechanism, the hierarchy of norms and past pacts.

He said the two leaders will be meeting again on the 28th of January where they are going to start discussions on property.

Meanwhile Mr. Downer said that the two representatives of the Presidents Ozdil Nami and Yorgos Yakovu will be meeting next week from time to time where they will put the final touches on some issues relating to power sharing and governance.

The aides are also going to start preliminary discussions on the issue of property.

Downer said today’s meeting was extremely positive and there has been a lot of good progress.

‘The progress was the continuation of the positive atmosphere created from Monday’s meeting’, he added.

Asked a question about how optimistic he was about the negotiations process, Mr. Downer replied he was cautiously optimistic.
‘There are some days when the talks were good, and there are going to be days were it won’t be good’, he added.

He said it wasn’t the UN’s job to make comments but his personal assessment was that today’s meeting was positive and good progress was made.

He said he didn’t believe setting a timetable would have a positive impact on talks, but said it was important to maintain momentum, which could only be achieve through progress.

Downer said ‘finding a settlement is a very challenging task. One has to take into account that the Cyprus problem is a very complex one and that there are many political sensitivities involved. As someone who has been in politics I understood very well what those sensitivities are’.

‘No one should underestimate how difficult it is to find an agreement and reach an understanding,’ he added.


Downer also doing some contacts in Northern Cyprus to learn others views on the Cyprus Talks .Yesterday he and his team visited Rauf Denktash in his office .

[halil]

Remarks by Special Adviser of the Secretary-General Alexander Downer following 16 January meeting

Today’s discussion was about past acts, deadlock-resolving mechanisms and the hierarchy of norms, with a particular focus on deadlock-resolving mechanisms. This was a very positive meeting. Good progress was made at the meeting, and it built on the one of Monday, which was also a very positive meeting. Next week, specialists and the two representatives will be meeting from time to time in order to put the final touches to some of these issues. The representatives will also begin to have some preliminary discussion about the issue of property. The leaders themselves will next meet on 28 January in order to discuss the property question. Or [rather] begin discussions -- I don’t think it will all be over in one day -- on the property questions on that day. I do want to emphasize that today’s meeting , and the two leaders have wanted me to say this, was a very good meeting; it was a very positive meeting, and it builds on a good meeting that was held on Monday as well.

Question: Mr. Downer, on the basis of what has been said so far from the start of the negotiations until now, how optimistic are you that there could be a deal this year?

Answer: Well my view remains the same. I know other people say different things day in and day out and you know I can read the newspapers, I was going to say as well as anyone else can – I can’t, I have to wait until the translations come through -- but I can see what commentators and others say about all of this. But you won’t find me easily swayed. I remain of the view, as I’ve said for quite some time now, that there is a real possibility of reaching a settlement here. It’s an incredibly difficult task. Nobody should underestimate how hard it is, after so many years and such deep conflict to put together an agreement, but days like today just help to confirm the view that I’ve expressed on many occasions that I am cautiously optimistic . Now I say cautiously because this is very challenging, but I am cautiously optimistic. And meetings vary, some of them go less well than others. There is commentary from time to time which raises people’s expectations. It’s not my job to be a commentator on commentary or every single time there’s a meeting to suddenly change my mind. I try to give you a consistent view based on my own analysis of the situation, sitting in the discussions and also talking, of course, privately with the two sides, and quite extensively.

Question: But for this year?

Answer: Well, we will see. I mean, I have said, as you know, that it wouldn’t be helpful to the negotiations to impose a timeline on them. I mean, I just think that would not help to achieve a solution. You need to maintain momentum; I think you have heard me say this a hundred times now. You need to maintain momentum and you need to try to get through it as fast as you can, always taking into account essentially two things – the complexity of the issues, and they are very complex issues, they are very difficult issues, on the one hand. The second point I would make, on the other hand, is that they are politically very sensitive issues as well. I mean leaders have to take into account the political environment of Cyprus and that’s normal and natural. Being a politician myself of many years standing, I am the first person to be able to understand that.

Question: What’s the basis of this dialogue, because Mr. Christofias a few days ago said that Mr. Talat is describing a confederation?

Answer: Yes, well you know, I’m not going to put myself in a position of being a commentator on the public comments the leaders make. You can imagine that’s not really in my interests and the interests of the United Nations to get into that, I mean we leave the commentary to you guys. But I tell you what my personal assessment is of the situation. Now my personal assessment and the leaders’ assessment, and they have authorized me to say this, is that the meeting today was a very good meeting. Good progress was made today, and it builds on what was a good meeting on Monday. And it is not – you know, some meetings go better than others. No doubt there will be bad meetings in the future and there will be good meetings in the future; that will happen. The thing is to think about this in a consistent way, and to think about how the process is generally unfolding. I remain of the view as I have said all along, that I am cautiously optimistic about it - there are two words there not one. I’m neither cautious nor optimistic, I’m cautiously optimistic.

Question: When you say that you need to maintain momentum, what do you mean?

Answer: They need to keep making progress, gradually, slowly but surely keep making progress.

Question: That also includes confidence building measures?

Answer: Well, confidence building measures are obviously good and there’s no doubt about that. But particularly as the name suggests, it helps to build public confidence in the process and in the relationships between the two sides, between the north and the south, and that’s obviously an important thing to do. But confidence building measures themselves are not going to decide whether these two leaders achieve a settlement or whether they don’t; they are not going to decide that on their own. There are a large number of issues; you know what the issues are. There are a large number of issues, chapters, sub-chapters, headings, paragraphs, all of which have to be negotiated to achieve a settlement. So confidence building measures are good, a settlement would be even better. Thank you.

UNFICYP

[Tim Drayton]

I can't help thinking that the property question is going to become de-coupled from the Cyprus problem negotiations and is going to be contested in the courts instead through actions on the part of individual owners. The Orams case, in particular, is going to set a precedent that will apply everywhere in the EU, given that the European Court of Justice is going to rule on it.

[paliometoxo]

this talk is going to be a big problem to agree on land what happens to the stolen sold land in the north, or some of the land that tcs have very kindly kept all these years and even the priror owners belongings safe

[halil]

28 OF JANUARY PROPERTY ISSUE WILL BE LAID ON THE TABLE
TC's leader Mehmet Ali Talat and the Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias came together again today, for a second time this week, to continue the Cyprus peace talks.

The UN Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer was also present at the meeting.

During a press briefing after the completion of the talks, Mr. Downer couldn’t stop emphasizing how positive today’s talks had gone.
Informing the press about how the talks had gone today, the US Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer said that the two leaders had discussed the deadlock resolving mechanism, the hierarchy of norms and past pacts.

He said the two leaders will be meeting again on the 28th of January where they are going to start discussions on property.

Meanwhile Mr. Downer said that the two representatives of the Presidents Ozdil Nami and Yorgos Yakovu will be meeting next week from time to time where they will put the final touches on some issues relating to power sharing and governance.

The aides are also going to start preliminary discussions on the issue of property.

Downer said today’s meeting was extremely positive and there has been a lot of good progress.

‘The progress was the continuation of the positive atmosphere created from Monday’s meeting’, he added.

Asked a question about how optimistic he was about the negotiations process, Mr. Downer replied he was cautiously optimistic.
‘There are some days when the talks were good, and there are going to be days were it won’t be good’, he added.

He said it wasn’t the UN’s job to make comments but his personal assessment was that today’s meeting was positive and good progress was made.

He said he didn’t believe setting a timetable would have a positive impact on talks, but said it was important to maintain momentum, which could only be achieve through progress.

Downer said ‘finding a settlement is a very challenging task. One has to take into account that the Cyprus problem is a very complex one and that there are many political sensitivities involved. As someone who has been in politics I understood very well what those sensitivities are’.

‘No one should underestimate how difficult it is to find an agreement and reach an understanding,’ he added.


Downer also doing some contacts in Northern Cyprus to learn others views on the Cyprus Talks .Yesterday he and his team visited Rauf Denktash in his office .

PR TALAT MADE STATEMENTS ON NEGOTIATIONS BEFORE LEAVING FOR ANKARA

President Mehmet Ali Talat has said that Turkish Cypriot Side put forward new proposals at today’s meeting on the issue of deadlock solving mechanisms.
He said that new proposals will strengthen the hand of the Turkish Cypriot Side.
Speaking to reporters at Ercan Airport before departing for the Turkish capital, President Mehmet Ali Talat said that he will start discussing the issue of property when he meets again with his Greek Cypriot counterpart on the 28th of January.

Explaining that discussions on the chapter of governance and power sharing was completed at today’s meeting, Talat said that they responded today to Greek Cypriot proposals on deadlock resolving mechanisms put forward last Monday.

He said that the two special aides, Ozdil Nami and Yorgo Yakovu will be meeting next week to put the final touches on governance and power sharing and to launch preliminary discussions on the property issue.

Pointing out that all aspects of the property issue will be taken up under the chapter of property; Talat said that talks will start on the principles of property.

He also underlined that the issue of property was to be solved as part of a comprehensive solution to the Cyprus Problem.

Briefing reporters about his schedule in Ankara, the President said that he will try to maximize his stay by meeting with his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Foreign Minister Ali Babacan,Minister for Culture and Tourism Ertugrul Gunay and the Turkish General Chief of Staff Basbug.

Asked whether he will be meeting with the UN Secretary General who is Ankara, President Talat said that such a meeting was not planned but that he would not turn down a meeting with the UN Chief if the offer came.


President Talat will receive the honorary medal for his contributions to the ‘TURKSOY’ - the Joint Administration of Turkic Culture and Art.

[wallace]

28 OF JANUARY PROPERTY ISSUE WILL BE LAID ON THE TABLE
TC's leader Mehmet Ali Talat and the Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias came together again today, for a second time this week, to continue the Cyprus peace talks.

The UN Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer was also present at the meeting.

During a press briefing after the completion of the talks, Mr. Downer couldn’t stop emphasizing how positive today’s talks had gone.
Informing the press about how the talks had gone today, the US Secretary General’s Special Advisor for Cyprus Alexander Downer said that the two leaders had discussed the deadlock resolving mechanism, the hierarchy of norms and past pacts.

He said the two leaders will be meeting again on the 28th of January where they are going to start discussions on property.

Meanwhile Mr. Downer said that the two representatives of the Presidents Ozdil Nami and Yorgos Yakovu will be meeting next week from time to time where they will put the final touches on some issues relating to power sharing and governance.

The aides are also going to start preliminary discussions on the issue of property.

Downer said today’s meeting was extremely positive and there has been a lot of good progress.

‘The progress was the continuation of the positive atmosphere created from Monday’s meeting’, he added.

Asked a question about how optimistic he was about the negotiations process, Mr. Downer replied he was cautiously optimistic.
‘There are some days when the talks were good, and there are going to be days were it won’t be good’, he added.

He said it wasn’t the UN’s job to make comments but his personal assessment was that today’s meeting was positive and good progress was made.

He said he didn’t believe setting a timetable would have a positive impact on talks, but said it was important to maintain momentum, which could only be achieve through progress.

Downer said ‘finding a settlement is a very challenging task. One has to take into account that the Cyprus problem is a very complex one and that there are many political sensitivities involved. As someone who has been in politics I understood very well what those sensitivities are’.

‘No one should underestimate how difficult it is to find an agreement and reach an understanding,’ he added.


Downer also doing some contacts in Northern Cyprus to learn others views on the Cyprus Talks .Yesterday he and his team visited Rauf Denktash in his office .

PR TALAT MADE STATEMENTS ON NEGOTIATIONS BEFORE LEAVING FOR ANKARA

President Mehmet Ali Talat has said that Turkish Cypriot Side put forward new proposals at today’s meeting on the issue of deadlock solving mechanisms.
He said that new proposals will strengthen the hand of the Turkish Cypriot Side.
Speaking to reporters at Ercan Airport before departing for the Turkish capital, President Mehmet Ali Talat said that he will start discussing the issue of property when he meets again with his Greek Cypriot counterpart on the 28th of January.

Explaining that discussions on the chapter of governance and power sharing was completed at today’s meeting, Talat said that they responded today to Greek Cypriot proposals on deadlock resolving mechanisms put forward last Monday.

He said that the two special aides, Ozdil Nami and Yorgo Yakovu will be meeting next week to put the final touches on governance and power sharing and to launch preliminary discussions on the property issue.

Pointing out that all aspects of the property issue will be taken up under the chapter of property; Talat said that talks will start on the principles of property.

He also underlined that the issue of property was to be solved as part of a comprehensive solution to the Cyprus Problem.

Briefing reporters about his schedule in Ankara, the President said that he will try to maximize his stay by meeting with his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Foreign Minister Ali Babacan,Minister for Culture and Tourism Ertugrul Gunay and the Turkish General Chief of Staff Basbug.

Asked whether he will be meeting with the UN Secretary General who is Ankara, President Talat said that such a meeting was not planned but that he would not turn down a meeting with the UN Chief if the offer came.


President Talat will receive the honorary medal for his contributions to the ‘TURKSOY’ - the Joint Administration of Turkic Culture and Art.

Principles??? Screw Talat and the Turks..........property is not negotiable. We will get it back or get compensated by todays standards Non negotiable!

[Nikitas]

Tim said:

"The Orams case, in particular, is going to set a precedent that will apply everywhere in the EU, given that the European Court of Justice is going to rule on it."

Got to be careful with lawyers, and judges are lawyers who managed to get the better paying jobs. The Orams case decides something of general EU legal interest, namely whether the judgements of a sovereign EU nation are binding on parts of its territory it is not currently controlling. It is not a judgement on the substance of the case itself. If the judgement is in favor of the GC landowner then the Orams can and probably will challenge the judgement through the appeals process.

Now, to get to the thread topic. The properties issue relates to individual property. It is not the same as the territory issue, ie how much territory of the island will be allocated to each federal entity. One wonders why this issue was put ahead of the overall territory question. From a reasoanable person's point of view it would seem more useful to first decide how much territory each federal entity will control and then go on to the property issue, but may be my thinking is flawed on that one.

[Tim Drayton]

Tim said:

"The Orams case, in particular, is going to set a precedent that will apply everywhere in the EU, given that the European Court of Justice is going to rule on it."

Got to be careful with lawyers, and judges are lawyers who managed to get the better paying jobs. The Orams case decides something of general EU legal interest, namely whether the judgements of a sovereign EU nation are binding on parts of its territory it is not currently controlling. It is not a judgement on the substance of the case itself. If the judgement is in favor of the GC landowner then the Orams can and probably will challenge the judgement through the appeals process.

Now, to get to the thread topic. The properties issue relates to individual property. It is not the same as the territory issue, ie how much territory of the island will be allocated to each federal entity. One wonders why this issue was put ahead of the overall territory question. From a reasoanable person's point of view it would seem more useful to first decide how much territory each federal entity will control and then go on to the property issue, but may be my thinking is flawed on that one.

I take your point, and my wording was clumsy. The European Court of Justice is not going to rule on the substance of the case, true. But then, the Orams' defence in the English court is based more on a technicality rather than substance, in challenging the applicability of the Cyprus court's ruling on the grounds that the acquis communautaire is suspended in the north of Cyprus. If we look at Juliane Kokkot's opinion:

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 2&cat_id=1

But Advocate General of the Court of Justice of the European Communities, Juliane Kokkot, in her opinion said a judgment issued by a court of the Republic of Cyprus must be recognised and enforced in the other EU member states, even where it relates to land in the occupied areas.

Protocol 10 did not exclude the application of the EU Regulation on Jurisdiction and the Recognition and Enforcement of Judgments in a dispute that was before the United Kingdom courts, which related to the northern part of Cyprus.

“A judgment of a court in the Republic of Cyprus must be recognised and enforced in other member states, even where it relates to land in northern Cyprus,” Kokkot said in her opinion, which is not binding on the Court of Justice.

Kokott said the suspension of Community law in the northern area of Cyprus was intended to enable the Republic of Cyprus to accede to the EU, following the failure of the negotiations on reunification to reach a successful conclusion in time for accession.

The intention was to avoid a situation in which the Republic of Cyprus, as a Member State, infringed Community law because it could not ensure the application of Community law throughout the territory of that state, Kokkot’s opinion said.

The enforcement of the Nicosia court judgement in the United Kingdom was also not precluded by the military occupation in northern Cyprus, she added.

The dispute between Apostolides and the Orams couple was civil in nature. “It is only claims for damages against public authorities that are excluded by the regulation, and the present case does not involve claims of that kind,” Kokkot said.

and assume, as is likely, that the court will pass judgment along these lines - and that this judgement will probably be upheld if appealed - this will surely set a precedent that will be valid in courts anywhere in the European Union. The points in the above quote entail serious consequences. It will mean that if anybody obtains a judgement in Cyprus similar to the one Apostolides obtained, it will then automatically be enforceable anywhere in the European Union.

It appears that, failing a miracle, the current talks are going to go nowhere and de facto partition will continue while de jure the whole of Cyprus will remain an EU member state. Under these circumstances, is it not likely that more and more land owners will resort to civil action to defend their rights as best they can on an individual basis?

[paaul12]

tim tells us

"The Orams case, in particular, is going to set a precedent that will apply everywhere in the EU, given that the European Court of Justice is going to rule on it."

punktlich tells us

I met today with counsel for the Orams, one of whom is assisting me on another matter. Counsel are optimistic that the ECJ will reject the opinion of the AG, which it was claimed is "naive, internally inconsistent and unsupported in law".



For what it is worth.



This is a political case and as in all such cases the outcome depends on relative status of parties. Most legal systems work well between equals: the test is how they work between unequals. Even the US and English systems do not work well at extremes. I have heard of quiet ex parte demarches made to judges where promotion to a higher bench is a goal.



But the Orams case goes only to the cross-border enforceability of ROC judgments as to TRNC land. within the EU and probably (Lugano Convention) the EEA and Switzerland. Even a win in Luxembourg will not free occupiers & owners of NC property from the need to engage in sophisticated asset protection and estate/succession plans.

i know who i will be taking notice off

[Oracle]

Is it really so unheard of, that Turk-TCs can do the right thing and stop holding on to other people's property ...

Really, most of them have lived in the west long enough to realise this is not acceptable behaviour.

Stealing others' homes ? My goodness what kind of people are they ....